If/When Spirit Strikes

[AirCobra]

Righty ho there sport. You got this game called or am I just being sarcastic. I guess the Hawaiian pilots really f**ked up in their new contract their Air GI Joe. Gosh, how could your blanket attitude towards negotiating professional pilot compensation possibly skip over that carrier. That's in addition to completely ignoring the battle scars of broken carriers has an infinite more times to do with the race to the bottom "hey Bob, let's start up airline" investor get rich quick managements teams then with the ranks of professional pilots and their compensation level.

I wouldn't get all cozy in mindset of mentor PilotYip. He's the same nitwit that thinks high school drop out's do fine in this line of career and who also has proclaimed his reckless disregard for Federal Aviation Regulations by stating a pilot should never challenge MEL's. Don't be that unethical dip.

I just asked for an opinion on how you think this scenario will play out and asked yours and anyone else's. There is no blanket attitude. Spirit exists only as long as it can keep its costs low. It hasn't crossed the hump Southwest and Air Tran did and still ostensibly resides in West Pac, Skybus territory. Every airline starts as a "hey Bob, let's start up airline". Spirit has yet to move past that point.

Spirit can't stagnate otherwise it won't survive. It's going to pour its profits into expansion and new planes, not into increasing overhead to make the pilot group happy. If they can't grow they won't be attractive to loan money too. Its also a horrible time to strike. Airline travel is way down, so I think Spirit can let pilots sit this one out until they give up, and if that fails the old Chapter 11 void the contracts start over again. I don't think Spirit has any real merger potential, so I don't think that will happen, not that would be great for their pilot group either.

As far as PilotYip goes he has probably done more to get pilots jobs than ALPA or you ever have. USA Jet is what it is and he never sold it as anything else, not that I have seen. There are plenty of guys that got their start at USA Jet when they were paying way more than a regional or went there when they couldn't get a job or had been furloughed. Perhaps some people are just more pragmatic than others or maybe have been around the block a few times to know what is the real deal and what is just more smoke being blown up your a$$. ALPA always presents the same narrative, and all I am saying and probably Pilotyip is too, is given the last 30 years, believe that narrative at your own peril.

 

[Lear70]

The problem is that you're one of the only 2 or 3 people advocating a "let's play nice with management even as they continually degrade our income and quality of life even as they are profitable" approach. When you are outnumbered 10 to 1 in your thought process, I would suggest that it's YOUR thought process that's skewed from reality, statistically-speaking.

As far as REAL self-examination of where we have failed as a union? That's easy:

1. Failure to see the dangers of deregulation and have a lobbying group in place to fight it back when it occurred.
2. Failure to see the dangers of Scope degradation and allowing ANY flying to be farmed out from the major airline to any "partner".
3. Failure to see the dangers of lack of Pension Reform and not lobbying strongly enough to protect from the corporate raiding of the Pension funding when markets surged suddenly, providing a nice source of cash for executive bonuses.
4. Failure to provide some type of segregation between bargaining units of a parent Major and its feeders (Delta vs ASA/Comair etc). Thereby having the same parent agent fighting for the same flying between brands and making it difficult for ALPA to engage in any meaningful "take it back" approach to Scope erosion.
5. Failure to enact some type of "minimum acceptable compensation" point for each type of aircraft flying and apply it across the board, no matter how financially solvent (or insolvent) an airline is? Can't afford to pay those pilots that fair wage? Then you shouldn't be in business.
6. Failure to lobby effectively for an end to government subsidizing of airlines and an end to multiple bankruptcy protections for airlines. Airlines should NOT be able to continually fly a route UNDER THE BREAK-EVEN PRICE TO PRODUCE THAT ROUTE and the government should not get to subsidize that route just to get some type of service to rural areas. You want to subsidize an airline? Re-regulate the industry as a whole. Otherwise, let airlines succeed or die based on their ability to be profitable.
7. Failure to create a guild entrance gatekeeper, similar to the AMA or ABA, thereby allowing any kid with deep-pocketed parents to buy their way into a job, regardless of their ability to fly and, more importantly, devaluing that job to those kids who didn't have to work that hard to obtain it. Arguably, if I can spend a summer and get all my ratings while going surfing every afternoon, I submit to you that it's easy to get into this profession and it shouldn't be.

Problems to the above?

Prices would probably double for airline tickets nearly overnight. Of course, arguably, this has needed to happen for some time. This is the ONLY industry I can think of where the price of the product has DECLINED by 50-60% over time as inflation and the CPI increases 2-3% yearly, despite the fact that the cost to produce the product has risen almost linearly with the CPI.

There would be a greatly-diminished demand for the product that would put a lot MORE pilots out of work. Arguably, there's too many of us as it is. See point #7 above.

Management would fight it all tooth and nail. You talk about how we'd solve things that management didn't create? You forget one crucial detail: it's management and the ATA that management created as its lobbying agent that helped obtain almost all of the above issues. Management has been thinking 3-4 steps ahead of pilots for DECADES... that's why the NPRM from the FAA on the increased ATP standards for 121 flying has a loophole in it for future ab-initio programs. They won't be needed for a decade, but the loophole is there and, if it's not closed, we'll be arguing about this in another 12-15 years how we missed yet ANOTHER problem.

Bottom line is that without a HUGE push-back from ALPA (or any large, organized group of pilots), we're NEVER going to get back to where this career was even 15-20 years ago (and yes, I was flying then, too). They've taken SO MUCH over the years, that getting ANY of it back is going to appear to be asking for HUGE gains from management and yes, it will cost a LOT of VERY REAL money to obtain.

YIP and I have had this argument ad-nauseum, you're just coming late to the show. The sad fact is that gaining those things back is going to put 10-15% of the pilot force out of work and shut down a few airlines along the way. It's going to be painful. It's going to be a long and arduous process. But either we do it or we resign ourselves to the fact that we're going to make less and be treated worse than our blue-collar Garbage collectors / plumbers / bus drivers in this country.

You can resign yourself to that after I've retired.

 

[AirCobra]

I am starting to wonder if AirCobra is one of our new "Top Gun" management types? AirCobra, you wouldn't have been a part of Skybus, would you? Then that scam JetAmerica? If so, then his posts are inline with who he is.

Maybe I am just a dumb Jarhead but we used to study previous battles to determine what went wrong so we don't keep making the same mistakes over and over again. Like we learned that frontal assaults on fixed positions are not a good idea so we wouldn't repeatt Pickett's Charge, or that using helicopters for deep attack like the Army does tends not to work out so well, and the variation between Marine helo losses in Iraq and Army helo losses bears this out. So if we start talking about strikes my Jarhead tendency is to look at the past two big ALPA strikes, United and Comair. How did those turn out in the long run? And we are talking about United and Comair here, very large airlines (or at least used to be), not a tiny little discount carrier. So if its "Top Gun" management to look at the past and use those lessons learned so as not to make the same mistakes twice, then I guess I am whatever you say. What do you do when you make decisions, do whatever ALPA tells you, because they still seem pretty much set on more and more Pickett's Charges' to me.

 

[AirCobra]

The problem is that you're one of the only 2 or 3 people advocating a "let's play nice with management even as they continually degrade our income and quality of life even as they are profitable" approach. When you are outnumbered 10 to 1 in your thought process, I would suggest that it's YOUR thought process that's skewed from reality, statistically-speaking.

Statistically speaking is what we have been doing through ALPA over the past 30 years been working? It reminds me of Viet Nam, its never change the strategy, the answer is always more troops. ALPA just wants more membership, strength in numbers. That's it, lets make it bigger and louder and we will be heard. Too bad no one is listening. Isn't it time for a change in strategy? I am outnumbered 10-1, so, what do the 10 have to show in terms of results? If the 10 have no ability for self examination, can't ever change their way of thinking, and keep making the same mistakes over and over, then I am happy I man not part of that 10.

I am saying play nice with your coworkers because an all around team effort will improve your bargaining position much more than support of other pilots from other companies. I am also saying understand market realities that if every industry is in a downturn that you will probably be too, so going to get ugly before it gets better. Finally get off the ALPA Kool Aid and start thinking for yourself, realize that ALPA's one size fits all approach doesn't work. Start thinking about what is best for your airline.

 

[Mike man]

I am starting to wonder if AirCobra is one of our new "Top Gun" management types? AirCobra, you wouldn't have been a part of Skybus, would you? Then that scam JetAmerica? If so, then his posts are inline with who he is.

You are correct...it does sound like his nonsensical rantings, "like in NASCAR there are no points for second place" what a moron, especially with NASCAR...they give out points for taking a pit stop. Anyway...

I should add that the Spirit MEC tried a lets cooperate approach with management, it was at best a complete failure for the pilot group--and a success for the chosen ones.

 

[AirCobra]

You are correct...it does sound like his nonsensical rantings, "like in NASCAR there are no points for second place" what a moron, especially with NASCAR...they give out points for taking a pit stop. Anyway...

I should add that the Spirit MEC tried a lets cooperate approach with management, it was at best a complete failure for the pilot group--and a success for the chosen ones.

As opposed to the totally sesible actions of doing the exact same things over, and over, and over, and over, and expecting a different result. Nope that is not moronic at all.

Did you encourage a let's cooperate approch with other employee groups or lets build a unified front, or did you just worry about your contract and what you can get out of it?

How about you Mike, if it comes to a strike what do you think will happen?

 

[AirCobra]

The problem is that you're one of the only 2 or 3 people advocating a "let's play nice with management even as they continually degrade our income and quality of life even as they are profitable" approach. When you are outnumbered 10 to 1 in your thought process, I would suggest that it's YOUR thought process that's skewed from reality, statistically-speaking.

As far as REAL self-examination of where we have failed as a union? That's easy:

1. Failure to see the dangers of deregulation and have a lobbying group in place to fight it back when it occurred.
2. Failure to see the dangers of Scope degradation and allowing ANY flying to be farmed out from the major airline to any "partner".
3. Failure to see the dangers of lack of Pension Reform and not lobbying strongly enough to protect from the corporate raiding of the Pension funding when markets surged suddenly, providing a nice source of cash for executive bonuses.
4. Failure to provide some type of segregation between bargaining units of a parent Major and its feeders (Delta vs ASA/Comair etc). Thereby having the same parent agent fighting for the same flying between brands and making it difficult for ALPA to engage in any meaningful "take it back" approach to Scope erosion.
5. Failure to enact some type of "minimum acceptable compensation" point for each type of aircraft flying and apply it across the board, no matter how financially solvent (or insolvent) an airline is? Can't afford to pay those pilots that fair wage? Then you shouldn't be in business.
6. Failure to lobby effectively for an end to government subsidizing of airlines and an end to multiple bankruptcy protections for airlines. Airlines should NOT be able to continually fly a route UNDER THE BREAK-EVEN PRICE TO PRODUCE THAT ROUTE and the government should not get to subsidize that route just to get some type of service to rural areas. You want to subsidize an airline? Re-regulate the industry as a whole. Otherwise, let airlines succeed or die based on their ability to be profitable.
7. Failure to create a guild entrance gatekeeper, similar to the AMA or ABA, thereby allowing any kid with deep-pocketed parents to buy their way into a job, regardless of their ability to fly and, more importantly, devaluing that job to those kids who didn't have to work that hard to obtain it. Arguably, if I can spend a summer and get all my ratings while going surfing every afternoon, I submit to you that it's easy to get into this profession and it shouldn't be.

Problems to the above?

Prices would probably double for airline tickets nearly overnight. Of course, arguably, this has needed to happen for some time. This is the ONLY industry I can think of where the price of the product has DECLINED by 50-60% over time as inflation and the CPI increases 2-3% yearly, despite the fact that the cost to produce the product has risen almost linearly with the CPI.

There would be a greatly-diminished demand for the product that would put a lot MORE pilots out of work. Arguably, there's too many of us as it is. See point #7 above.

Management would fight it all tooth and nail. You talk about how we'd solve things that management didn't create? You forget one crucial detail: it's management and the ATA that management created as its lobbying agent that helped obtain almost all of the above issues. Management has been thinking 3-4 steps ahead of pilots for DECADES... that's why the NPRM from the FAA on the increased ATP standards for 121 flying has a loophole in it for future ab-initio programs. They won't be needed for a decade, but the loophole is there and, if it's not closed, we'll be arguing about this in another 12-15 years how we missed yet ANOTHER problem.

Bottom line is that without a HUGE push-back from ALPA (or any large, organized group of pilots), we're NEVER going to get back to where this career was even 15-20 years ago (and yes, I was flying then, too). They've taken SO MUCH over the years, that getting ANY of it back is going to appear to be asking for HUGE gains from management and yes, it will cost a LOT of VERY REAL money to obtain.

YIP and I have had this argument ad-nauseum, you're just coming late to the show. The sad fact is that gaining those things back is going to put 10-15% of the pilot force out of work and shut down a few airlines along the way. It's going to be painful. It's going to be a long and arduous process. But either we do it or we resign ourselves to the fact that we're going to make less and be treated worse than our blue-collar Garbage collectors / plumbers / bus drivers in this country.

You can resign yourself to that after I've retired.

I forgot to add, all around an excellent post. I would like to see something like this from Rez or a strike happy Spirit guy. I get ALPA's magazine and all I see is sunshine an light, never "this is how we F'ed up", so that is why I think no learning ever takes place. It seems ALPA is just trying to sell membership, and I think its because of the misguided belief that strength in numbers and Mexican standoffs with management are the only solutions.

Well I guess I'll just go back to getting shouted down 10-1 now since questioning ALPA's narrative and strategy has no place in pilotdom. Careful with those seven points or you may also get labled a moron.

 

[pilotyip]

So a return to regulation and elimination of a lot of pilot jobs is the answer? Great for senior guys, not too good for anyone else.

 

[Lear70]

So a return to regulation and elimination of a lot of pilot jobs is the answer? Great for senior guys, not too good for anyone else.

It's ONE of the answers. All of them are relatively painful:

1. Re-regulate the industry. Hell, even Crandall admitted that deregulation was an abysmal failure in terms of sustained industry profitability.

2. Implement an industry-wide minimum wage structure. NO ALPA contract gets passed without hourly rates, duty and rest rigs, minimum days off, vacation, and retirement meet the mins set for that equipment type. ALPA has always retained the right of presidential veto of any T.A. reached, although that is seldom used (I think it was used once in over 40+ years).

3. Lobby for a new Federal Law that REQUIRES airlines to price EACH, INDIVIDUAL flight segment AT or ABOVE the price it costs to produce it. Too many airlines flying some routes at a loss just to slow the bleeding until the economy improves or to compete with other people who have lower costs on that route. The problem with that is it artificially depresses the price of the product below the break-even point and airlines go bankrupt doing so, just to file reorganization and come back and do it all again. If an airline were forced to price it break-even or better, they'd have to abandon the route if they couldn't make money on it, thereby allowing the other carrier to raise their price on that route. Customers would hate it, but it would return airlines to profitability, although yes, it would cost jobs (every REASONABLE alternative does).

4. Lobby for a minimum entrance standards for ALL commercial pilots. Similar to the bill that's currently being worked to require an ATP but WITHOUT any loopholes. Dry up the supply artificially.

5. Each, individual pilot commits themselves to raising the industry bar and no one settles for less. This is an ethical argument, for the most part, as human nature is to take care of one's self at the expense of others - survival of the fittest and all that. However, due to the disproportionate numbers of pilots who regularly prove they'll take ANY flying job, undercutting others to get it, this option is pretty much a waste of time.

6. Play nice, hope for the best, and just be happy to have a job. However, this type of thinking is what GOT us to where we are to begin with. Obviously this won't work with the management teams running 99% of the airlines.

You have any better suggestions, Mr. Wizard? (couldn't resist the facetious ending remark, owe you another beer for that one).

 

[Whine Lover]

" So a return to regulation and elimination of a lot of ( sh1tty ) pilot jobs is the answer?"

Sounds good to me.


YKW

 

[pilotyip]

Beer good , Strike Bad

It's ONE of the answers. All of them are relatively painful:

4. Lobby for a minimum entrance standards for ALL commercial pilots. Similar to the bill that's currently being worked to require an ATP but WITHOUT any loopholes. Dry up the supply artificially.

You have any better suggestions, Mr. Wizard? (couldn't resist the facetious ending remark, owe you another beer for that one).

How about making the ACT score of 28 or a SAT of 1280, a requirement to hold an ATP, that would reduce the ranks a lot. Another good answer right?, beer would taste good. What ever action is taken, there will be unintended consquences, those are the things that would worry me.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

Aircobra,

You mention both United and Comair strikes in a few of your posts earlier. I think you meant Northwest, but you asked what they accomplished, so here goes: United's strike of 1985 stopped Dick Ferris from turning the company into a bottomfeeder like Lorenzo's CAL was at the time, cutting pay by 50% and destroying work rules. Had Ferris succeeded the profession would likely be a lot worse off than it is today. The NWA strike in 1998 gave their pilots industry leading pay, while the company was still able to be profitable until 9/11. The Comair strike also led to briefly industry leading pay and work rules, which were quickly surpassed by Air Wisconsin and Horizon. Everything that has happened to Comair since (and any other regional with a decent contract) has been a direct result of the spineless Mesa pilots refusing to stand up for themselves and the profession, ratifying their abortion of a contract in Spring '03, which was then used as a hammer by every mainline management to get their regionals to take concessions or have their flying replaced by Mesa, and soon CHQ as well.

There comes a time when this profession just isn't worth it anymore. If Spirit mgt succeeds in imposing the concessions they are demanding WHILE THE COMPANY IS PROFITABLE nonetheless, that may be the point where burning the house down with honor intact is preferable to going to work everyday with their tails between their legs.

 

[AirCobra]

Aircobra,

You mention both United and Comair strikes in a few of your posts earlier. I think you meant Northwest, but you asked what they accomplished, so here goes: United's strike of 1985 stopped Dick Ferris from turning the company into a bottomfeeder like Lorenzo's CAL was at the time, cutting pay by 50% and destroying work rules. Had Ferris succeeded the profession would likely be a lot worse off than it is today. The NWA strike in 1998 gave their pilots industry leading pay, while the company was still able to be profitable until 9/11. The Comair strike also led to briefly industry leading pay and work rules, which were quickly surpassed by Air Wisconsin and Horizon. Everything that has happened to Comair since (and any other regional with a decent contract) has been a direct result of the spineless Mesa pilots refusing to stand up for themselves and the profession, ratifying their abortion of a contract in Spring '03, which was then used as a hammer by every mainline management to get their regionals to take concessions or have their flying replaced by Mesa, and soon CHQ as well.

There comes a time when this profession just isn't worth it anymore. If Spirit mgt succeeds in imposing the concessions they are demanding WHILE THE COMPANY IS PROFITABLE nonetheless, that may be the point where burning the house down with honor intact is preferable to going to work everyday with their tails between their legs.

The '85 strike never needed to happen. United management wanted to implement a B Scale just like American had, it was nothing like Lorenzo or turning United into a giant Lorenzo like holding company. Comair got no support from Delta's pilot group and that industry leading pay you mentioned was like being the thinnest kid at fat camp. You also said "briefly" well that is my whole point, you have everything to lose and but even when you win and there are gains its always "briefly". In 2000 United had the best contract in the industry...briefly. Long term effect is what I am talking about. What will the long term effect be on Spirit? All 'profitable' means is Spirit is going to buy new aircraft and try to increase its market share, it doesn't mean they are going to divide up percentages of that profit and give it to labor groups even if pilots do get concessions. Just look for ticket prices to get higher and the subsequent implications of doing so at the airline with the lowest customer satisfaction in the industry. Perhaps we should get classes on managing expectations as part of indoc.

As far as the rest of your last papagraph, I never took anything from my employers as an affront to my honor. I would never had gone to work at a place like Spirit in the first place because I imagined exactly what it would be like, and it seems like I was right. I had a buddy turn down a job at AirTran a few years back for the same reasons, seems he was right too. What would you tell a guy who goes to say, Mesa, and then gets treated bad? "hey dude I told you Mesa sucks and not to go there." No hard feelings, nothing personal. Its not an indictment of the profession, its just an indictment of that company.

 

[Mike man]

...it doesn't mean they are going to divide up percentages of that profit and give it to labor groups even if pilots do get concessions.

If the labor groups are helping to finance the growth (with a concessionary contract), why wouldn't they give out a percentage?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

From military comparisons which are completely irrelevant on so many facets to being a management sycophant.......

 

[AirCobra]

If the labor groups are helping to finance the growth (with a concessionary contract), why wouldn't they give out a percentage?

Therein lies your mistake. Spirit's, and any airline's really, main goal is to capture more market share. Your concessions will go to accomplish that goal. You said yourself they were getting new planes. Even if an airline turns a profit for a year but shows no growth the year is considered a failure. It paints a picture of potential weakness that makes banks less likely to loan money for further expansion. Just because they made a profit doesn't mean they are just going to sit back and congratulate themselves. I would venture to say that money has been spent or leveraged already. Put away anything ALPA gives you because they will just tell you want you want to hear. You are not going to see any profits divvied up and given to you if you threaten to strike. Try and find out everything you can about Oaktree Capital and why they loaned Spirit the money and what they expect in return.

 

[AirCobra]

From military comparisons which are completely irrelevant on so many facets to being a management sycophant.......

Nope we all know "its all managements fault." Do you have that embroidered into your Snuggie so you and your favorite excuse for doing nothing can snuggle up and be all warm and toasty each night.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nope we all know "its all managements fault." Do you have that embroidered into your Snuggie so you and your favorite excuse for doing nothing can snuggle up and be all warm and toasty each night.

It is management's responsibility, something you've failed to learn.

Learning: a change in behavior as a result of experience.


Once again, the conservative blueprint and mindset comes out... corporations are good. CEOs= partiarch father figure... do as your told, don't talk back, be thankful for what you are given.

 

[AirCobra]

It is management's responsibility, something you've failed to learn.

Learning: a change in behavior as a result of experience.


Once again, the conservative blueprint and mindset comes out... corporations are good. CEOs= partiarch father figure... do as your told, don't talk back, be thankful for what you are given.

You mean thirty years of doing the same things with the same results and getting nowhere has yet to teach you anything. What do you need another 30 years?

As far as your last paragraph goes keep you clown antics for the circus. No one said this but you. I guess the topic doesn't matter. Just create more arguments you can have with yourself.

Hey let me ask you when it comes to driving down wages at Spirit when is it managements fault, and when it is the fault of retired military pilots? Do you have a chart or something? When an airline pays well is it because there are less retired military pilots at that airline?

Rez face it you have just said too many stupid things to be taken as credible or serious. Why don't you let people with something meaningful to say have a discussion, and you just run along now, get into your Snuggie and have a nice cup of warm milk..... Shhh! the adults are talking.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Flying is an honorable profession, but your post like several others illustrates the problems I am talking about. There is very little willingness to examine situation outside the particular wants and needs of our labor group. Most complaints are legit when taken individually, but when taken as a whole, it becomes part of an very unproductive ALPA generated narrative of "us against them". The insults by some and the very fact you mention that you are offended that someone dares to disagree with you are indicative of why the same cycles have been repeated for over thirty years. What organization thrives where differing opinions are shouted down and or any suggestion of self examination is met with open hostility?

Wow... amazing and hypocritical. What you are advocating here is the jetblue open door policy or what you have at your current employer. You are getting your lunch handed to you on this thread.... you're the small minority here so now it is described by you as no one welcomes your opinion and that is the root of the problems over the last 30 years. GMAFB.

Up to the usual tactics I see Rez of creating arguments to have with yourself. Where did I ever say to give in to management? Here you are talking about the rights of representation like I am calling for Spirit to de- unionize. I am talking about how to make representation stronger, to have more negotiating power by presenting a united front, not of pilots and Spirit and pilots in Manitoba which ostensibly means nothing to Spirit's management, but of Spirit employees with Spirit employees. I said that we needed to foster better teamwork across the board with other labor groups at the SAME airline, not just with pilot groups at other airlines. The airline is your team, your family, your coworker, your job, and your paycheck. Stronger teamwork across the airline presents a stronger front in dealing with management.

You have already been told that Spirit pilots have tried to the SWA style of working with... it failed. Now the result is a possible strike. I started this thread to show solidarity with the Spirit pilots. The problem when you hook up to other labor groups is you start to negotiate with them whether you like it or not. Suddenly negotiation capital is lost because gains were made for another group. Sorry, when it comes to organized labor, ALPA is the best compared to others. ALPA's leverage would be other groups gain and Spirit pilots loss.

I think honor should not be limited to your labor group but should extend to all your actions. Somehow doing what we were hired to do has been equated with being a sellout. Why has it gotten to the point where trying to save fuel, save time, help the customer, or wearing a uniform as outlined in the company handbook you signed in indoc means you are selling out?

Do you agree with civil disobedience or not. Non violent resistance. At what point do you stop being a slave to master and liberate yourself?

Unfortunately sticking it to "the man" often also means sticking it to your coworkers. That is the second part of what I am saying. If you are going to demand respect then you have to demonstrate to your coworkers that you are worthy of it, otherwise they will never support you. Do you inhabit a world where airline pilots are not viewed by the rest of the airline as lazy prima donna's? Because I sure don't. I mean its a running joke even among pilots. So we are already starting in the hole with the way we are viewed by our coworkers and management. With that in mind you have to be playing it better and cleaner than the average employee because you already have two strikes against you. What have you personally done to change that perception. Do you think ALPA demands for respect are going to do anything? Respect and honor starts with your personal actions. Teamwork and professionalism are contagious.

Sounds fun. But at some point you've got to look at the ROI of the union actions. When it comes down to it, a strike is the only action that gain leverage.

Funny you should mention ignorance is bliss because that is what I think is going on here.

Of course you do, that is because you believe management and CEOs are patriarchs, the father figure and you do as your told, don't talk back and take what you are given.

What was the outcome of the Comair strike, the United strike, or going way back to the Eastern strike? Why should we expect a different result with Spirit? why because ALPA told you? Virtually every airlines labor relations have become nothing more than a Mexican standoff between pilots and management, despite how different the culture and business model of each airline is.

This is untrue. You simply know not what you speak of. There has been zero growth since 2001. Of course you blame ALPA, why would you blame the princes and captains of industry?

That is how ALPA has played it, us against them. Well that only works if the union is strong and face it unions are losing power so that is why ALPA would be willing to add five guys and a DC-8 or 20 guys flying Navajo's in the Yukon, strength in numbers. Problem is every pilot group is not the same, every companies management is not the same, so this ALPA "one size fits all" approach has further weakened the union. Management's gun in this Mexican standoff keeps getting bigger, while ours keeps getting smaller.

That is why each MEC is its own autonomous unit. It works well during growth and has its draw backs in recessions. However, most ALPA pilots like it this way. They don't want a Teamster set up.

What's your solution, add more Beech 1900 pilots, change the government, change the laws, change Washington, change public opinion? then we will get what we want. Wow sounds complicated.

I didn't say that. you did.

How about fostering teamwork among the people you see everyday asnd work toward building your airline so it grows and prospers because growth and profitability are usually the easiest way to get higher wages.

Let me make this excruciatingly clear to you. Pilots do not run Air Lines. Management loves to give guys like you the illusion that you are part of the "team". You buy into it. You love it.....

A pilots job is to safely fly the jet from point A to B. Nothing more or less.

How about presenting a company wide front to management that will have more impact than pilots at other airlines supporting your cause with kind words.

Because management will exploit it. They will let you believe that you are a part of their team.

Rez I think this is more important than wanking about politics all day.

When it comes to CBA's it is all about politics.

If you or others care to discuss this without insults, talking about right wingers, CIA death squads, or most of the other crap you like to talk about, I am all ears.

Yet you've just insulted me. No socialist comment?

Lets have a real discussion about us and ALPA and the future of our profession. How about some real self examination, where have we have failed, what we have done that isn't management's fault.

We just did. You've displayed fundamental beliefs that are exploitable by management. While you are not expected to be, not trying to be, nor will you ever be... however, you'd make a very poor pilot leader.

Then, and only then, do I think we will be able to move forward.

We? You are non union pilot for a corporation. Do you really have an interest in the Air Line Pilot Profession? If so, how and why?

I think we need a fundamental and radical change.

That change will be on CapHill and it is not going to happen. Democracy, what you quite possibly reject, is not about radical change. It is designed to prevent radicals from making change. This is a good thing on a macro level. Then again.. can you tell me why you'd know this?

The myopia has got to stop, we have to start dealing with how others perceive us, and the strength in numbers paradigm has run its course.

Us? You mean 'you'? Regardless, you are incredibly wrong. perception has value, but when it comes down to it, there are two forces that use for leverage: unity and govt support. As I said you wouldn't make a good pilot leader.

Say I am nuts or whatever but I got 30 years of proof showing the same old-same old, just bigger or louder, is still not working. If you can deny 30 years of history, then I am not the one who is nuts.

You are not nuts, just ignorant on the issues. You had an excellent opportunity to learn from the United pilots. They are about the best when it comes to defending and promoting the profession.

Curious what you profession activities have been and what sources you've read.

Yes or no.

Did you give to ALPA PAC?

Did you bring a resolution to your LEC?

Committee work? Committe chair? Elected Rep?

You say you get ALP magazine. There was recently a write up on the RLA and ALPA's work with industry and govt to study changes. Your thoughts?