In house negotiating committee at Colgan

[suupah]

Pro's and Con's

fire away

 

[PCL_128]

Do you mean in place of a union? That would be a very bad idea.

 

[Mr Wu]

Illegal to bargain for pay or benefits.

 

[glfplt]

Do you mean in place of a union? That would be a very bad idea.

Why do you say that?

 

[PCL_128]

Why do you say that?

Take a look at Skywest's SAPA or JetBlue's Pilot Compensation Committee (I think that's what they call it). These two groups have absolutely no power, zero leverage, and therefore produce no results. Management still gives you whatever they want, because the independent "negotiating committee" has no real backing. The Skywest pilots ended up with a 1.5% raise for jet pilots, no raise at all for Brasilia pilots, and a very meager override on block-time for the 70- & 90-seaters. The JetBlue pilots were so upset at the raises that came for the EMB-190 and the complete lack of raises for the Airbus pilots that they now have a group of pilots meeting with ALPA to get an organizing drive started.

If you want any control over your career at all, you need a union. I hope you choose ALPA, but any union is better than none at all.

 

[glfplt]

Take a look at Skywest's SAPA or JetBlue's Pilot Compensation Committee (I think that's what they call it). These two groups have absolutely no power, zero leverage, and therefore produce no results. Management still gives you whatever they want, because the independent "negotiating committee" has no real backing. The Skywest pilots ended up with a 1.5% raise for jet pilots, no raise at all for Brasilia pilots, and a very meager override on block-time for the 70- & 90-seaters. The JetBlue pilots were so upset at the raises that came for the EMB-190 and the complete lack of raises for the Airbus pilots that they now have a group of pilots meeting with ALPA to get an organizing drive started.

If you want any control over your career at all, you need a union. I hope you choose ALPA, but any union is better than none at all.

ok, but i' m sure there are companies out there where committees worked just fine. Remember, the companies you mentioned are large and stable companies. (compared to Colgan) With the high turnover at Colgan, ALPA wouldn't really work. All we really need is the ability to speak as one. We can do that ourselves. Any step towards unification at Colgan is a good step. It just may work.

 

[PCL_128]

ok, but i' m sure there are companies out there where committees worked just fine.

Please cite an example. I can't think of a single case. It didn't work at the aforementioned companies because the concept is faulty.

Remember, the companies you mentioned are large and stable companies. (compared to Colgan) With the high turnover at Colgan, ALPA wouldn't really work.

ALPA provides a support structure that allows small pilot groups with high turnover to continue to provide quality representation. Also, please remember that your company is stable, and the holding company is quite large with over a billion in revenue from it's two subsidiaries. Colgan is no longer a tiny airline squeaking by on razor-thin margins.

All we really need is the ability to speak as one. We can do that ourselves. Any step towards unification at Colgan is a good step. It just may work.

These sorts of "committees" don't provide you any real unification. In reality, there isn't anything to unify behind. The committee has no teeth, so most pilots quickly lose faith and the situation becomes even worse than before because the pilots start in-fighting. The only way to unify and solve your problems together is to bring a union onto the property. Why not the biggest pilots' union on the planet that can provide resources and expertise that no one else can?

 

[glfplt]

Please cite an example. I can't think of a single case. It didn't work at the aforementioned companies because the concept is faulty.



ALPA provides a support structure that allows small pilot groups with high turnover to continue to provide quality representation. Also, please remember that your company is stable, and the holding company is quite large with over a billion in revenue from it's two subsidiaries. Colgan is no longer a tiny airline squeaking by on razor-thin margins.



These sorts of "committees" don't provide you any real unification. In reality, there isn't anything to unify behind. The committee has no teeth, so most pilots quickly lose faith and the situation becomes even worse than before because the pilots start in-fighting. The only way to unify and solve your problems together is to bring a union onto the property. Why not the biggest pilots' union on the planet that can provide resources and expertise that no one else can?

Doesn't Southwest have this committee? and we have some ex-Chicago Express guys that had a committee that worked great for them.
Everyone seems to be generalizing the issues. ALPA may work great at Pinnacle but that doesn't mean they'll work for us.
Interacting with the Colgans is not as difficult as people make it out to be.
I can't speak about life at Pinnacle because i've never even set foot in any of your planes, but i can't imagine it to be as bad as some guys on this board make it out to be.

 

[PCL_128]

Doesn't Southwest have this committee? and we have some ex-Chicago Express guys that had a committee that worked great for them.

No, Southwest pilots have a union called SWAPA. SWAPA pays ALPA a great deal of money for services also. Having flown with one of the former Chicago Express organizing committee members, I can tell you that things were certainly not rosey at Chicago Express without a union.

Everyone seems to be generalizing the issues. ALPA may work great at Pinnacle but that doesn't mean they'll work for us.

ALPA is what you make of it. I know several members of your organizing committee, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that they are dedicated to making Colgan a better place to work. With good local elected reps, ALPA will certainly work great for you and your pilot group.

Interacting with the Colgans is not as difficult as people make it out to be.

That may be true, but you're not just dealing with the Colgans anymore. The Colgans are now nothing but employees of Pinnacle Corp. Phil Trenary allows them to run Colgan operations in a limited capacity for now, but that won't last for long. Remember, you aren't just a pilot for a small turboprop operator in the Northeast and Texas anymore. You're part of a billion dollar corporation with a senior management team that has a horrible history of labor relations.

 

[suupah]

an organized pilot commitee does not offer license protection or protection from bunk pc checks or line checks

 

[sinkrate]

With the high turnover at Colgan, ALPA wouldn't really work.

Experience has shown the exact opposite is true. Pinnacle once lost 30% of its CA's in 3 months. Four years of longevity typically puts you in the top 25% of the seniority list. A strong national union provides a lot of support and stability to the locals when the locals can't keep their positions staffed due to attrition.

 

[Mr Wu]

It didn't take long to go from pay raise to in-house negotiating committee. Looks like the union busting program is moving along nicely. Next, look for them to send us a survey to see what issues we want addressed. They will then pick a couple that don't cost a penny and give them to us. My guess is no hats will be first.

 

[Ben Johnson]

If you want an in house commity make sure you guys elect Chuck Colgan as your rep I am sure he will do a great job. And when you do so look to the past, which I know for most of the colgan crew is in months not years. So let me remind you all of his commitment to you. He has a great history of providing the type of working environemt that any pilot would love. Long hard days, limited sick calls, zero worker protcetion and zero benifits. Just remember you are there to basically work for food seeing as how thats about all your pay check can cover. All you need to be is thankful you have a job.

 

[PCL_128]

an organized pilot commitee does not offer license protection or protection from bunk pc checks or line checks

Not to mention Aeromedical help, a safety structure, an accident investigation team, a legal team, and the list goes on. ALPA is a whole lot more than just negotiating.

 

[XJohXJ]

If you have a union, rather than a committee, your jobs will not be protected. Without a legal union, if any committee members oppose, or in any way bother, management, then they will be fired. Maybe they'll have one of those difficult PC's, or whatever....

 

[I ROCK]

Seriously F the union. All that money for a stupid magazine subscription. Now there it talk of Pinnacle pilots wanting to fly the Q400 and have it written into their new contract. I really still think many people at Colgan are still on the fence about the union. A commitee would be a better idea in my opinion. WE haven't needed a union so far at Colgan. Is the union thing going to even pass? EVeryone I talk to says they aren't voting for it. What is needed for a majority? The union worked really well at Mesa. What do they get like 19 dollars an hour the first year? At least with a committee we are in a position to get some crap done right away because the company doesn't want a union. Unions protect the weak. You bust a PC maybe you shouldn't be flying around human beings. I will give you an example of a committe working well. Look at the now out of businees Tower Air. They had a pilot committee for 15 years and it worked great. Then the union came in and the place is now out of business because because the owner said screw you I am shutting down I don't need all the headaches. What is going to stop Pinnacle from just dissolving COlgan if we get a union and starting a new company? Having a union doesn't mean we are getting anymore money in our paychecks. THey can tell us to screw off just the same. Unions protect the weak and lazy. Until a union comes along that really is there to help us and not just take all of our money than screw them. We will see with this stupid vote I am voting to have a vote because this is America but from the people that I have interacted with I really don't think a union will pass. The union needs to start convincing us more. We havent been crapped on yet we needed to get crapped on by the company first.

 

[glfplt]

Not to mention Aeromedical help, a safety structure, an accident investigation team, a legal team, and the list goes on. ALPA is a whole lot more than just negotiating.

okay, you guys make good points. But ALPA is not an answer to every issue at every airline everywhere. I think you need to look at where you work and decide what's best for you and your airline.
I don't know much about Pinnacle management and you seem to be fairly senior so i'll have to take your word for it.
I love how it's always the same guys that b*&^ch and complain about Colgan, and they make it sound like they speak for all of us. (they don't)
If an important reason that you want a union at Colgan is for liscence and medical protection, then you may need to take a good look in the mirror. I know a lot of people in the training department and i can tell you that nobody in that department is looking to jamm anyone up. The guys that go around crying foul are the guys that should have been let go a long time ago. (i have flown with a lot of them)
Most of the pilots here would much rather keep the 1.9% of their already low pay, keep their noses clean and move on. If an issue arises, they can always get legal help on their own. (yeah it may initially cost more, but if you never use it, you save an incredible amount of money.)
I also know the people on the organizing committee, and most of those guys aren't going to be here in 6 months. Two of those guys are leaving emmidiately.
My point is that ALPA is not a blanket answer to the issues every airline.

 

[Gfunk27]

Most of the pilots i speak to are leaning toward a union at colgan.and it probably will go to a vote and pass. Just the legal representation alone is reason enough, an in-house committee would be a joke to appease everyone. I Haven't fully decided but its clear from the current work rules, and the new payscale, that something more than a powerless committee is needed. This is now a company of almost 400 pilots and growing owned by a major corporation. Alot of people need to get their heads out of the sand and at least be open-minded

 

[jtrain609]

You guys need a union if for nothing more than some protection when (not if) the lists get merged or you get the two companies whipsawed against each other.

Don't think it'll happen? Look at Skywest/ASA.

 

[I ROCK]

Hey I have an idea how about all those who don't work at Colgan shut up especially those with 800 hours and aren't 121 pilots. Sound good? Great!

 

[PCL_128]

What Colgan pilots decide will effect pilots industry-wide. You need to realize that you don't live in a vacuum.

 

[Kaman]

Seriously F the union. All that money for a stupid magazine subscription. Now there it talk of Pinnacle pilots wanting to fly the Q400 and have it written into their new contract. I really still think many people at Colgan are still on the fence about the union. A commitee would be a better idea in my opinion. WE haven't needed a union so far at Colgan. Is the union thing going to even pass? EVeryone I talk to says they aren't voting for it. What is needed for a majority? The union worked really well at Mesa. What do they get like 19 dollars an hour the first year? At least with a committee we are in a position to get some crap done right away because the company doesn't want a union. Unions protect the weak. You bust a PC maybe you shouldn't be flying around human beings. I will give you an example of a committe working well. Look at the now out of businees Tower Air. They had a pilot committee for 15 years and it worked great. Then the union came in and the place is now out of business because because the owner said screw you I am shutting down I don't need all the headaches. What is going to stop Pinnacle from just dissolving COlgan if we get a union and starting a new company? Having a union doesn't mean we are getting anymore money in our paychecks. THey can tell us to screw off just the same. Unions protect the weak and lazy. Until a union comes along that really is there to help us and not just take all of our money than screw them. We will see with this stupid vote I am voting to have a vote because this is America but from the people that I have interacted with I really don't think a union will pass. The union needs to start convincing us more. We havent been crapped on yet we needed to get crapped on by the company first.

Last time I checked you were a "new hire", and if thats the case I suggest you SHUTDAFUCUP... You have no idea what the hell you are talking about and your post is just an attempt to create trouble.

 

[Dr King]

It is amazing to me that you people actually think that alpa will be able to do anything for us. I dont know about you but I am not concerned about retirement, sexual harassment protection or busting my PC. These are the only things that they will be able to protect. At the great lunch in IAD the other day, which was paid for with pilot dues, these were the only solid issues that they claimed they would protect. I know that everyone out there has some issue with this company, but also think about the times that they have helped you out. A new union contract will still allow us to work 16 hour days, be junior assigned, and the same exact pay. Colgan will not have to agree to any terms and there is no way that we will be able to strike because the courts will not allow it. There are times that they make us do an extra leg and if you talk to them they will give you draft pay. THis will all be gone. The company will use the new crappy contract against us. The in house committee would be a good thing. We would be able to negotiate with the company directly and use forming a Union as leverage.

The bottom line is that a union will not pass. I have over 220 people who are not interested in joining the union. The committee is working fast and will start negotiating with management, but we have to do this before the union comes to a vote, otherwise we have nothing to hold over their head.

 

[Dr King]

Last time I checked you were a "new hire", and if thats the case I suggest you SHUTDAFUCUP... You have no idea what the hell you are talking about and your post is just an attempt to create trouble.

I think your wrong, I Rock was dead on. A union is a great thing for large companies where you want to be forever, but when you want to get in and get out it will only hinder us. Almost all the people i talked to who want a union are all the people that dont want to work.

 

[Kaman]

Care to post that list Dr. King? BTW, F-16? Doing what checking fuel samples and cleaning canopies, right? TOOL

 

[waterski]

Alpa Sux

 

[chimichanga]

I was hoping someone else would jump in so I wouldn't have to, but here's the scoop. By even considering an in-house "committee", you are playing into the hand of your management. More specifically, they are playing right out of the Ford & Harrison playbook, and you are going along for the ride. It worked at CommutAir, and it will probably work at Colgan too, because it seems like such a good idea.

You have a relatively small company, with decent relations with your management. You all just want to get along. Some hot-heads want to form a union, but some others think you can form a committee. Does "Mutual Interest Committee" ring any bells with my CommutAir friends? The MIC was "suggested" by a very senior captain who just happened to have close ties to management. It was presented as an alternative to national union representation. Enough people bought the idea that the union was defeated.

Then the committee was formed, ideas were hashed out, plans were made, and meetings were held. A lot of good people put in a lot of hard work. What came of it? A slight increase in the size of the bidding target window. (Now instead of bidding trips that add up to a certain 5-hour range, we have a 10-hour range to hit.) Anything else? Well, we got our health benefits cut and our share of the cost increased. We got a great new attendance policy with the word "termination" occurring more than the word "the". We lost our on-time incentive bonus. Am I forgetting anything?

So, go ahead. Dream about "can't we all just get along." That dream will last until the votes are counted and a union is defeated.

Enjoy!

 

[BirdCatcher]

Seriously F the union. All that money for a stupid magazine subscription. Now there it talk of Pinnacle pilots wanting to fly the Q400 and have it written into their new contract. I really still think many people at Colgan are still on the fence about the union. A commitee would be a better idea in my opinion. WE haven't needed a union so far at Colgan. Is the union thing going to even pass? EVeryone I talk to says they aren't voting for it. What is needed for a majority? The union worked really well at Mesa. What do they get like 19 dollars an hour the first year? At least with a committee we are in a position to get some crap done right away because the company doesn't want a union. Unions protect the weak. You bust a PC maybe you shouldn't be flying around human beings. I will give you an example of a committe working well. Look at the now out of businees Tower Air. They had a pilot committee for 15 years and it worked great. Then the union came in and the place is now out of business because because the owner said screw you I am shutting down I don't need all the headaches. What is going to stop Pinnacle from just dissolving COlgan if we get a union and starting a new company? Having a union doesn't mean we are getting anymore money in our paychecks. THey can tell us to screw off just the same. Unions protect the weak and lazy. Until a union comes along that really is there to help us and not just take all of our money than screw them. We will see with this stupid vote I am voting to have a vote because this is America but from the people that I have interacted with I really don't think a union will pass. The union needs to start convincing us more. We havent been crapped on yet we needed to get crapped on by the company first.

You must be new here

 

[Ben Johnson]

As an ex-colgan now alpa member, i like to think I have seen the two sides. You guys can argue union or non-union all you want. There is no song and dance as to how much better either one will be. Scabs will argue this while alpa argues that. Bottem line what are these guys going to do. A union shop now owns you (not the most feared shop but still a shop). Ever herd of stapled. As to what happenes you Colgan guys are bent over with your ankles in hand. Now do want sand or do you want lube. No one knows how it will play out but think before you act. The choice is simple yes or no but the long list as to why is endless.

Now most of you I am sure do not want to stay with colgan too long but drop I dont care because of the revolving door at colgan B.S. The choices you make do play into effect for the rest of us. If you cant see that well I am not going to explain it. I ll leave that for the next guy

 

[coonass]

Iam shouldnt be commetting on anything about union or non union. The Union will help you guys out more then a committe. I hate to tell all of you colgan guys that yall are a dreaming you better wake up and see how NWA groups work . you guys were bought just to settle the contract negoitate between pinncle mgt and the union there. Prime example is Mesaba and Big Sky airlines Mair bought BIG SKY to get the mesaba pilots to settle on a contract. They told the Mesaba pilot that all of the jet were going to go to BIG SKY and Mesaba would get the B1900. A little while later Mesaba settle on a crapy contract and the Avros stayed on property and the B1900 stayed with Big SKY. Dont you guys think for one second now that your owned by pinchanickel that the pinch pilots want work out with there union a scope clause saying the only thing bigger than a saab will be flow by pinchanickel pilots. I saw the same thing happen at mesaba airlines. Big Sky pilots can only fly 19 seats or less. Mair holdings is trying to get the courts to throw out the scope between mesaba pilots and Mair holding. Any aircarft that Big Sky get bigger the 19 seats are crewed by mesaba pilots.