Flying is an honorable profession, but your post like several others illustrates the problems I am talking about. There is very little willingness to examine situation outside the particular wants and needs of our labor group. Most complaints are legit when taken individually, but when taken as a whole, it becomes part of an very unproductive ALPA generated narrative of "us against them". The insults by some and the very fact you mention that you are offended that someone dares to disagree with you are indicative of why the same cycles have been repeated for over thirty years. What organization thrives where differing opinions are shouted down and or any suggestion of self examination is met with open hostility?
Wow... amazing and hypocritical. What you are advocating here is the jetblue open door policy or what you have at your current employer. You are getting your lunch handed to you on this thread.... you're the small minority here so now it is described by you as no one welcomes your opinion and that is the root of the problems over the last 30 years. GMAFB.
Up to the usual tactics I see Rez of creating arguments to have with yourself. Where did I ever say to give in to management? Here you are talking about the rights of representation like I am calling for Spirit to de- unionize. I am talking about how to make representation stronger, to have more negotiating power by presenting a united front, not of pilots and Spirit and pilots in Manitoba which ostensibly means nothing to Spirit's management, but of Spirit employees with Spirit employees. I said that we needed to foster better teamwork across the board with other labor groups at the SAME airline, not just with pilot groups at other airlines. The airline is your team, your family, your coworker, your job, and your paycheck. Stronger teamwork across the airline presents a stronger front in dealing with management.
You have already been told that Spirit pilots have tried to the SWA style of working with... it failed. Now the result is a possible strike. I started this thread to show solidarity with the Spirit pilots. The problem when you hook up to other labor groups is you start to negotiate with them whether you like it or not. Suddenly negotiation capital is lost because gains were made for another group. Sorry, when it comes to organized labor, ALPA is the best compared to others. ALPA's leverage would be other groups gain and Spirit pilots loss.
I think honor should not be limited to your labor group but should extend to all your actions. Somehow doing what we were hired to do has been equated with being a sellout. Why has it gotten to the point where trying to save fuel, save time, help the customer, or wearing a uniform as outlined in the company handbook you signed in indoc means you are selling out?
Do you agree with civil disobedience or not. Non violent resistance. At what point do you stop being a slave to master and liberate yourself?
Unfortunately sticking it to "the man" often also means sticking it to your coworkers. That is the second part of what I am saying. If you are going to demand respect then you have to demonstrate to your coworkers that you are worthy of it, otherwise they will never support you. Do you inhabit a world where airline pilots are not viewed by the rest of the airline as lazy prima donna's? Because I sure don't. I mean its a running joke even among pilots. So we are already starting in the hole with the way we are viewed by our coworkers and management. With that in mind you have to be playing it better and cleaner than the average employee because you already have two strikes against you. What have you personally done to change that perception. Do you think ALPA demands for respect are going to do anything? Respect and honor starts with your personal actions. Teamwork and professionalism are contagious.
Sounds fun. But at some point you've got to look at the ROI of the union actions. When it comes down to it, a strike is the only action that gain leverage.
Funny you should mention ignorance is bliss because that is what I think is going on here.
Of course you do, that is because you believe management and CEOs are patriarchs, the father figure and you do as your told, don't talk back and take what you are given.
What was the outcome of the Comair strike, the United strike, or going way back to the Eastern strike? Why should we expect a different result with Spirit? why because ALPA told you? Virtually every airlines labor relations have become nothing more than a Mexican standoff between pilots and management, despite how different the culture and business model of each airline is.
This is untrue. You simply know not what you speak of. There has been zero growth since 2001. Of course you blame ALPA, why would you blame the princes and captains of industry?
That is how ALPA has played it, us against them. Well that only works if the union is strong and face it unions are losing power so that is why ALPA would be willing to add five guys and a DC-8 or 20 guys flying Navajo's in the Yukon, strength in numbers. Problem is every pilot group is not the same, every companies management is not the same, so this ALPA "one size fits all" approach has further weakened the union. Management's gun in this Mexican standoff keeps getting bigger, while ours keeps getting smaller.
That is why each MEC is its own autonomous unit. It works well during growth and has its draw backs in recessions. However, most ALPA pilots like it this way. They don't want a Teamster set up.
What's your solution, add more Beech 1900 pilots, change the government, change the laws, change Washington, change public opinion? then we will get what we want. Wow sounds complicated.
I didn't say that. you did.
How about fostering teamwork among the people you see everyday asnd work toward building your airline so it grows and prospers because growth and profitability are usually the easiest way to get higher wages.
Let me make this excruciatingly clear to you. Pilots do not run Air Lines. Management loves to give guys like you the illusion that you are part of the "team". You buy into it. You love it.....
A pilots job is to safely fly the jet from point A to B. Nothing more or less.
How about presenting a company wide front to management that will have more impact than pilots at other airlines supporting your cause with kind words.
Because management will exploit it. They will let you believe that you are a part of their team.
Rez I think this is more important than wanking about politics all day.
When it comes to CBA's it is all about politics.
If you or others care to discuss this without insults, talking about right wingers, CIA death squads, or most of the other crap you like to talk about, I am all ears.
Yet you've just insulted me. No socialist comment?
Lets have a real discussion about us and ALPA and the future of our profession. How about some real self examination, where have we have failed, what we have done that isn't management's fault.
We just did. You've displayed fundamental beliefs that are exploitable by management. While you are not expected to be, not trying to be, nor will you ever be... however, you'd make a very poor pilot leader.
Then, and only then, do I think we will be able to move forward.
We? You are non union pilot for a corporation. Do you really have an interest in the Air Line Pilot Profession? If so, how and why?
I think we need a fundamental and radical change.
That change will be on CapHill and it is not going to happen. Democracy, what you quite possibly reject, is not about radical change. It is designed to prevent radicals from making change. This is a good thing on a macro level. Then again.. can you tell me why you'd know this?
The myopia has got to stop, we have to start dealing with how others perceive us, and the strength in numbers paradigm has run its course.
Us? You mean 'you'? Regardless, you are incredibly wrong. perception has value, but when it comes down to it, there are two forces that use for leverage: unity and govt support. As I said you wouldn't make a good pilot leader.
Say I am nuts or whatever but I got 30 years of proof showing the same old-same old, just bigger or louder, is still not working. If you can deny 30 years of history, then I am not the one who is nuts.
You are not nuts, just ignorant on the issues. You had an excellent opportunity to learn from the United pilots. They are about the best when it comes to defending and promoting the profession.
Curious what you profession activities have been and what sources you've read.
Yes or no.
Did you give to ALPA PAC?
Did you bring a resolution to your LEC?
Committee work? Committe chair? Elected Rep?
You say you get ALP magazine. There was recently a write up on the RLA and ALPA's work with industry and govt to study changes. Your thoughts?
