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Integration Day

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Well well well, we are all playing nice I see. Let us remember a few things.
1. The union negotiated the class 4 pay out and RTS will now have a group of less costly G drivers with over a half a million per year left in his pockets. Glad you guys got NJI, too bad you had to sell out so cheaply.
2. Although removed just recently, posting the NJI FOM on the NJASAP website to thumb your noses at management, classy. The morons who did that thought a lot about security and company procedures being in the open. Nice.
3. You can train any monkey to fly a Gulfstream. You can't train a monkey finesse, customer service, work ethics or to think in advance.
4. The 36 crossovers actually admit to the position at NJI being a little more difficult in operations, the G a more difficult aircraft to learn and fly well and generally a little more professionalism in the job. Their words, not mine.
5. How many NJI pilots used NJA as a backup when looking for a job? I"m guessing that there isn't as many NJA pilots who used NJI as their backup position.
6. Except for the current 36 crossovers or so, everyone else at NJI was INVITED to join. The union broke the door down and forced the rest (NJA) of you a way in.
7. Since NJI did have a little more palatable working environment, why aren't you concentrating union efforts on how to retain the good differences instead of pissing a good thing away and pounding on your collective chests. NJI is about 10% of the NJA ranks, so tearing the place up and making it NJA south still isn't going to have any effect on 90% of your membership.
8. You can't learn international procedures out of a book and directly apply them. It takes time,experience and anybody can apply themselves and learn it. But, what they don't talk about openly is the backside of clock ops, waking up at 2am when the alarm is set for 8am because the circadian rythm is elsewhere. Different food sources, squirts for a week. Being hated by most of the world outside the US border. OH yeah, international flying is just a gas gas gas.
9. You union members have a unique opportunity, is it really productive to banter about he said she said? There are good pilots on both sides. There are experienced pilots on both sides. It is kind of funny how the union forgets that the number one job is to take care of the owners. Why havn't the owners or their level of quality service been mentioned once? Without the owners, your union will do nicely on providing guidance of how to file for unemployment benefits at the state office. This union will never have the leverage that an airline or construction company has because NJA/I doesn't own the aircraft. Someone else does, and they can take their aircraft elsewhere. NJA/I only has some real estate leases, office equipment/software and a group of people working there. Think about it.
 
I will give you the customer service point, and training is trying to address it. But for the people who know what NJI REALLY does, I doubt there is as much "G envy" over here as you folks like to think there is. It is more about structure, the future, and holding a certain gentleman who likes to make promises to his word. I think you folks are beginning to find out about that last point.
 
Well well well, we are all playing nice I see. Let us remember a few things.
1. The union negotiated the class 4 pay out and RTS will now have a group of less costly G drivers with over a half a million per year left in his pockets. Glad you guys got NJI, too bad you had to sell out so cheaply.

Not so. According to the LOA attached to the IBB agreement NJI pilots will be pay protected. (LOA 01-013 B.4.C) So if you earn more than union rates you will continue to do so until you bid out of any FA equipped Gulfstream aircraft.

Unfortunately the LOA does not address the NJA FO who ends up senior to an NJI Captain as a result of the VSI. No bypass pay for him.

Neither does it address the 14+ year NJA Captain who will see his yearly pay increases limited to 4% since he will be unable to bid into an aircraft greater than 40,000lbs. In the meantime an NJI Captain junior to him will continue on the >40,000lb pay scale.

The NJI pilots will be pay, seat and aircraft protected. I see this as a good deal for the NJI pilots and I don't begrudge them that. I'm just not convinced it is for the NJA pilots.
 
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I didn't mention in my previous post but I too got all that Int'l out of my system. You won't see me envying any of the "G slots" from the NJA side.
 
The NJI pilots will be pay, seat and aircraft protected. I see this as a good deal for the NJI pilots and I don't begrudge them that. I'm just not convinced it is for the NJA pilots.

Yeah, I agree totally. Great for NJI pilots, much less for NJA pilots. But, as I've said before, it is what it is, warts and all.

If I were at NJI, I would hope that the company doesn't want to reopen the integration LOA, I doubt that their side of the deal would get better than the current LOA.

I look forward to a time when the integration is complete and we have recovered from the mistakes the IBT made allowing the pilot group to be split at Netjets.
 
This is too funny! Kind of reminds me of the day I listened in while a C-150 solo student explained to a Cherokee pre-solo student why a high wing airplane would eat his lunch if he was ever brave enough to try flying one.

For the record, modern international flying is pretty simple with Jeppeson services, GPS navigation, and on site handlers. In the old days it could get pretty hairy navigating with Loran A and a sextant and doing one's own country clearances. Nowadays, I'd rather fly in China as in Mexico.
 
7. Since NJI did have a little more palatable working environment, why aren't you concentrating union efforts on how to retain the good differences instead of pissing a good thing away and pounding on your collective chests.

No argument there. Ask any NJA pilot what his #1 beef with the operation is and they'll likely tell you scheduling. And yet when I talk to NJI pilots its not so much of an issue.

Why? I believe a big part is because of misunderstandings that arise between the NJA pilots and their schedulers due to the fact that we have to relay questions/requests between the two via a third party, namely the flight managers in Columbus.

NJA Pilots - there are no flight managers at NJI; NJI pilots talk directly to the schedulers.

NJI Pilots - NJA Pilots, except for a select few, never talk to a scheduler.

As a result there is a lot of mistrust between the NJA pilots and scheduling due to the fact that we never actually talk to each other!

I've never figured this out. When I have a maintenance issue I call maintenance. When I have an owner services issue I call owner services. When I have a dispatch issue I call - you guessed it - dispatch.

And yet when I have a scheduling issue, I'm required to call a flight manager. ?!

Thats one aspect of NJI I would love to see adopted at NJA.
 
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No argument there. Ask any NJA pilot what his #1 beef with the operation is and they'll likely tell you scheduling. And yet when I talk to NJI pilots its not so much of an issue.

Why? I believe its because of the misunderstandings that arise between the NJA pilots and their schedulers due to the fact that we have to relay questions/requests between the two via a third party, namely the flight managers in Columbus.

NJA Pilots - there are no flight managers at NJI; NJI pilots talk directly to the schedulers.

NJI Pilots - NJA Pilots, except for a select few, never talk to a scheduler.

As a result there is a lot of mistrust between the NJA pilots and scheduling due to the fact that we never actually talk to each other!

I've never figured this out. When I have a maintenance issue I call maintenance. When I have an owner services issue I call owner services. When I have a dispatch issue I call - you guessed it - dispatch.

And yet when I have a scheduling issue, I'm required to call a flight manager. ?!

Thats one aspect of NJI I would love to see adopted at NJA.


You don't think it has anything to do with the fact that the NJA schedulers have to schedule almost 3000 pilots verses the hand-full of pilots that the NJI schedulers have to deal with? How many airplanes do we have and how many airplanes do they have? Numbers have to mean something.
 
It is kind of funny how the union forgets that the number one job is to take care of the owners. Why haven't the owners or their level of quality service been mentioned once? Without the owners, your union will do nicely on providing guidance of how to file for unemployment benefits at the state office.


When you join NJASAP and get access to the message boards, you will learn that there are several threads that go on for several pages of pilots giving pointers to improve the NJA experience for our owners. I think you will be impressed with the level of professionalism you will see.
 
This union will never have the leverage that an airline or construction company has because NJA/I doesn't own the aircraft. Someone else does, and they can take their aircraft elsewhere.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Would you explain it please?
 
You don't think it has anything to do with the fact that the NJA schedulers have to schedule almost 3000 pilots verses the hand-full of pilots that the NJI schedulers have to deal with? How many airplanes do we have and how many airplanes do they have? Numbers have to mean something.

I've heard that argument and I don't buy it. While I don't know the exact number I would wonder if the ratio of schedulers to pilots is that much different between NJI and NJA.

I'm in the X (one of the bigger fleets). We have 391 pilots. We have our own fleet specific schedulers. How is that so different from NJI?

I've also heard the argument that scheduling would be flooded with calls. ?! Guess what? Every time I call a flight manager with a scheduling question they then call the scheduler. How does that help?

With no disrespect to the flight managers intended, it reminds me of trying to communicate with your wife by relaying everything through your mother-in-law.
 
This doesn't make any sense to me. Would you explain it please?

Any company that is heavy with equipment such as construction equipment, trucking companies and airlines has a debt service to pay monthly for the cost of owning or leasing equipment. The fractional model is different. There are no payments on capital equipment. The owners or customers pay for the metal that is flown. They also pay CMH or whomever a management fee and operational hourly fee. Labor can leverage any company that has a huge debt service more easily than a "services only company".
Does that make sense? Contact by pm if not.
 
That makes sense, but under the current relations between NetJets (NJA/NJI) and labor I'm not sure why it is necessary?

In 2005 NetJets learned the value of happy employees.
 
Wow I've been gone a long time. Last time I was here there were guys screaming that if NJI became part of a Union they would be quitting. Has that happened yet? Doubtful...;)


But I digress. I see "everyone" a little worried about this integration. But I don't understand the fear factor at all.

NJI Capts are really worried about what? I see nothing but an upside for them....

1) overtime.
2) Undertime
3) Holiday pay
4) extended days pay as worked not per qtr

These two items alone will more than make up for any dues paid.

NJI FOs: They are worried they wont upgrade in the G. Maybe they wont. But based on the VSL I've seen those upgrades weren't coming that fast. On the upside here is what I see for them.

1) Overtime
2) Undertime
3) Holiday pay
4)extended day pay as worked
5) Upgrades in many cases sooner but to smaller planes with pay over $100k as Capts, Maybe not a G but hell it may turn out you enjoy running around in the States for a $100K plus

Also "everyone" gets a clear picture of the future. Now some at NJI can say they didn't see this coming but this issue has been around for at least 9 years now. Now the water will be running completely clear for us all. One big family as it really should be. Aren't we all growing tired of the us and them game?

I just want to say welcome to us all. I offer one suggestion, keep it friendly for if you don't the only person that loses is yourself......
 
Well said! A positive attitude by all will make for a smooth transition and a fun family reunion...:)
 
Flying a Gulfstream is no different than flying any other jet. Where we fly them is the point here.

It took TWO of us to make that a safe night of flying, and I was totally exhausted.The point here is...
  • Yes, you too can learn how to fly a Gulfstream all over the world (patience young Jedi).
  • No, NJI pilots are not Gods of the sky.The last thing we need is a GIV/Hawker/Ultra plane on CNN news with a helicopter hovering over the crash sight.
Thats my .02 cents on the flying differences between NJA/I.


Apparently some of you decided to skim over this part of my posting.... I never said I or any other NJI pilot was better than anyone else. And no, I wasnt born in a Gulfstream... (although my 1st ride I can remember was in a G-I with my father) and yes I have openly stated on these boards my background was flying freight and then working for ACA...Midway... Comair.

So stick that in your hat and smoke it! You may now resume your crying.
 
We aren't going to start that crap again are we? The union involvement with hiring has been discussed ad nauseum on the union message boards.
 
We aren't going to start that crap again are we? The union involvement with hiring has been discussed ad nauseum on the union message boards.

The question about scabs has never been discussed or justified on the union web site. We are not unique though. Other carriers have had that issue as well. I'll bet any union would prefer to have more input into hiring.
 

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