Integration Day

[wolfpackpilot]

Side note to Pack: Seven times to China bro?

Plus 3 to Japan, 1 to Korea, Vietnam, Australia, Thailand. 2 times to India... But what do I know, Im just an arrogant Jet God.

For all you knuckle heads at NJA who think you've got this international thing in the bag... go ask the guys who came over here first and see what they tell ya. Im flying with one now and I know what he'll tell you.

 

[RNObased]

Plus 3 to Japan, 1 to Korea, Vietnam, Australia, Thailand. 2 times to India... But what do I know, Im just an arrogant Jet God.

For all you knuckle heads at NJA who think you've got this international thing in the bag... go ask the guys who came over here first and see what they tell ya. Im flying with one now and I know what he'll tell you.

Name calling Wolf?? Nice..

Most of us realize that there is more to flying to some of the places you guys fly, then just strapping on the jet and going. If someone doesn't realize that then they aren't very bright. However it isn't rock science.

Personally if I ever came over there I would want and need the experience you guys have to offer in training me, but then again I like keeping my ticket.

 

[CastofThousands]

Plus 3 to Japan, 1 to Korea, Vietnam, Australia, Thailand. 2 times to India... But what do I know, Im just an arrogant Jet God.

For all you knuckle heads at NJA who think you've got this international thing in the bag... go ask the guys who came over here first and see what they tell ya. Im flying with one now and I know what he'll tell you.

YGBSM - With the right company, training, standards, and crew environment, it's all pilot sh!t. It certainly requires additional training, but many have done it before you, and many will do it after you (speaking from experience). You'll get people's attention when you show up for duty in a NASA jumpsuit (one way of the other). Until then, it's still pants on one leg at a time.

Come on back down to earth before you poke someone's eye out. I'd rather hear what a true pilot has to say about the worlds BEvERages than, how great they are. I'll buy if you want waste the time. Real pilots do it all while getting intercepted and/or shot at - I'll be the first to say I'm not one of 'em. I'm just a guy who moves heavy equipment from one place to another for a pay check and loves play time.

Respectfully,

 

[niteflyr]

Where does the assumption we all crawled out of a Piper Navajo and into an Ultra at NJA come from? There is a huge spread of experience, yes even international, on the NJA side. Just because it wasn't in a gulfstream does not mean no one here has done it. Converting Meters and QFE? You have got to be kidding me, please hold my hand while I figure this out. Only version 4.2? Oh no, try it with version 0.0, or also called the original INS. Get over yourselves!

 

[imacdog]

Wow Wolf, my simple question invoked that type of response from you? Impressive that you were born into a Gulfstream. It's not like you came from the ranks of places like Midway and Comair, or is it? Certainly someone with that type of background is simply incapable of learning international flying, as you allude to.

 

[YankeeEcho]

Dues are 1.5% of gross wages. That with per diem differences between actual paid and IRS allowance will give you the 2% required for business deductions, so you won't really notice it.

Explain this? . . . . .

 

[CL60]

Training?

All due respect to the viewpoints here, I can understand Wolf's frustration. In the past, you had to have the international experience before getting the keys.

As for the training--it definitely doesn't cover what you learn from experience and its very distracting when flying with someone who obviously doesn't have it. Some don't mind instructing on the road but others will have higher expectations.

 

[imacdog]

No matter what their feelings, they will have to accept the idea that NJA pilots will be flying with them in the near future, and being professionals involves casting aside ego and learning to work together. I doubt this will be a problem as all the NJI pilots I have met on the road have been very nice. There are always exceptions though (on both sides).

 

[Semore Butts]

I think I can hang Wolf.

A year in Afghanistan (1 in Iraq before that) flying to every "Stan" you can think off.

I know what "real mountains", "weird" altimeter settings, and people very "strange" to me are about.

Did all our flight planning and DIP clearances by ourselves.

Oh yeah...In an Ultra.

I'm sure you are seeing that NJA pilots are capable of integrating into the Gulfstreams and learning the international ropes just like you did when you started there.

You won't be seeing me, I'll be happy in the Hawker fleet.

I have seen all of the foreign lands I care too.

We'll all get along just fine I'm sure.

Jeez! The sh!t we pick to argue about????

Take care, and I'm looking forward to you joining the "Team".

Yes Team. If you guys are as "sh!t hot" as I'm hearing you say, you will a welcome addition to our membership.

Don't read into my statements, I sincerely think you guys will be an asset to us all.

 

[soccer.1860]

In the Military Heavy world after 1500 hours total time you are worldwide qualified as a PIC. This include locals such as Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa, S.E. Asia, etc...

 

[Pervis]

Explain this? . . . . .

For business expenses to be deductible, they must be at least 2% of you adjusted gross income. Our domestic per diem is $40.80/day, and international is $60.00/day. Both are well under what uncle sam allows for daily per diem in most if not all locations. The per diem calculations net me at least $600/yr off my federal tax obligation. Not as much as dues, but those reduce my fed tax as well.

 

[G200_PILOT]

For all you knuckle heads at NJA who think you've got this international thing in the bag... go ask the guys who came over here first and see what they tell ya. Im flying with one now and I know what he'll tell you.

Go back and quote me where I said that I had it in the bag already. I'm looking forward to the opportunity to learn new things. If I came across like all I needed was a little bit of ground school, I apologize. I am well aware that doing it from the right seat a few times first is the only way to do it. My whole issue here is that some of you... you included after this comment Wolf, think that you're some kind of special gift. I can assure you that I can learn something new just as fast if not faster than you can. Oh... and so can't all of my other Union brothers and sisters at NJA!

 

[ozpilot]

So integration offers NJI pilots a seniority list based on date of hire and fences for pay,seat and aircraft.

They also obtain some nice extras per the hard fought NJA pilots contract such as hourly OT, extended days that are not impacted by sick days taken, after midnights, the option of an 18 day schedule for more pay etc etc. And of course they all come under the protection of the union.

I know this is going to come across as a flame, but I'll ask the question anyway.

What do the pilots of NJA get out of this deal? People tell me its about scope, but thats a week argument in my opinion. The operations of both company's are very different. It hard for me to believe that the 300 pilots of NJI could ever be a threat to the 3000 pilots of NJA.

During the long dark days leading up to the 2005 contract did the company use the NJI pilots to whipsaw the NJA pilots?. No.

If scope is the argument we should be more concerned about the pilots of EJM.

Flame away.

 

[gutshotdraw]

About $450,000 a year in NJASAP's bank account.

300 pilots X average salary $100,000 = $30,000,000

$30,000,000 X 1.5% dues (or agency fee)= $450,000

 

[NJAPLT]

So integration offers NJI pilots a seniority list based on date of hire and fences for pay,seat and aircraft.

I think overall the NJI pilots make out like bandits under the current LOA. They get union protection and all the benefits that go along with our contract, and they get to keep their better pay and g4 to g5 fence (for captains). The NJI FO's will probably get to hold a captain position sooner than they would if the programs were kept apart. (True, not in a G4, but a Citation V captain at NJA makes more pay than I guess they make as a FO right now on a G4 or G5.)

NJA pilots get Scope, and a few G4/G5 slots as the NJI pilots move to other planes or retire. We also get rid of the potential to whipsaw us in the future with NJI. A contract means nothing without scope, ask mesa-freedom, TSA/Go Jets, any major and their "express" carriers.

I understand the fear of change on both sides of NetJets, and the conjecture on what will happen with the integration. Lots of wounds still exists from the actions of both sides of the NetJets pilot group before the 2005 CBA, and won't be quickly forgotten by either party. I'm sure if I check I will find a percentage of NJA pilots who want DOH back dues paid by NJI pilots, or a stapled to the bottom seniority list, but that is not fair in my opinion. I also don't believe that the LOA G5 captain fence is fair.

The current LOA is what it is, no mater what any individual NJA or NJI pilot feels about it. If the company and the union both want to change the LOA they will make a new agreement, otherwise this will be the rules the integration occurs under.

 

[RTRHD]

Only version 4.2? Oh no, try it with version 0.0, or also called the original INS. Get over yourselves!

You know I did the INS only thing also and remember the VLF with 9 waypoints. It was almost easier back then. Now everybody has dozens of FMS departures,arrivals,transitions and approaches . Top it off with a EFB from hell language difficulties and weather. All I am trying to say here it's a PAIN IN THE BUTT.

 

[fischman]

You won't be seeing me, I'll be happy in the Hawker fleet.

All the cool kids are going to the XL/XLS.
Finchy and I are looking forward to flying with you. :beer:

 

[ozpilot]

About $450,000 a year in NJASAP's bank account.

300 pilots X average salary $100,000 = $30,000,000

$30,000,000 X 1.5% dues (or agency fee)= $450,000

I'm not sure how this benefits the NJA pilots. Yes the annual dues go up by 10% but so do the number of pilots. After integration NJI pilots will pay the same dues, and receive the same representation as the NJA pilots.

The mantra of SU, 1108 and now NJASAP has always been the pilots are the union. I fully understand the concerns of an NJI pilot regarding union representation but I ask you to look at how far the pilots of NJA have advanced with the current union. All those benefits will be inherited by the NJI pilots after integration.

Our union is like none other in the aviation industry. I'm proud of what we have achieved. I suspect the pilots of NJI are going to find their dues represent money well spent.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I'm not sure how this benefits the NJA pilots.

The Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules. I was merely stating a fact in answer to your question. And, by the way, it will be closer to $500,000.

 

[old*art]

I am with Semore ... it makes me tired just to look at a G. Ever see those folks who fall out of a V at TEB with eyes that look like the red routes on a mountain road map ? Eyes that feel like holes burned in a blanket sound familiar ? First time I ever saw a G I thought - you want to go international in THAT little thing ? And I also got the international flying out of my system a LONG time ago .. ever heard of Vadahti Iran ? Try finding that in the mountains at night without a GPS and taxiing with those old black smudge pots for taxiway lights. Or a real NDB approach into Rio or Addis with thunderstorms and the needles looking like vacuum windshield wipers. (Do you know the only thing worse than having one ADF ? Having two !!) And a restful night at the HOS in Recife - a dollar to anyone old enough to remember that! (Is that a REAL pig ? I wish that parrot would stop spitting seeds in my plate !) Where do I turn in my passport ? Ok that's my "mine is bigger than yours" story. But I worry more what future CEOs at NJ will do if the scope is not sewed up - not so much the present ones. Look at what Ron Allen was able to do to Delta.
As to the NJI pilots, I was as rabidly anti union as anyone before coming to NJ and saw nothing to change my mind until that incredible group of young folks took it over and finally got us away from Teamsters. I will have to admit I am going to miss the magazine. It was fun reading all the indictments in the court ordered list in the back of the magazine each month - and it made a good fire starter in the winter. As to what its like being in this union, as Delmar said "come on in boys, the water's fine !". Warts and all.

 

[Mountain Troll]

Well well well, we are all playing nice I see. Let us remember a few things.
1. The union negotiated the class 4 pay out and RTS will now have a group of less costly G drivers with over a half a million per year left in his pockets. Glad you guys got NJI, too bad you had to sell out so cheaply.
2. Although removed just recently, posting the NJI FOM on the NJASAP website to thumb your noses at management, classy. The morons who did that thought a lot about security and company procedures being in the open. Nice.
3. You can train any monkey to fly a Gulfstream. You can't train a monkey finesse, customer service, work ethics or to think in advance.
4. The 36 crossovers actually admit to the position at NJI being a little more difficult in operations, the G a more difficult aircraft to learn and fly well and generally a little more professionalism in the job. Their words, not mine.
5. How many NJI pilots used NJA as a backup when looking for a job? I"m guessing that there isn't as many NJA pilots who used NJI as their backup position.
6. Except for the current 36 crossovers or so, everyone else at NJI was INVITED to join. The union broke the door down and forced the rest (NJA) of you a way in.
7. Since NJI did have a little more palatable working environment, why aren't you concentrating union efforts on how to retain the good differences instead of pissing a good thing away and pounding on your collective chests. NJI is about 10% of the NJA ranks, so tearing the place up and making it NJA south still isn't going to have any effect on 90% of your membership.
8. You can't learn international procedures out of a book and directly apply them. It takes time,experience and anybody can apply themselves and learn it. But, what they don't talk about openly is the backside of clock ops, waking up at 2am when the alarm is set for 8am because the circadian rythm is elsewhere. Different food sources, squirts for a week. Being hated by most of the world outside the US border. OH yeah, international flying is just a gas gas gas.
9. You union members have a unique opportunity, is it really productive to banter about he said she said? There are good pilots on both sides. There are experienced pilots on both sides. It is kind of funny how the union forgets that the number one job is to take care of the owners. Why havn't the owners or their level of quality service been mentioned once? Without the owners, your union will do nicely on providing guidance of how to file for unemployment benefits at the state office. This union will never have the leverage that an airline or construction company has because NJA/I doesn't own the aircraft. Someone else does, and they can take their aircraft elsewhere. NJA/I only has some real estate leases, office equipment/software and a group of people working there. Think about it.

 

[old*art]

I will give you the customer service point, and training is trying to address it. But for the people who know what NJI REALLY does, I doubt there is as much "G envy" over here as you folks like to think there is. It is more about structure, the future, and holding a certain gentleman who likes to make promises to his word. I think you folks are beginning to find out about that last point.

 

[ozpilot]

Well well well, we are all playing nice I see. Let us remember a few things.
1. The union negotiated the class 4 pay out and RTS will now have a group of less costly G drivers with over a half a million per year left in his pockets. Glad you guys got NJI, too bad you had to sell out so cheaply.

Not so. According to the LOA attached to the IBB agreement NJI pilots will be pay protected. (LOA 01-013 B.4.C) So if you earn more than union rates you will continue to do so until you bid out of any FA equipped Gulfstream aircraft.

Unfortunately the LOA does not address the NJA FO who ends up senior to an NJI Captain as a result of the VSI. No bypass pay for him.

Neither does it address the 14+ year NJA Captain who will see his yearly pay increases limited to 4% since he will be unable to bid into an aircraft greater than 40,000lbs. In the meantime an NJI Captain junior to him will continue on the >40,000lb pay scale.

The NJI pilots will be pay, seat and aircraft protected. I see this as a good deal for the NJI pilots and I don't begrudge them that. I'm just not convinced it is for the NJA pilots.

 

[niteflyr]

I didn't mention in my previous post but I too got all that Int'l out of my system. You won't see me envying any of the "G slots" from the NJA side.

 

[NJAPLT]

The NJI pilots will be pay, seat and aircraft protected. I see this as a good deal for the NJI pilots and I don't begrudge them that. I'm just not convinced it is for the NJA pilots.

Yeah, I agree totally. Great for NJI pilots, much less for NJA pilots. But, as I've said before, it is what it is, warts and all.

If I were at NJI, I would hope that the company doesn't want to reopen the integration LOA, I doubt that their side of the deal would get better than the current LOA.

I look forward to a time when the integration is complete and we have recovered from the mistakes the IBT made allowing the pilot group to be split at Netjets.

 

[transpac]

This is too funny! Kind of reminds me of the day I listened in while a C-150 solo student explained to a Cherokee pre-solo student why a high wing airplane would eat his lunch if he was ever brave enough to try flying one.

For the record, modern international flying is pretty simple with Jeppeson services, GPS navigation, and on site handlers. In the old days it could get pretty hairy navigating with Loran A and a sextant and doing one's own country clearances. Nowadays, I'd rather fly in China as in Mexico.

 

[ozpilot]

7. Since NJI did have a little more palatable working environment, why aren't you concentrating union efforts on how to retain the good differences instead of pissing a good thing away and pounding on your collective chests.

No argument there. Ask any NJA pilot what his #1 beef with the operation is and they'll likely tell you scheduling. And yet when I talk to NJI pilots its not so much of an issue.

Why? I believe a big part is because of misunderstandings that arise between the NJA pilots and their schedulers due to the fact that we have to relay questions/requests between the two via a third party, namely the flight managers in Columbus.

NJA Pilots - there are no flight managers at NJI; NJI pilots talk directly to the schedulers.

NJI Pilots - NJA Pilots, except for a select few, never talk to a scheduler.

As a result there is a lot of mistrust between the NJA pilots and scheduling due to the fact that we never actually talk to each other!

I've never figured this out. When I have a maintenance issue I call maintenance. When I have an owner services issue I call owner services. When I have a dispatch issue I call - you guessed it - dispatch.

And yet when I have a scheduling issue, I'm required to call a flight manager. ?!

Thats one aspect of NJI I would love to see adopted at NJA.

 

[G200_PILOT]

No argument there. Ask any NJA pilot what his #1 beef with the operation is and they'll likely tell you scheduling. And yet when I talk to NJI pilots its not so much of an issue.

Why? I believe its because of the misunderstandings that arise between the NJA pilots and their schedulers due to the fact that we have to relay questions/requests between the two via a third party, namely the flight managers in Columbus.

NJA Pilots - there are no flight managers at NJI; NJI pilots talk directly to the schedulers.

NJI Pilots - NJA Pilots, except for a select few, never talk to a scheduler.

As a result there is a lot of mistrust between the NJA pilots and scheduling due to the fact that we never actually talk to each other!

I've never figured this out. When I have a maintenance issue I call maintenance. When I have an owner services issue I call owner services. When I have a dispatch issue I call - you guessed it - dispatch.

And yet when I have a scheduling issue, I'm required to call a flight manager. ?!

Thats one aspect of NJI I would love to see adopted at NJA.

You don't think it has anything to do with the fact that the NJA schedulers have to schedule almost 3000 pilots verses the hand-full of pilots that the NJI schedulers have to deal with? How many airplanes do we have and how many airplanes do they have? Numbers have to mean something.

 

[fischman]

It is kind of funny how the union forgets that the number one job is to take care of the owners. Why haven't the owners or their level of quality service been mentioned once? Without the owners, your union will do nicely on providing guidance of how to file for unemployment benefits at the state office.

When you join NJASAP and get access to the message boards, you will learn that there are several threads that go on for several pages of pilots giving pointers to improve the NJA experience for our owners. I think you will be impressed with the level of professionalism you will see.

 

[fischman]

This union will never have the leverage that an airline or construction company has because NJA/I doesn't own the aircraft. Someone else does, and they can take their aircraft elsewhere.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Would you explain it please?