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It's like AT ALPA is trying to burn their undeserved lottery ticket...

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redflyer65 said:
Both of your arguements make no sense. Gary bought out a competitor with minimal outlay, and picked up ATL, DCA, and more LGA slots in the meantime. Things that happen when one coporation buys another...they get the stuff. This has absolutely nothing to do with the labor, on either side.

I'm glad in your second statement you agree to the huge pay dispairity between AAI and SW...NOW. This has nothing to do with a history lesson, but more to do with contract differences on Sept. 27th. Like night and day.
Click to expand...

Recent arbitration doesn't seem to care about pay differences. I think you should just roll the dice and see how arbitration turns out for you. You seem pretty confident in the end result.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
So why exactly do I have to take a 30% hit in relative seniority and not be able to upgrade on the airframes we brought over when 2600 SWA FO's will upgrade before me?I'm a fairly senior AT FO,in fact 75 numbers from upgrade.I've been in the game 20 years,on my 5th airline,and with no growth will probably never upgrade before I retire.Personally,at this stage of the game,I don't care about the seat;I've been there before.I know SWA is a great airline and I'll be proud to be a part of the team but I really don't understand why any SW FO would be angry.
 
All the gains are stacked on the AAI side, every single one of them. Career expectations and 'fair and equitable' cut both ways. Thanks for asking.

RF
 
GearUpJammer said:
So why exactly do I have to take a 30% hit in relative seniority and not be able to upgrade on the airframes we brought over when 2600 SWA FO's will upgrade before me?I'm a fairly senior AT FO,in fact 75 numbers from upgrade.I've been in the game 20 years,on my 5th airline,and with no growth will probably never upgrade before I retire.Personally,at this stage of the game,I don't care about the seat;I've been there before.I know SWA is a great airline and I'll be proud to be a part of the team but I really don't understand why any SW FO would be angry.
Click to expand...

Because you are getting AAI Captain rates by coming over to the SWAPA contract...plus an additional 10hr more on top of that, and not have to pay out the arse for health care. But I guess that doesn't count for much.
 
redflyer65 said:
All the gains are stacked on the AAI side, every single one of them. Career expectations and 'fair and equitable' cut both ways. Thanks for asking.

RF
Click to expand...
Thanks for the response RF.Are you a CA or FO?How do these gains affect you personally?Is my 30% hit not enough for you?
 
redflyer65 said:
Because you are getting AAI Captain rates by coming over to the SWAPA contract...plus an additional 10hr more on top of that, and not have to pay out the arse for health care. But I guess that doesn't count for much.
Click to expand...
With all due respect,it counts for alot.I just don't understand the justification for such a big hit in relative seniority as compared to recent mergers.I would like to hear the justification from the AAI MC as well.I don't understand why any SW FO would be unhappy with the proposal.
 
GearUpJammer said:
I've been there before.I know SWA is a great airline and I'll be proud to be a part of the team but I really don't understand why any SW FO would be angry.
Click to expand...

They're not-it's called negotiating in public. Do what it takes to get AT doods to vote yes in an effort to avoid Arby's.
 
I get a single digit gain. The facts are that with a pilot group the size of 6000 vs 1700, the whole thing doesn't move the system seniority that much for the SW pilots. That is not meant as a slight, or even a complaint, just the mathematics.

Whatever seniority hit you take is unfortunate, but it's the reality of a smaller carrier being bought buy one that's 3.5 times the size. That's a massive difference just in company size only.

These two companies are so different on so many metrics (size, contracts, bases, even the 717). The only good fit is the 737, and very little overlap on routes. And the slots that the SW corporation gets..

I would say the arbitor will most likely look at this ISL, maybe tweek it a little and toss it on the table. And for those that say they aren't supposed to know what's going on here, I would bet you they've already seen it. I know that they have already been very interested in what it looked like.

RF
 
GearUpJammer said:
So why exactly do I have to take a 30% hit in relative seniority and not be able to upgrade on the airframes we brought over when 2600 SWA FO's will upgrade before me?I'm a fairly senior AT FO,in fact 75 numbers from upgrade.I've been in the game 20 years,on my 5th airline,and with no growth will probably never upgrade before I retire.Personally,at this stage of the game,I don't care about the seat;I've been there before.I know SWA is a great airline and I'll be proud to be a part of the team but I really don't understand why any SW FO would be angry.
Click to expand...

In YOUR case this deal is a no-brainer.

You're late in the game and you just got your Airtran captain pay for the rest of your career.

Stay at Airtran and your company is down $18 million in 2011.

I really don't care how you vote or even if you vote. Just telling you how I see it from your perspective.

You gotta understand. If there is a WN FO in your position he just threw the rest of his career away. Now, unless there is explosive growth, he'll never upgrade and he'll NEVER see your 30% bump cause it's really not evident until 2020.

Plain and simple - this deal sucks for both sides.

Gup
 
GearUpJammer- since you're the latest to throw out the mathematically brilliant 30% loss of relative seniority- can you tell me what your seniority loss would be if you got your wet dream of DOH?
And do that same math for your #1 guy and your bottom guy. If you dont mind.
Please and thank you.
 
GuppyWN said:
In YOUR case this deal is a no-brainer.

You're late in the game and you just got your Airtran captain pay for the rest of your career.

Stay at Airtran and your company is down $18 million in 2011.

I really don't care how you vote or even if you vote. Just telling you how I see it from your perspective.

You gotta understand. If there is a WN FO in your position he just threw the rest of his career away. Now, unless there is explosive growth, he'll never upgrade and he'll NEVER see your 30% bump cause it's really not evident until


Plain and simple - this deal sucks for both sides.

Gup
Click to expand...
Fair enough Gup
 
redflyer65 said:
I get a single digit gain. The facts are that with a pilot group the size of 6000 vs 1700, the whole thing doesn't move the system seniority that much for the SW pilots. That is not meant as a slight, or even a complaint, just the mathematics.

Whatever seniority hit you take is unfortunate, but it's the reality of a smaller carrier being bought buy one that's 3.5 times the size. That's a massive difference just in company size only.

These two companies are so different on so many metrics (size, contracts, bases, even the 717). The only good fit is the 737, and very little overlap on routes. And the slots that the SW corporation gets..

I would say the arbitor will most likely look at this ISL, maybe tweek it a little and toss it on the table. And for those that say they aren't supposed to know what's going on here, I would bet you they've already seen it. I know that they have already been very interested in what it looked like.

RF
Click to expand...

You have the same sized planes. This isn't AK merging with DL, with AK having the 737-900 as the largest plane. This is AT and SWA merging lists, with both having 737-700s as the largest plane. Paychecks don't matter to arbitrators--See lower paid Colgan Dash Captains flying Dash-8-400s the same size as CRJ-900s at the others, getting merged in with PNCL and Mesaba CRJ Captains.

If the Airtran guys choose arbitration, I would think the arbitrators will place the Airtran guys higher up on the list, and there certainly wouldn't be 670 or so Airtran guys at the bottom, just above the poolies and 80 hired at SWA after the merger announcement. The Airtran guys would probably get a better deal seniority wise (which is forever), and the pay would eventually follow. This deal is a done deal on Wall Street, and I don't see anyone giving in on the management side. The simple finger to point would be at the arbitrator, and then they would move on with business and life. It will be interesting to watch what the Airtran MC and negotiators do, along with the MEC. It seems like they will be looking for a better deal.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
waveflyer said:
GearUpJammer- since you're the latest to throw out the mathematically brilliant 30% loss of relative seniority- can you tell me what your seniority loss would be if you got your wet dream of DOH?
And do that same math for your #1 guy and your bottom guy. If you dont mind.
Please and thank you.
Click to expand...
Don't know Wave,but I never said I wanted DOH.
 
GuppyWN said:
In YOUR case this deal is a no-brainer.

You're late in the game and you just got your Airtran captain pay for the rest of your career.

Stay at Airtran and your company is down $18 million in 2011.

I really don't care how you vote or even if you vote. Just telling you how I see it from your perspective.

You gotta understand. If there is a WN FO in your position he just threw the rest of his career away. Now, unless there is explosive growth, he'll never upgrade and he'll NEVER see your 30% bump cause it's really not evident until 2020.

Plain and simple - this deal sucks for both sides.

Gup
Click to expand...

Seniority is forever Gup. You are hoping the Airtran Captains will take the deal, even though they might get a better deal via an arbitrator. What's the worst that could happen if the Airtran MEC holds out for a better deal? Do you really think the CEO would pull the plug this late in the game, after Wall Street approved of the deal? Doubtful. But, I can see why you would want this to go through, and avoid arbitration. You don't want someone or a panel with no conflicts of interest to decide something so important, to you and the Airtran pilots.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
GearUpJammer said:
Don't know Wave,but I never said I wanted DOH.
Click to expand...

Seniority is forever. There may be more mergers in your future, but the next group may decide to go the arbitration route and you will still be stuck with whatever you decide here.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

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