It's like AT ALPA is trying to burn their undeserved lottery ticket...

[Ty Webb]

check this out - this AT guy actually likes the deal - says Vote YES - and he looks junior

Can't believe it....

http://tinyurl.com/airtranyesvote

:laugh: Classic 1990's rickroll . . . . . . . . Well played. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[redflyer65]

Score...thanks for keeping it civil.

What you are failing to mention in your ownership opinion is this:

When SWA the Company entered into the agreement to bring AAI into the fold ("acquired" as some of your guys like to say), they also accepted/inherited the AirTran CBA in its entirety including all of the scope provisions contained therein. It is those scope protections that protect a pilot group and their years of seniority and longevity. What if the new mega carrier known as Delta/Northwest decided to acquire SWA? Would you not expect your years of service to SWA to be protected just like we at AAI do? Would you not expect a fair and equitable SLI that results in you being viewed as a peer amongst your new fellow pilots rather than a 2nd class citizen?

So you view fair and equitable as a..."liability"?

To say AAI brought "nothing to the deal" is preposterous. It smacks of elitism.

Some would say that what AAI brings to the table is for the benefit of SWA the Company, not SWAPA the pilot group and therefore SWAPA the pilot group gains nothing, but A-ALPA the pilot group gains substantially. Monetarily...yes. But that is between SWA the Company and A-ALPA. Those gains are for doing the exact same job as a SWAPA pilot. Should an AAI pilot have to give up 32% seniority for doing the same job as a SWAPA pilot?

Has any Harm come to a SWAPA pilot in this AIP? What does a SWAPA pilot gain? How about the critcal mass that comes with the overnight addition of 140 aircraft to the combined fleet along with the 50 options, the latter of which equals growth, the former of which ensures that the new combined company has the mass and muscle to hold their own against the new behemoths of the industry: the aforementioned DAL/NWA, the new UAL/CAL, and possibly a 3rd titan in the form of AMR/???.

So, yes...let's please keep to the facts when discussing what's really happening, thanks.

Your almost right Don. The AAI CBA brings nothing to the SW pilots, but for some reason the AAI pilots would love to be under the SWAPA contract.

The check says Southwest Airlines, but the CBA was acquired over years of hard work from SWAPA.

AAI corporate brought the planes and the gates...that is a corporate business deal only..has nothing to do with the CBA's or the pilot groups.

If you are trying to justify this as a merger of equals like NW/DL, I would say you aren't even in the same ballpark. The exact reason people from AAI would try sooo hard to get hired at SW...just like we all did.

RF

 

[dicko]

a liabilty caused by law to be fair and equitable.

Nice world view. Although it does sum up SWAPA's moral stance pretty well.

Maybe you should put that quote in SWAPA's charter. If you're looking for some examples to help with the perfect wording, I'd head straight for The Klan or maybe Darth Vaders personal poetry collection.

.

 

[kwick]

Don, your where civil so shall I: Airtran aircraft became SWA aircraft on date of corporate closing. Right now, AT pilots are flying SWA jets. SWA jets bought off the backs of SWA pilot labor which banked the cash to make this deal happen.

The AT pilots brought nothing to the deal except a liabilty caused by law to be fair and equitable.

SWA pilots however bring our contract which AT pilots want, not the other way around. Please keep to the facts when discussing whats really happening, thanks.

If AT brings nothing to the table, you better call GK and ask him
why he would spend good money to buy them.

What was SW's pay, after 15 or so years of existence. About the
same as AT, and probably less compared to the rates of other airlines at that time.

 

[redflyer65]

If AT brings nothing to the table, you better call GK and ask him
why he would spend good money to buy them.

What was SW's pay, after 15 or so years of existence. About the
same as AT, and probably less compared to the rates of other airlines at that time.

Both of your arguements make no sense. Gary bought out a competitor with minimal outlay, and picked up ATL, DCA, and more LGA slots in the meantime. Things that happen when one coporation buys another...they get the stuff. This has absolutely nothing to do with the labor, on either side.

I'm glad in your second statement you agree to the huge pay dispairity between AAI and SW...NOW. This has nothing to do with a history lesson, but more to do with contract differences on Sept. 27th. Like night and day.

 

[LearLove]

:laugh: Classic 1990's rickroll . . . . . . . . Well played. Thanks for the laugh.

thanks Ty - speaking of rick roll, can anyone spot the airline pilot in this pic?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Bball_rickroll_collage.JPG

guese he's either retired or flying over 60.

 

[General Lee]

Both of your arguements make no sense. Gary bought out a competitor with minimal outlay, and picked up ATL, DCA, and more LGA slots in the meantime. Things that happen when one coporation buys another...they get the stuff. This has absolutely nothing to do with the labor, on either side.

I'm glad in your second statement you agree to the huge pay dispairity between AAI and SW...NOW. This has nothing to do with a history lesson, but more to do with contract differences on Sept. 27th. Like night and day.

Recent arbitration doesn't seem to care about pay differences. I think you should just roll the dice and see how arbitration turns out for you. You seem pretty confident in the end result.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[GearUpJammer]

So why exactly do I have to take a 30% hit in relative seniority and not be able to upgrade on the airframes we brought over when 2600 SWA FO's will upgrade before me?I'm a fairly senior AT FO,in fact 75 numbers from upgrade.I've been in the game 20 years,on my 5th airline,and with no growth will probably never upgrade before I retire.Personally,at this stage of the game,I don't care about the seat;I've been there before.I know SWA is a great airline and I'll be proud to be a part of the team but I really don't understand why any SW FO would be angry.

 

[redflyer65]

All the gains are stacked on the AAI side, every single one of them. Career expectations and 'fair and equitable' cut both ways. Thanks for asking.

RF

 

[redflyer65]

So why exactly do I have to take a 30% hit in relative seniority and not be able to upgrade on the airframes we brought over when 2600 SWA FO's will upgrade before me?I'm a fairly senior AT FO,in fact 75 numbers from upgrade.I've been in the game 20 years,on my 5th airline,and with no growth will probably never upgrade before I retire.Personally,at this stage of the game,I don't care about the seat;I've been there before.I know SWA is a great airline and I'll be proud to be a part of the team but I really don't understand why any SW FO would be angry.

Because you are getting AAI Captain rates by coming over to the SWAPA contract...plus an additional 10hr more on top of that, and not have to pay out the arse for health care. But I guess that doesn't count for much.

 

[GearUpJammer]

All the gains are stacked on the AAI side, every single one of them. Career expectations and 'fair and equitable' cut both ways. Thanks for asking.

RF

Thanks for the response RF.Are you a CA or FO?How do these gains affect you personally?Is my 30% hit not enough for you?

 

[GearUpJammer]

Because you are getting AAI Captain rates by coming over to the SWAPA contract...plus an additional 10hr more on top of that, and not have to pay out the arse for health care. But I guess that doesn't count for much.

With all due respect,it counts for alot.I just don't understand the justification for such a big hit in relative seniority as compared to recent mergers.I would like to hear the justification from the AAI MC as well.I don't understand why any SW FO would be unhappy with the proposal.

 

[jonjuan]

I've been there before.I know SWA is a great airline and I'll be proud to be a part of the team but I really don't understand why any SW FO would be angry.

They're not-it's called negotiating in public. Do what it takes to get AT doods to vote yes in an effort to avoid Arby's.

 

[redflyer65]

I get a single digit gain. The facts are that with a pilot group the size of 6000 vs 1700, the whole thing doesn't move the system seniority that much for the SW pilots. That is not meant as a slight, or even a complaint, just the mathematics.

Whatever seniority hit you take is unfortunate, but it's the reality of a smaller carrier being bought buy one that's 3.5 times the size. That's a massive difference just in company size only.

These two companies are so different on so many metrics (size, contracts, bases, even the 717). The only good fit is the 737, and very little overlap on routes. And the slots that the SW corporation gets..

I would say the arbitor will most likely look at this ISL, maybe tweek it a little and toss it on the table. And for those that say they aren't supposed to know what's going on here, I would bet you they've already seen it. I know that they have already been very interested in what it looked like.

RF

 

[redflyer65]

They're not-.

You have NO idea about what you're talking about. I don't agree with their position on this either.

RF