If/When Spirit Strikes

[enigma]

Aircobra, I once believed as you do.

Then my little "flying club" airline was acquired by people interested in IPO's not airline Ops.

Somewhere along the way, I lost the desire to do anything to help them make more money. I do my job in a professional manner; I save fuel, take care of my equipment and pax, etc. That's all.

I've been behind the scenes in the labor/mangement arena. I was a part of a Spirit MEC that attempted to do business with the "labor should partner with management" philosophy. Middle management worked with us, and we achieved small victories, but upper management did nothing more than spit in our eye.

Sorry, aircobra, but management will get the labor relations they desire and deserve.

 

[enigma]

In all honesty our schedules are no worse than any other airline schedule...and we have the one diamond in our expired contract the 4 days off between trips.

The Spirit ALPA Contract has passed its amendable date, nothing more.

We still have a contract and full RLA protection.

I guess what I am wondering mostly is why would we agree to that steaming pile of a contract that management is offering? I would certainly be much more happy with no changes to the current contract and keep the 4 days off then get a huge raise and go to 2 days off between trips...my .02.

We don't agree to a "steaming pile" company proposal. Simple. We keep talking. Striking is NOT a negotiating tool. Striking is a statement of labors choice to resign rather than continue under the current conditions.

We start showing support for ourselves and continue fighting at the table until the NMB decides an agreement is not possible, at which point we strike/resign with our honor and reputations intact. That's all.

If you don't like the system, you have lots of company, but it is what it is.

?

 

[Mike man]

We still have a contract and full RLA protection.

That is the funniest thing I have ever read in my entire life...full RLA protection, what a crock of pooh. The only thing the RLA does is protect management from labor walking off the job, the intent is to protect both sides with no changes is status quo but, as you know, we have had the rules changed on us more than once since we were protected by the full RLA protections...

401(k)
Wheel roll
4 days off

...please explain how the RLA protects us the labor?

 

[AirCobra]

I am curious. What do you guys think will happen during and after the strike? I am skeptical you will just get anything you want, not when an arbitrator looks at what other airlines are doing, the economy, and how many pilots are on the street. I believe that after a few weeks Spirit management will just declare bankruptcy and blame the strike. Spirit pilots will come back to work with no contract instead of a bad contract and somehow ALPA will still proclaim a moral victory. But hey what do I know? You guys have made it evidently clear that despite a history of over 30 years worth of post deregulation labor/management battles with exactly the same outcome, that this time it will somehow be different.

ALPA: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am curious. What do you guys think will happen during and after the strike? I am skeptical you will just get anything you want, not when an arbitrator looks at what other airlines are doing, the economy, and how many pilots are on the street. I believe that after a few weeks Spirit management will just declare bankruptcy and blame the strike. Spirit pilots will come back to work with no contract instead of a bad contract and somehow ALPA will still proclaim a moral victory. But hey what do I know? You guys have made it evidently clear that despite a history of over 30 years worth of post deregulation labor/management battles with exactly the same outcome, that this time it will somehow be different.

ALPA: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Negative. Your weak argument is repetitive all while you expect a different result.



Let's zoom out and look at this from a marco view.

First off, the pushback you are getting is from pilots who work an honorable profession and have a fair and reasonable expectation to be compensated. It is offensive when you come on this board and basically suggest that they continue to live a diminished lifestyle that is not commensurate with the profession. Safety cost money.

In addition, ALPA's E&FA has looked at the company financials and knows what is reasonable and fair to negotiate. Also, the nmb mediator is involved and moderates the negotiations. Simply put, what you can't comprehend is well within guidelines of the law for fairness and reasonability.

Zoom out a bit more and we can see the classic lines of conservative thought in your posts: (not my quote)

Conservatives believe that government must be restrained and controlled precisely because it’s made up of flawed human beings, “the governed.” This is why they’re willing to allow corporations to take powers — like controlling our health-care system — that they would never allow to government. Corporations are essentially independent entities and totally without morality (and, thus, without immorality or evil). Being amoral they’re less dangerous in the conservative mind than a government controlled by humans, particularly the vast majority of people (whom John Adams called “the rabble”) because those people are, at their core, evil.


The conservatives’ core belief is that if our essential (evil) human nature is not restrained by something — God or priests or corporate bosses [? also humans] — harm will come to society. This is why conservative morality is nearly always focused on restraining individual behavior, particularly private behavior (With whom you are having sex and in what positions or ways? What you are smoking, drinking or snorting? Is there a fetus growing inside you?). And why they’re enthusiastic to “privatize” functions of government, taking the commons out of the hands of We the (evil) People and putting it into the hands of morality-neutral corporations that, in their minds, answer only to a mechanistic and morally neutral “free market.”

​

This has been your mantra from day one... putting full faith in the amoral Captains of Industry, including the management team of Spirit Air. Giving them carte blanc all while chiding professional pilots for wanting fair and reasonable compensation afforded them with the constraints of the law.

Another fine example is the bailouts. Conservatives like you have no problem with a Wall St. bailout, even though the suits knew the risk they were taking would be socialized all while they would privatize the gains. Yet when Obama bails out GM suddenly that is bad because of him and the unions involved.

Representation is a fundamental right in the country and unionization provides that. This should be respected by all citizens, yet most, especially conservatives gladly had over their livelihood to another citizen (corporate bosses) because these bosses are amoral, captains of industry, despite the fact that they are human (greedy).

In the end it all comes down to what you choose to believe to provide a level of comfort. However, ignorance is bliss and when one reaches a level of comfort it is really a position of regression. For hard core right wingers, ideology, not reason and logic are the mental processes that "lead the way". The future lies in the past.

 

[Kalifornia]

I am curious. What do you guys think will happen during and after the strike? I am skeptical you will just get anything you want, not when an arbitrator looks at what other airlines are doing, the economy, and how many pilots are on the street. I believe that after a few weeks Spirit management will just declare bankruptcy and blame the strike. Spirit pilots will come back to work with no contract instead of a bad contract and somehow ALPA will still proclaim a moral victory. But hey what do I know? You guys have made it evidently clear that despite a history of over 30 years worth of post deregulation labor/management battles with exactly the same outcome, that this time it will somehow be different.

ALPA: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Righty ho there sport. You got this game called or am I just being sarcastic. I guess the Hawaiian pilots really f**ked up in their new contract their Air GI Joe. Gosh, how could your blanket attitude towards negotiating professional pilot compensation possibly skip over that carrier. That's in addition to completely ignoring the battle scars of broken carriers has an infinite more times to do with the race to the bottom "hey Bob, let's start up airline" investor get rich quick managements teams then with the ranks of professional pilots and their compensation level.

I wouldn't get all cozy in mindset of mentor PilotYip. He's the same nitwit that thinks high school drop out's do fine in this line of career and who also has proclaimed his reckless disregard for Federal Aviation Regulations by stating a pilot should never challenge MEL's. Don't be that unethical dip.

 

[Mike man]

Don't forget Alaska and JetBlue who have both signed new contracts in the last year or so.

 

[relief tube]

I would have more self-pride flipping burgers than working at spirit.

WhyTF does anyone work there? Makes even Airtran look like Delta or SW.

 

[boomlrd]

I am starting to wonder if AirCobra is one of our new "Top Gun" management types? AirCobra, you wouldn't have been a part of Skybus, would you? Then that scam JetAmerica? If so, then his posts are inline with who he is.

 

[AirCobra]

Negative. Your weak argument is repetitive all while you expect a different result.



Let's zoom out and look at this from a marco view.

First off, the pushback you are getting is from pilots who work an honorable profession and have a fair and reasonable expectation to be compensated. It is offensive when you come on this board and basically suggest that they continue to live a diminished lifestyle that is not commensurate with the profession. Safety cost money.

In addition, ALPA's E&FA has looked at the company financials and knows what is reasonable and fair to negotiate. Also, the nmb mediator is involved and moderates the negotiations. Simply put, what you can't comprehend is well within guidelines of the law for fairness and reasonability.

Zoom out a bit more and we can see the classic lines of conservative thought in your posts: (not my quote)

​

This has been your mantra from day one... putting full faith in the amoral Captains of Industry, including the management team of Spirit Air. Giving them carte blanc all while chiding professional pilots for wanting fair and reasonable compensation afforded them with the constraints of the law.

Another fine example is the bailouts. Conservatives like you have no problem with a Wall St. bailout, even though the suits knew the risk they were taking would be socialized all while they would privatize the gains. Yet when Obama bails out GM suddenly that is bad because of him and the unions involved.

Representation is a fundamental right in the country and unionization provides that. This should be respected by all citizens, yet most, especially conservatives gladly had over their livelihood to another citizen (corporate bosses) because these bosses are amoral, captains of industry, despite the fact that they are human (greedy).

In the end it all comes down to what you choose to believe to provide a level of comfort. However, ignorance is bliss and when one reaches a level of comfort it is really a position of regression. For hard core right wingers, ideology, not reason and logic are the mental processes that "lead the way". The future lies in the past.

Flying is an honorable profession, but your post like several others illustrates the problems I am talking about. There is very little willingness to examine situation outside the particular wants and needs of our labor group. Most complaints are legit when taken individually, but when taken as a whole, it becomes part of an very unproductive ALPA generated narrative of "us against them". The insults by some and the very fact you mention that you are offended that someone dares to disagree with you are indicative of why the same cycles have been repeated for over thirty years. What organization thrives where differing opinions are shouted down and or any suggestion of self examination is met with open hostility?

Up to the usual tactics I see Rez of creating arguments to have with yourself. Where did I ever say to give in to management? Here you are talking about the rights of representation like I am calling for Spirit to de- unionize. I am talking about how to make representation stronger, to have more negotiating power by presenting a united front, not of pilots and Spirit and pilots in Manitoba which ostensibly means nothing to Spirit's management, but of Spirit employees with Spirit employees. I said that we needed to foster better teamwork across the board with other labor groups at the SAME airline, not just with pilot groups at other airlines. The airline is your team, your family, your coworker, your job, and your paycheck. Stronger teamwork across the airline presents a stronger front in dealing with management.

I think honor should not be limited to your labor group but should extend to all your actions. Somehow doing what we were hired to do has been equated with being a sellout. Why has it gotten to the point where trying to save fuel, save time, help the customer, or wearing a uniform as outlined in the company handbook you signed in indoc means you are selling out? Unfortunately sticking it to "the man" often also means sticking it to your coworkers. That is the second part of what I am saying. If you are going to demand respect then you have to demonstrate to your coworkers that you are worthy of it, otherwise they will never support you. Do you inhabit a world where airline pilots are not viewed by the rest of the airline as lazy prima donna's? Because I sure don't. I mean its a running joke even among pilots. So we are already starting in the hole with the way we are viewed by our coworkers and management. With that in mind you have to be playing it better and cleaner than the average employee because you already have two strikes against you. What have you personally done to change that perception. Do you think ALPA demands for respect are going to do anything? Respect and honor starts with your personal actions. Teamwork and professionalism are contagious.

Funny you should mention ignorance is bliss because that is what I think is going on here. What was the outcome of the Comair strike, the United strike, or going way back to the Eastern strike? Why should we expect a different result with Spirit? why because ALPA told you? Virtually every airlines labor relations have become nothing more than a Mexican standoff between pilots and management, despite how different the culture and business model of each airline is. That is how ALPA has played it, us against them. Well that only works if the union is strong and face it unions are losing power so that is why ALPA would be willing to add five guys and a DC-8 or 20 guys flying Navajo's in the Yukon, strength in numbers. Problem is every pilot group is not the same, every companies management is not the same, so this ALPA "one size fits all" approach has further weakened the union. Management's gun in this Mexican standoff keeps getting bigger, while ours keeps getting smaller.

What's your solution, add more Beech 1900 pilots, change the government, change the laws, change Washington, change public opinion? then we will get what we want. Wow sounds complicated. How about fostering teamwork among the people you see everyday asnd work toward building your airline so it grows and prospers because growth and profitability are usually the easiest way to get higher wages. How about presenting a company wide front to management that will have more impact than pilots at other airlines supporting your cause with kind words.

Rez I think this is more important than wanking about politics all day. If you or others care to discuss this without insults, talking about right wingers, CIA death squads, or most of the other crap you like to talk about, I am all ears. Lets have a real discussion about us and ALPA and the future of our profession. How about some real self examination, where have we have failed, what we have done that isn't management's fault. Then, and only then, do I think we will be able to move forward. I think we need a fundamental and radical change. The myopia has got to stop, we have to start dealing with how others perceive us, and the strength in numbers paradigm has run its course. Say I am nuts or whatever but I got 30 years of proof showing the same old-same old, just bigger or louder, is still not working. If you can deny 30 years of history, then I am not the one who is nuts.