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In house negotiating committee at Colgan

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It seems to me that the big unknown is the common denominator here. Fear is conquered by facts....
It seems to me IMHO that there are 2 scenarious that both lead to a union organization.......without a committee

You Cannot even approach the topic of Committe negiotation until you realize who you will be negiotating with!!!

Lets start here with the Senators voting record... http://votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=BS023147&type=category&category=Labor

Scenario 1
After review you will see that the Senator voted his party lines consistant with the views on LABOR in the DEMS eyes. What is the AFLCIO.... a LABOR UNION!!
Its clear that over the years little has been accomplished with negiotiating with anyone in HEF. A "committe" would be a spineless entity that the company can ignore with NO recourse by the employee group. So here we sit after all these years and expect to bargain in good faith with a Committee, after all the BS that we endured, Jr manning, outstation basing, no per deim, antagonism from scheduling, threats....the list goes on and on and on. And the Senator votes to endorse a lobbyist group labor union the "AFLCIO" and their agenda. Vote one way when it costs you nothing....and fight another fight when it does cost you something?!?!?!? While his votes in the senate are going in one direction...we get the other direction at a company he owns!

Heres the catch.... the family did sell... we aren't dealing with them so much....they are merrily interim figure heads that report to the stock holders on wall street and the PCL managment that will ultimatly replace them....look at nearly every buyout in corp America, So FOLLOW the MONEY....vote one way...then bend over your own employee group..... Sure....a committee will work here....nope... We're back to ALPA talks again.

Scenario 2

PCL pilots have ALPA...they seemed to feel the need to have it there as well. Once the famialar faces are all done in HEF...you'll be dealing with the same Managment group at PCL that gave reason for the pilot group to organize there as well.....So now we talk ALPA here too......

Bottom line.....you CAN NOT negiotiate in good faith with someone that REPRESENTS a DIFFERENT interest when your interest is a barrier to the other's agenda, whether it is a PCL stock holder, PCL managment or ??????

A voting record that says one thing.....an employee group thats treated the other way.....you can't have two different opinons on a single issue!

And now you know

V1
 
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those of you who think some in house committee will accomplish anything are so deluded, why are you all so scared of the " U " word? A union won't end the company or make things any worse.. for sure, and major monetary gains may not be seen for quite a while, however what we do get is a real voice and some power when it comes time to bargain in good faith over all the issues that concern us. Even if you are leaving soon , you need to vote for the person that doesn't even work here yet.
 
PCL_128 said:
Take a look at Skywest's SAPA or JetBlue's Pilot Compensation Committee (I think that's what they call it). These two groups have absolutely no power, zero leverage, and therefore produce no results. Management still gives you whatever they want, because the independent "negotiating committee" has no real backing. The Skywest pilots ended up with a 1.5% raise for jet pilots, no raise at all for Brasilia pilots, and a very meager override on block-time for the 70- & 90-seaters. The JetBlue pilots were so upset at the raises that came for the EMB-190 and the complete lack of raises for the Airbus pilots that they now have a group of pilots meeting with ALPA to get an organizing drive started.

If you want any control over your career at all, you need a union. I hope you choose ALPA, but any union is better than none at all.
Click to expand...








Please don't give our management credit for being so generous...Sadly, 1.5% is 50% more than they were able to afford to "give" us at this extremely profitable airline(we were allowed 1% to cover COLA over the last 61/2 and next 4 years)!
 
Dr King said:
I think your wrong, I Rock was dead on. A union is a great thing for large companies where you want to be forever, but when you want to get in and get out it will only hinder us. Almost all the people i talked to who want a union are all the people that dont want to work.
Click to expand...

What if you like Colgan and want to stay. I know this seems like a joke, but some people like it here and just want to make it better. Please don't use the get in and get out argument. Just go ahead and get out then. Those of us that are staying for a while will do what we think is best to make it better.
 
I don't understand how an in house committee can accomploish anything. They have absolutely no bite.
 
Mr Wu said:
With the addition of the Q400, Colgan is no longer a "Get in, get your time, get out" airline. Dr. King, when was the last time, if ever, you got draft pay for an added leg? I just got done with an 8 day, yes 8, and can't get draft pay for the 7th day.
Click to expand...


Right on Mr Wu, the good ole days are over and it is time for the pilot group adjust and change with the times. Basic rule of business he who doesn't adjust to change with change is going to lose. Some support union, some support in house options, but something that we can all agree on is a need for change. We all need to educate ourselves with all options and make the best decision for ourselves. Personally, if we are going to go make change I say go all out and get the change that can actually offer each one of us protection and bargaining power.
 
Mr Wu said:
With the addition of the Q400, Colgan is no longer a "Get in, get your time, get out" airline. Dr. King, when was the last time, if ever, you got draft pay for an added leg? I just got done with an 8 day, yes 8, and can't get draft pay for the 7th day.
Click to expand...

Once already this week. All you have to do is call Mickey or dot and if they feel you went out of your way for them they will give it to you
 
Everyone is right that we need change, so istead of paying a union to get us nowhere over the next three years we should give the committee a chance. If it doesnt work then we only wasted a couple of months and then we can bring the union in.
 
Dr King said:
Everyone is right that we need change, so istead of paying a union to get us nowhere over the next three years we should give the committee a chance. If it doesnt work then we only wasted a couple of months and then we can bring the union in.
Click to expand...

I have seen nothing official about a "committee". What's up with this?
 
Mr Wu said:
With the addition of the Q400, Colgan is no longer a "Get in, get your time, get out" airline. Dr. King, when was the last time, if ever, you got draft pay for an added leg? I just got done with an 8 day, yes 8, and can't get draft pay for the 7th day.
Click to expand...

Funny, I'm sitting in HEF right now thinking the same thing...and check the time of this post. Saab MAY be ready in about 1/2 an hour...ha ha.

Draft pay for this added trouble? Right.

Oh, by the way, the computer here has not updated for daylight time, it's an hour later than it shows.
 
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Summary of discussions with management by committee......


C: "We want to discuss pay"
M: "Sorry, that's illegal under the Railway Labor Act."

C: "We want to discuss why Pinnacle's health care is better and cheaper than ours when we now work for the same company."
M: "Sorry, that's illegal under the Railway Labor Act."

C: "We want to discuss retirement and 401K"
M: "Sorry, that's illegal under the Railway Labor Act."

C: "We want to discuss a commuter clause."
M: "Get back to work."

C: "You better discuss something with us!"
M: "Or what?"
 
Dr King said:
Once already this week. All you have to do is call Mickey or dot and if they feel you went out of your way for them they will give it to you
Click to expand...


I'm calling BS on you. But just in the off chance that you did get it, it reinforces the case for an organized group that's recognized by the NMB. Everybody that flew in the Northeast last weekend went above and beyond. Shouldn't every one of them get that draft pay? A standard, enforcable set of work and compensation rules will finally do away with the "Naughty or Nice" list in Manassas.
 
"Pinnacle pilots wanting to fly the Q400 and have it written into their new contract."

IS this true? If so then you PNC guys are a bunch of As Holes. I would love to take your flying now.

Ok, if it is not then disregard the above line and lets go get a beer!

he he he

P2J
 
Mr Wu said:
I'm calling BS on you. But just in the off chance that you did get it, it reinforces the case for an organized group that's recognized by the NMB. Everybody that flew in the Northeast last weekend went above and beyond. Shouldn't every one of them get that draft pay? A standard, enforcable set of work and compensation rules will finally do away with the "Naughty or Nice" list in Manassas.
Click to expand...


As I said in my post....how can a committee expect to get anywhere with anyone in MGT when the Senator is a voice for a Labor Union Lobby (the AFL-CIO) and at the same time has these offensive tactics going on in HIS own shop....


ALPA is the only answer....it levels the playing field.

V1
 
Ok guys like I said. You guys are Mesaba's Big Sky, But PNC is doing it you I hope you already have pilot pay rates for the Q400's in your contracts. If you dont your not going to get the Q400's. They tell you that your going to get the aircraft. PNC mgt is telling there pilots that colgans is going to get the aircraft .if they dont hurry and sign a contract. I really hate to say it but your guys are being pit against PNC pilots to get them to sign there contracts. Dont think for one second that PNC pilots are going to give you anything. Thier union and you guys are not. dont think for one second that a scope clause want come up shortly, and I bet you shortly that PNC will change mgt in a year or two. and whom will you guys have to work out a new contract. with out one they going to tell you to take what the give it and like it.
 
do you really think Bombardier (sp?) gives one rat cent about a union. This is a business deal and some little alpa group can't stop that. I just don't buy it for one second. Look the pay scales are out, the aircraft are ordered. What can your scope clause do to use? We are not even the same airline. Now I just might be mising the whole picture here and if I am please enlighten me.
 
I was wrong about the RLA. It's the NLRA that prohibits it but that doesn't apply to us. The following does, however.


Main Entry: company union
Function: noun
: an unaffiliated labor union of the employees of a single company
NOTE: Historically, the company union was one formed or dominated by the company. Such unions have been long held to be illegal.


company union. (n.d.). Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law. Retrieved March 27, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/company union



Company Union
Labor union usually considered to be very sympathetic to the management of the company where it is located. It therefore may not represent the true interests of its members since it could be compromised by the company.

Company Union. (n.d.). Dictionary of Business Terms. Retrieved March 28, 2007, from Answers.com Web site: http://www.answers.com/topic/company-union-2
 
Dr King said:
Everyone is right that we need change, so istead of paying a union to get us nowhere over the next three years we should give the committee a chance. If it doesnt work then we only wasted a couple of months and then we can bring the union in.
Click to expand...




?????????????????????????????????????????
 
If the company had good faith intentions of negotiating with the pilot group wouldn't they have already organized a committee to communicate with them long before the union threat? Some questions

1. Does the pilot group get to choose who represents them on this committee or is it the same ten captains (company henchmen) that carry out managements directives.
2. how much experience do the "company appointed" representatives of the pilot group have with negotiating workrules?
3. How experience do they have with drafting rock solid legal contracts that management could not punch right through.
4. If they did come to an agreement would it go to vote with the entire pilot group or would just have to be ratified by the same old 10 captains appointed by the company?
5. What legal obligation would management have to abide by what was agreed to?
6. What legal recourse does an in house committee offer its pilots against violations of the contract?
7. What legal protections does an in house commitee provide?

I personally would like to pick who represents me and I would like a vote in what I accept. Otherwise this commitee is representative of the top company appointed captains and not the pilot group as a whole which does not add up to collective bargaining.
 
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agree. Also, with a union you get free legal help, free medical advice, and numerous other services that can NOT be provided by an in-house committee. I like the idea but would rather pay the 2% for the added services that ALPA provides not because of their contracts etc....

An in-house committee just lacks the credibility and experience when it comes down to it. I am sure everyone thinks that it is a great idea but think:

No federal law protection
No bargaining leverage (besides threatening a union)
No added benefits like legal help if a just in case happens
No medical protection
No uniformity
No options for pilots to appeal i.e. file a grievance
No protection from scheduler abuses
No protection from management abuses i.e. role back your duty times

If an in house committee were to materialize I think it would only prevent a union in the interim. You can only negotiate so much with as little leverage as such a committee has/would have.

Good luck
 
A lot of what is being said on both sides of the pro-con union argument is the truth. The reality is that not much is going to change over the short term with or without a union. However, the immediate legal protection and group representation brought forth by collective bargaining is a necessary evil that will benefit not only the union members but the airline as well.

I believe that the pilot group unionizing was an expected outcome of the sale of the company by managment. I'm not pro-union. Unions protect the weak and sometimes make life difficult for those of us who just want to go to work, get paid, and go on with our lives. In this case however, for our own protection through this management change and looking forward into a period of tremendous growth and subsequent FAA oversight, we have really no other option.

Best of luck to all involved.

VV
 
Sometimes I feel like I work for a different company than what some of you say. I have no experience on the IAH operation and I work at a base that is relatively left alone.

I'm on the fence, but I do enjoy 16 days off and 85 hour pay credits. About a month ago I was sick flew one leg an called out for the rest of the day. I called the next day to get my 3:45 since I called out sick, and lo and behold instead of getting my sick pay they gave me credit for the whole day, 8:00.

Bunk PC, I have witnessed people that should have probably failed but were passed. My experience with training has been if people need extra they get extra, colgan gives people every opurtunity to pass. I've talked to FO's out of training who said they were given extra time to finish as well as on IOE. Colgan has given FO's numerous times to upgrade.(At least 2 to 3 Times).

The lynchpin is Colgan did this now we are pinnacle, even with that being said I'm still on the fence. I've been here 3 plus years so none of this newbie crap. The reason why the senator is Pro union in the senate and not with Colgan Is that he knows first hand how bad they can be. Either way the best thing people can do is get acquinted with all the facts pro and con and decide for themselves. I'm not bad mouthing alpa but make sure you go over everything they represent, good and bad. They Have been going for almost 80 years they are proffesional and give you info in a glossed covered pamphlet with a wonderful song and dance. But learn their good and bad and make an informed decision either way. Alpa is not what it was 20-30 years ago. I think It is a good thing at the mainline level but I'm unsure at the regional and commuter.
 
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well said Thurman. I guess it is just a matter of time before something changes. Pro or Cons with both. I too am undecided.
 
Of course there is good and bad. And like you said, this is no longer Colgan. We are a publicly traded company now. our boss is the stock price and how much money we make for the shareholders. Their goal is to boost the stock price and sell. i am sure the upper management gets paid based on that.

We are not people but tools in their money machine. I don't like feeling that way and want to have a voice.

This thread discusses whether an in house commitee is a sufficient voice and protector of the pilots interest in a company. Not the old family operatoin but the new one that is impersonal and interested in lowering costs as much as possible to boost the stock prices and their personal portolios.

Our QOL and future is not their goal. We have to stand for ourselves. Who do you think can do a better JOB?
 
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Almost 6 years with Colgan has taught me enough to know that if you all dont quit all the fence sittin you're gonna find the fence sittin on you. I've seen great pilots get the shaft because they weren't "available" for day off flying. I mean called to HEF and never seen again!

I've been envolved in a pilot review committee at C8 and it worked ok, but because we were in a hub and spoke system. And that my friends is exactly where Colgan is headed. Like it or not...The base that their not messing with as you say will be history sooner or later because no airline (in their right mind) operates in that manner any more.

Again you might want to get off the fence before you find it sitting squarly on you.
 

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