Integration Day

[gutshotdraw]

I understand where you're coming from but you have to accept the fact that RTS isn't your best friend and he HAS indeed lied to all of you on several occasions. The fact that someone took the job under certain pretenses means nothing to me. You yourself said that things change. I can sympathize with you that it's not right to be misled, but remember that it wasn't us (NJA pilots) that misled you. We've been talking about single carrier and how it's eventually going to happen for years. This didn't just start a few years ago.

No matter what RTS promised you guys, the letter of the law states how things are going to be. It's very cut and dry. If RTS wants to upgrade all of the FOs to PIC, that's great. To me, it only means that several NJA pilots are going to get to upgrade/ transition over to the G-IV as well. Is it a one out of three for PIC upgrades or is it a one for one? Too lazy to look it up right now. Nevertheless, it benefits NJA pilots just as much as it benefits the NJI guys.

Keep in mind that this "drop dead" date you keep talking about is only about 2 months away so if RTS is going to pull a stunt like this, he better start doing it soon. I hope he has sim slots reserved for all this BS...

It is anything but "cut and dried." That's why it is called a negotiation. There hasn't been a court order so there is no "letter of the law." The terms of the integration will be finalized over the next couple of months, then it will be announced, and there will be a phase-in period. The agreement will specify when future positions will be filled according to company-wide bid. It will be either a calendar date or after a specific class has upgraded. Until then, status quo.

As for RTS misleading me, the only time he ever did that was when he showed up 1:15 early for a flight to Belmar :0 Regardless, the integration won't affect me in the slightest except to see the paycheck go up in one column (overtime) and go down in another (dues). I'm fortunate enough to be senior to about 84% of the combined list so that won't be an issue personally. Nevertheless, I am paying close attention to the process because of the many friends on both sides of the company and how it might affect them.

 

[G200_PILOT]

It is anything but "cut and dried." That's why it is called a negotiation. There hasn't been a court order so there is no "letter of the law." The terms of the integration will be finalized over the next couple of months, then it will be announced, and there will be a phase-in period. The agreement will specify when future positions will be filled according to company-wide bid. It will be either a calendar date or after a specific class has upgraded. Until then, status quo.

.

This tells me that you have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about. There are LOAs in place that make this VERY cut and dry when it comes to current upgrades. I suggest you do a little bit of research and read them fully, about three or four times. The option for RTS to say "OK, all you FOs are upgrading tomorrow" is there, however, he'll also have to spend the extra cash to upgrade/transition the NJA guys. Go read it and then come back and tell me that it's not cut and dry.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I've tried to be civil. I've tried to answer questions that were asked. And yes, I know more about this little corporate disaster than you do. In a couple of months, we'll find out who was right and who wasn't.

In the meantime, do us all a favor and bid the Falcon or something else besides the G. 326 people will thank you for it.

And by the way, the phrase is CUT AND DRIED. Not DRY, it's DRIED.

 

[Pervis]

Gutshot, we will all have to deal with those on both sides unable or unwilling to get along or accept everything that will come down. It is like that now in each of our own world. I'm sure you folks have some real tooells too.

One thing you do need to consider, which you probably do. Nothing you people have been told is in writing, so I would not hold my breath. We have all kinds of "interpretation" issues with a written contract, so anything told or promised means nothing without some kind of written agreement. And even then there are all kinds of questions.

As far as some FO's upgrading before the most junior PIC on this side-who cares? There will always be a very small group who benefits greatly and the same for those that appear to get the shaft. Bottom line is the long tem. We will all benefit from one familiy with one goal-profit-through being the industry leader. We all win. Even our competitors, as the standard for wages and work rules come from the leaders.

 

[RTRHD]

Oh Nevermind

 

[gutshotdraw]

Pervis, you are absolutely correct. The only thing in writing so far is the LOA from the IBB contract that provides a FRAMEWORK for the integration. The entire point (which has clearly been missed by some), is that there will be a document spelling out the details and the timeline of the integration. Until then, it is all so much BLATHER.

 

[172driver]

Because

1. We haven't integrated yet and the VSL is not yet binding in any way.
2. When pilots were hired prior to the contract in November 2005, they were told there was zero prospect of a union on the property and they would upgrade based on aircraft deliveries at NJI and they made their decision to accept the position based on that information.
3. They have been repeatedly told ever since that they would upgrade "unencumbered" by NJA pilots joining the NJI operation.

What you were told means absolutely nothing. That's one of the major reasons to be in a union -- you can take all that stuff you're being told and put it in a legally binding contract.

1. Not yet, but soon.
2. That obviously didn't happen.
3. If number 2 didn't happen, why would you believe number 3?

 

[CastofThousands]

LOA 01-013 B

One pilot group, one seniority list, one collective bargaining agreement. The seniority list has already been agreed to aka the "Virtual Seniority List" to be know as the "NetJets Aviation Pilots Seniority List." In addition, the 2007 collective bargaining agreement (Basic Agreement) will remain in effect, as written, for all pilots on the "NetJets Aviation Pilots Seniority List" as defined in Section 1 of the Basic Agreement. LOA 01-013 is part of the Basic Agreement, among other LOA's.

There will be no additional agreements. IF the Company self recognizes the Basic Agreement will be effective no later than November 21, 2010. NJI pilot union membership/dues won't be required until the Basic Agreement goes into effect at NJI; the scope, wages, benefits, and work rules of the Basic Agreement will go into effect at the common carrier (NJI/NJA/NJLA) no later than November 21, 2010.

IF the Company self recognizes, for the period between the recognition notice and the effective date of the Basic Agreement at NJI, the amalgamation of scope, wages, benefits, and work rules will be implemented at NJI (like NJA/NJLA).

Ideally, to the extent possible, the best of all worlds (NJI/NJA/NJLA) will be the result; which means NJI will need to conform to the Basic Agreement and NJA will need to begin treating the NJA pilot force more professionally.

NJI, NJA, and NJLA will remain individual Operating Certificates - while common [best] practices, [professional] policies, and [operational] methods prevail.

NJI/NJA/NJLA will maintain their current operations centers.

Good luck to all,

 

[Ultra Grump]

And there ya have it.

 

[RTRHD]

Will someone answer how much are dues.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Are you guys saying that NJA guys are incapable of going through the training you have gone through to perform this flying?

Cheers from New Castle, England... First let me say that all you blabber heads sound like a bunch of RJDC/DEL MEC cry babies!

As I (a 40 yr old/3.5 year NJI G-IV Captain) was having breakfast this morning with my FO (a 61 yr old/5year NJA/I G-IV FO) we discussed this issue in depth.... civil style no less. Both of us prior military, prior Part 121, prior furlough, etc. etc.

Flying a Gulfstream is no different than flying any other jet. Where we fly them is the point here. Im sorry if I hurt your feelings Mr. Ultra Pilot, but Yang Tei China isnt Jacksonville, FL. If you think you can just show up, get through class, read a little handout and blast off for Asia with your Doc Martins on.... WRONGO!

My last tour I took a GIV to China with another cross over FO. We did some serious hard core flying. Mountainous terrain, night IMC with low ceilings, QFE conversions because we landed at a MIG fighter base airport, etc. etc. It took TWO of us to make that a safe night of flying, and I was totally exhausted. And this was my 7th trip to China.

The point here is...

• Yes, you too can learn how to fly a Gulfstream all over the world (patience young Jedi).
• No, NJI pilots are not Gods of the sky.
• Its takes $50,000 and 8 months to become a pilot... It takes time and experience to become a SAFE pilot.
• NJI pilots need to accept reality.. its gonna happen, we getting merged.
• NJA pilots need to accept that 300 Gulfstream pilots (some with big egos) with major experience are joining their ranks and there will be seat and upgrade protections for these pilots. (I for one will upgrade to a GV long before most 10 year NJA guys ever see a G4).
• NJI pilots will need to abide and function under a new set of rules. (Its Mary Q's dream come true)
• NJA pilots will need to accept the fact that several of us have serious experience in unions and will most likely take over the whole joint in less than 5 years anyway.

But seriously, enough with d*ck wagging. We could all be flying rubber dog sh*t out of Hong Kong Mavrick!

The last thing we need is a GIV/Hawker/Ultra plane on CNN news with a helicopter hovering over the crash sight.

Thats my .02 cents on the flying differences between NJA/I.

 

[Pervis]

Will someone answer how much are dues.

Dues are 1.5% of gross wages. That with per diem differences between actual paid and IRS allowance will give you the 2% required for business deductions, so you won't really notice it.

 

[RTRHD]

Dues are 1.5% of gross wages. That with per diem differences between actual paid and IRS allowance will give you the 2% required for business deductions, so you won't really notice it.

Thanks Pervis
So you get a 1099 for per diem and you need to keep track of where you been for the IRS?

 

[fischman]

My last tour I took a GIV to China with another cross over FO. We did some serious hard core flying. Mountainous terrain, night IMC with low ceilings, QFE conversions because we landed at a MIG fighter base airport, etc. etc. It took TWO of us to make that a safe night of flying, and I was totally exhausted. And this was my 7th trip to China.

You are aware the Ultra goes to ASE right? This argument that flying to China, or any other international destination, and therefore requires a more experienced pilot, is laughable. It makes you look arrogant and condescending.

We are all going to be brothers soon. No more us/them stuff. We can do your job just as well as you can do ours. (They are the same job).

 

[Pervis]

Thanks Pervis
So you get a 1099 for per diem and you need to keep track of where you been for the IRS?

Unfortunately we get nothing from company, so you have to add up per diem. Doesn't take long though.

As far as overnights, I use pilottax.com. They provide a blank form where you supply overnight locations and when you leave and return to your base-am/pm only. Again, it doesn't take long for the entire year.

Would be nice if this wonderful concur system provided it, which it should be able to, but that's a T&E issue. As it is, we do more and more of their leg work each year.

 

[Pervis]

Fischman, I don't hink that's his intenet. Overseas flying is a lot different than the lower 48, Canada, Mexico and the islands. He's not implying it takes anyone special, but experience. The only way to get that is to fly with someone who's done that. Not many on the A side has donethat lately. Even the retired legacy guys never flew into a Mig base.

When I was in USAFE, European flying was a big challenge at first, but was still super easy compared to places like Turkey. Poor communications ability, terrible language issues and far more strict airspace rules take their toll. China is no different, and I'll bet that's what he's refering to.

 

[RTRHD]

Thanks Pevis, looks like more and more work. And yes Fisch Aspen is just like China. OK we are all brothers now so lets all play nice. Or I should say Aspen and China same,same.

 

[RNObased]

Thanks Pervis
So you get a 1099 for per diem and you need to keep track of where you been for the IRS?

No, you don't get 1099 for per diem. You can keep track of where you have been for more per diem deductions, I don't. If you have a good avaition CPA that does your taxes I would talk it over with him. If you don't I will give you the number of mine, but he is a west coast guy.

Also dues aren't that big of a deal, I have made 4 times my dues this year in OT. I will take that kind of return on my money any day.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Sigh.......

I'll be back here the first week of November and we'll compare notes.


Side note to Pack: Seven times to China bro? Nine years and the closest I have been is Hong Kong. Once. And guess what, I don't need to go so you just keep on doing those trips for me and I'll keep on hiding the passport from G-3.

 

[TristarsForever]

"Flying a Gulfstream is no different than flying any other jet. Where we fly them is the point here. Im sorry if I hurt your feelings Mr. Ultra Pilot, but Yang Tei China isnt Jacksonville, FL. If you think you can just show up, get through class, read a little handout and blast off for Asia with your Doc Martins on.... WRONGO!"

Permit me to cease averting my eyes and squint before your SkyGod brilliance for a brief moment, and humbly suggest that not all of us at NJA went from our $25 intro flight to the Ultra. Could it be that some of us may have used our passports in the course of aviating before it was required for the Bahamas and Mexico? Certainly not, for then, why would there be an NJI at all? Teach, that we may learn, O Filler Out of the Crew Dec