If/When Spirit Strikes

[PCL_128]

Aircobra, in all of this back and forth nonsense, you have still failed to point out even a single suggestion for how things should be changed. All you do is say that ALPA's ways don't work (I completely disagree, of course), but you offer no alternatives whatsoever. As Rez would say, that just makes you a "hater." Do you have anything constructive to add, or just more attacks?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

From Rez:

I am tired of MIL guys showing with with their pensions and health bennies and not giving a damm about their fellow pilots who are trying to make it better for them. The MIL guys deserve their bennies, but they also are expected to support their fellow pilots in an effort to gain a fair and reasonable contract for themselves and their family.

Rez, once again you swing for the bleachers and strike out. YGBFSM with this remark. I was enjoying the back and forth until you crammed your head up your a$$ and farted this gem out. I would venture to guess that a very large percentage of airline pilots have a military history and a very very large percentage of them are not collecting a pension or health bennies.

Then my comments would no apply to them.

You see, they got out or are reservists. I don't know of any military pilots who do not support their fellow pilots. In fact, I would venture to guess the majority of mil pilots support their fellow pilots because that is what we do...watch each other's back. In fact, I personally know of three pilots (there are more) at Alaska Airlines that are still working because mil pilots opted to go on orders to keep them on property. They opted to go fly to war instead of letting the company throw more pilots on the street.

Noble effort on their part. I am sure it was an acillary point in the decision process, but not reason they went on a MIL LOA.

We have engaged on the military issue in the past and you came up WAY short in your knowledge of the military and the people who serve. Maybe in the future you could just shut your pie-hole on this issue. Your conspiracy theories and anti-military blather are getting old.

Now back to the rant.....

You have failed to bring up and adddress the issue! You spoke of reservist/guard guys that are not a MIL pension or healthplan (unless they are on active duty) and you spoke of guys who took a MIL LOA...

What you failed to address is the MIL guys (that have said this in my presence) that they really don't care about air line pay and benefits because thet already got that covered. Often these are guys that wanted to be MIL pilots or were NFO/WSOs and built CIV time over the years, retired then decided to "fullfill" a dream and go fly in the airlines. As I said, they deserve the bennies and should use them just as a spouse whose employer offers a better plan would....

Address the issue... guys who are indifferent because "they got theirs". It is a real slap in the face when you are trying to pay the house note, keep your family healthy and working to better your CBA. Is this all of the MIL guys? Nope. I never said it was... I said it was the guys who displayed the attitude of indifference. Same as a pilot who was on his/her spouse plan and had this indifference.

Nothing worse than managment telling your negotiators that you don't need a health plan because plenty of other guys don't care..... or the one they are offering is a POS.

 

[AirCobra]

Aircobra, in all of this back and forth nonsense, you have still failed to point out even a single suggestion for how things should be changed. All you do is say that ALPA's ways don't work (I completely disagree, of course), but you offer no alternatives whatsoever. As Rez would say, that just makes you a "hater." Do you have anything constructive to add, or just more attacks?

PCL you were doing the same things right along with Rez on the old posts I looked at dealing with many of these issues . The insults, the "if you don't like it get lost" attitude. Calling anyone or everyone that says anything against ALPA a "hater" is hardly constructive. I pointed out things I thought would help, all you guys offered is the same old rhetoric and the same old solutions I have been hearing since I became an ALPA member 15 years ago. What I offer may not work, but what you offer hasn't worked, so where does that leave us? ALPA's solutions continue to be the same as they have been for the last 30 years as if nothing has changed regarding labor and bankruptcy laws. What does any solution or suggestion I or anyone else offers when supposed leadership like you and Rez have failed to admit there is even a problem solely out of fear it may make us look bad.

There are dozens of other posters through the years who have tried to discuss problems, we can't all be haters.

 

[PCL_128]

You've suggested nothing! You're only so-called suggestion is to "stop doing the same things." Well, if we're going to stop doing one thing, what do we do instead? You've offered nothing but attacks and the usual neo-con pro-corporate, anti-labor drivel.

 

[Mamma]

Then my comments would no apply to them.

Why even post something this stupid is my point. Sure there are MIL guys who feel this way but the VAST majority don't.


Noble effort on their part. I am sure it was an acillary point in the decision process, but not reason they went on a MIL LOA.

You are sure of this? Please tell me how this is so? Maybe because you are looking at it from your viewpoint and that viewpoint would not sacrifice for someone else. I'll let you in on a little secret....it was the direct reason and how I know is I am one of them and I know the others. You don't know me or them and you don't know jack about servicemen in general from your previous posts. Your opinions on servicemen and women are insulting.

You have failed to bring up and adddress the issue! You spoke of reservist/guard guys that are not a MIL pension or healthplan (unless they are on active duty) and you spoke of guys who took a MIL LOA...

The issue, that you brought up, is that MIL people with pensions could give a crap about others in the airline industry. I brought that point up exactly. You may know 2 or 3 that feel this way but I can assure you most do not.

What you failed to address is the MIL guys (that have said this in my presence) that they really don't care about air line pay and benefits because thet already got that covered. Often these are guys that wanted to be MIL pilots or were NFO/WSOs and built CIV time over the years, retired then decided to "fullfill" a dream and go fly in the airlines. As I said, they deserve the bennies and should use them just as a spouse whose employer offers a better plan would....

Who gives a crap if they care about pay or benefits. They got it covered chief! Now if they work to undermine the pilot group then that is a different story. You know as well as I do, there are many a pilot who would stab his "brother" in the back to make an extra buck. I can just take a look at my airline. 110 guys on the street and greedy bastards flying to the max and picking up everything they can. I can assure you this is not a military problem.

Address the issue... guys who are indifferent because "they got theirs". It is a real slap in the face when you are trying to pay the house note, keep your family healthy and working to better your CBA. Is this all of the MIL guys? Nope. I never said it was... I said it was the guys who displayed the attitude of indifference. Same as a pilot who was on his/her spouse plan and had this indifference.

Why even bring up MIL guys then? It's because you have a big chip on your shoulder. You can't stand us. Admit it. We have multi-millionaire pilots and pilots with full pensions at Alaska flying over age 60 with guys on the street because they "like it." They don't care about pay or bennies at all. They got theirs. In fact, the top 1/3 of the list has "theirs." Are/were they mil? Not all of them. I am sure there are non-mil a$$wipes all over the system so why do you feel you have to single out MIL guys?

Nothing worse than managment telling your negotiators that you don't need a health plan because plenty of other guys don't care..... or the one they are offering is a POS.

This is your money point. I 100% agree with you. I have to disagree that the problem is mil guys with a pension. I know many mil guys who would give you the shirt of their backs. In general, we look out for one another. Sure there are bad apples but for you to take a swipe at us in general is poor form but not unexpected. So, while your last point was good, your post in general was an epic failure.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is your money point. I 100% agree with you. I have to disagree that the problem is mil guys with a pension. I know many mil guys who would give you the shirt of their backs. In general, we look out for one another. Sure there are bad apples but for you to take a swipe at us in general is poor form but not unexpected. So, while your last point was good, your post in general was an epic failure.

Let's be clear, AC tried to use my statements as anti MIL. Sorry it came from MIL guys. I never took it as representative as all MIL... but it came froom MIL guys.


So if your an an elected rep with DFR responsibilities and a pilot says "I got a pension and HC from my previous career" and you've been told by management that they're holding back on HC and 401k contributions because they've been told by pilots that they've got it or they can get it from their spouse.... (basically the Wal Mart race to the bottom effect)

What do you say to these pilots who express an indifference?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What I offer may not work, but what you offer hasn't worked, so where does that leave us?

What do you offer?

For example, I offer ALPA PAC and UP PAC. You've yet to state that you ever contributed. It is not the amount but the participation %. So, if you never have, then how can you say it has worked or not worked?

For example, recently ALPA got a win because airlines could not consider duty time towards FMLA. ALPA changed that not only for ALPA pilots but all flight crews, including jb and skywest. Is that ok? Or does ALPA still not work?

ALPA's solutions continue to be the same as they have been for the last 30 years as if nothing has changed regarding labor and bankruptcy laws.

This is not true.

What does any solution or suggestion I or anyone else offers when supposed leadership like you and Rez have failed to admit there is even a problem solely out of fear it may make us look bad.

Again not true. First you've failed to offer any solution or suggestion. But it goes further than that... you have to offer a solution and a pragmatic methodology in implementation.

There are dozens of other posters through the years who have tried to discuss problems, we can't all be haters.

Look, I'll make it easy for you. Instead of coming up with a problem AND a workable solution, just identify a problem that you think ALPA has and should address.....

 

[Mamma]

Let's be clear, AC tried to use my statements as anti MIL. Sorry it came from MIL guys. I never took it as representative as all MIL... but it came froom MIL guys.

Why don't we just drop this trivial crap. On another note, my co-pilot just Googled "Downs Syndrome Porn" and I am appalled with him. Even more appalling was that there are tons of links for this kind of porn. What is wrong with people?.


So if your an an elected rep with DFR responsibilities and a pilot says "I got a pension and HC from my previous career" and you've been told by management that they're holding back on HC and 401k contributions because they've been told by pilots that they've got it or they can get it from their spouse.... (basically the Wal Mart race to the bottom effect)

What do you say to these pilots who express an indifference?

This is easy. What do you say to pilots who stab each other in the back? What do you say to pilots who sell out the next generation to get theirs? What do you say about apathy in regards to ALPA and ALPA-PAC? You tell them all to get fu(ked and educate them on why they are complete and utter morons. If that does not work, you break their legs and burn down their house.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why don't we just drop this trivial crap. On another note, my co-pilot just Googled "Downs Syndrome Porn" and I am appalled with him. Even more appalling was that there are tons of links for this kind of porn. What is wrong with people?.

Not trival when you are working on a CBA and you've got gaps in your unity.

This is easy. What do you say to pilots who stab each other in the back? What do you say to pilots who sell out the next generation to get theirs? What do you say about apathy in regards to ALPA and ALPA-PAC? You tell them all to get fu(ked and educate them on why they are complete and utter morons. If that does not work, you break their legs and burn down their house.

Naw, you just work with these guys as best you can.... but getting wrapped around the axle like AC doesn't help matters... it de-unifies.

 

[Mamma]

Not trival when you are working on a CBA and you've got gaps in your unity.

Rez, your post regarding the behavior of MIL guys that have a pension was ill-conceived and far from reflective of the group as a whole. Thus, it was trivial and dividing. I was trying to let you off the hook. Wink. Wink.

Naw, you just work with these guys as best you can.... but getting wrapped around the axle like AC doesn't help matters... it de-unifies.

Yeah, you can do that too. But you did ask for solutions and I gave you a couple. I hope you don't think the intent of your original post on this subject was unifying. It was not.