If/When Spirit Strikes

[pilotyip]

Hi

I just want to make sure I can still post. I was recently warned about calling someone out as a strike breaker and picket line crosser. I also named this person. My bad.

what are you doing here? second MD-80 on the ramp, big things coming

 

[Mike man]

Srtikes are not one size fits all. I believe in Spirit's case it would be a mistake

I think it will be the mistake of the management to let it get that far...especially since the previous negotiating committee had all but one section ready for a TA, oddly enough it wasn't pay it was pref bidding.

 

[AirCobra]

AC, with that last post, I think it's pretty clear that you've lost this debate and are flailing wildly, hurling insults in a vain attempt to mask your failure. I see no point in continuing this exercise unless you decide to change your tone and actually start debating the issues.

PCL,
Here are United's IAM contracts. Your basic ramp lead with no additional skills and no overtime is making over $20.00 an hour. That means a 40 hour per week Ramp Lead makes at least $3200 a month. Their base pay alone puts them on par with a regional FO. Continental's $31 an hour with a 72 hour guarantee puts monthly pay at $2232. This is just for a ramp lead. Take a look at the contract for Technical Instructors, you know the guys that give those supposedly five minute classes Mike is talking about. Some are pulling in over $5,000 a month.

http://www.locallodge141.com/airlines/united airlines/ual.html

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

PCL,
Here are United's IAM contracts. Your basic ramp lead with no additional skills and no overtime is making over $20.00 an hour. That means a 40 hour per week Ramp Lead makes at least $3200 a month. Their base pay alone puts them on par with a regional FO. Continental's $31 an hour with a 72 hour guarantee puts monthly pay at $2232. This is just for a ramp lead. Take a look at the contract for Technical Instructors, you know the guys that give those supposedly five minute classes Mike is talking about. Some are pulling in over $5,000 a month.

http://www.locallodge141.com/airlines/united airlines/ual.html

Why do you think what is best for ARW is best for Spirit? Why does one size fit all?

And what is your radical change at ALPA idea?

 

[PCL_128]

PCL,
Here are United's IAM contracts. Your basic ramp lead with no additional skills and no overtime is making over $20.00 an hour. That means a 40 hour per week Ramp Lead makes at least $3200 a month. Their base pay alone puts them on par with a regional FO.

Your story is changing! (big surprise) We were comparing apples to apples, not apples to frisbees. It was a legacy to legacy comparison, or regional to regional comparison. How much is the regional ramper making compared to the regional FO? Most regionals are paying their rampers something in the $6/hr range, $10/hr if you're senior.

Continental's $31 an hour with a 72 hour guarantee puts monthly pay at $2232.

First of all, there are no 1st year pilots at any of the legacies right now. A junior FO at a legacy has at least 2-3 years longevity. Second, probationary pay isn't relevant anyway. We never bother to expend negotiating capital on first year pay.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

AC, respectfully, are you starting to realize why guys with your modus operandi are a hindrance to ALPA work? Guys who volunteer their time away from their families to get things done really don't have the tolerance or patience for your type.

Your methods are obstructionist. In a democratic environment, no one gets everything they want. But you can get something and something is better than nothing. ALPA for years has dealt with guys who refuse to self reflect and insist that ALPA is the problem. But they can't quantify those problems and if they do the problems and solutions are so unrealistic. Your performance on this thread is prime. ALPA volunteers can worry about the haters or just press on and try and get something accomplished. ALPA is damn if it does/doesn't with guys like you......

 

[Lear70]

You know, I was going to actually debate some more items, but after coming back today and reading that AirCobra thinks that ramp and CSR workers are "highly" skilled... I'm just done.

Good luck with your career. I will, again, state that if everyone else thinks you're way off base, that an examination of your stance is in order.

Fly safe

(unsubscribed from thread)

 

[hmmm]

Amazing to see you still at it R

 

[enigma]

I think it will be the mistake of the management to let it get that far...especially since the previous negotiating committee had all but one section ready for a TA, oddly enough it wasn't pay it was pref bidding.

That is correct. But let's be more specific.

The previous negotiating committee HAD TA's (signed by both parties) in all sections except pay, duration and scheduling. We had a handshake on PB with the VP Ops, but were never able to get it put down on paper. (the words they put on paper didn't match the verbal) Until Spirit was able to put the verbal agreement on paper, there was NOT going to be any PB agreement.

The verbal agreement was: ALPA got to choose the PB system provider, ALPA participated in - equally - pairing generation, ALPA PB committee members ran the line building process, Spirit would give ALPA pay loss credit for at least 8 days per month for PB committee FPL, and finally - the 4 day off guarantee must remain for pilots who choose that option. (this virtually guaranteed the same 6on/4off crap that we have now, but at least you would have your four days off. Bill R made that promise to every recurrent for almost a year and to every pilot who he had a chance to speak to regarding PB)

But remember, all of that took place before the economic crash leading in the fall of 2008. We are not in the same position as we were then, and that makes it far harder for our negotiators to achieve a deal on par with the one that never saw the light of day. If we had it to do over again, I suspect both nego comms and both MEC's would do things somewhat differently. The first would have made a deal when times were good and the second would have kept more of what was passed down to them instead of doing a dramatic withdrawal from signed sections.

 

[Mike man]

We had a handshake on PB with the VP Ops, but were never able to get it put down on paper. (the words they put on paper didn't match the verbal) Until Spirit was able to put the verbal agreement on paper, there was NOT going to be any PB agreement.

False. The only hold up was pref bidding, they even had two vendors picked and were using the two in practice bidding.

Take a look at the contract for Technical Instructors, you know the guys that give those supposedly five minute classes Mike is talking about.

So there are, what like 10-15 Technical Instructors are at UAL? That is a good point you make. If you would continue to read other contracts, specifically the one covering the general ramp workers, gate agents and so on you will find that they start around $10.00/hr and top out right at $20.00/hr.

But you make a good point.

 

[:-)]

False. The only hold up was pref bidding, they even had two vendors picked and were using the two in practice bidding.

you do know that enigma was the MEC at the time don't you? He and Bill W are only ones left at Spirit from that time, if anyone knows enigma knows.

 

[AirCobra]

Your story is changing! (big surprise) We were comparing apples to apples, not apples to frisbees. It was a legacy to legacy comparison, or regional to regional comparison. How much is the regional ramper making compared to the regional FO? Most regionals are paying their rampers something in the $6/hr range, $10/hr if you're senior.

PCL I just posted the contracts, did you look at them? BTW the orignial comparison was a senior legacy ramper gets paid what a junior legacy FO does, so what I said still stands.

First of all, there are no 1st year pilots at any of the legacies right now. A junior FO at a legacy has at least 2-3 years longevity. Second, probationary pay isn't relevant anyway. We never bother to expend negotiating capital on first year pay.
Well I think that is a problem. United struck over B scale in the 90's. So we have just given up on first year pay, is that what you are telling me?

 

[AirCobra]

False. The only hold up was pref bidding, they even had two vendors picked and were using the two in practice bidding.



So there are, what like 10-15 Technical Instructors are at UAL? That is a good point you make. If you would continue to read other contracts, specifically the one covering the general ramp workers, gate agents and so on you will find that they start around $10.00/hr and top out right at $20.00/hr.

But you make a good point.

Mike I was talking about senior rampers you know the guys that load the plane so it doesn't crash. They don't sit reserve, they don't get paid only a minimum guarantee if they don't fly, and they have plenty of opportunity for overtime. There is no need to diminish another labor group. The attitudes expressed here would never be spoken to a ramper so I think some people here are being arrogant a-holes because they can do so anonymously. BTW according to United website initial training takes 3 weeks, not 15 minutes.

 

[AirCobra]

AC, respectfully, are you starting to realize why guys with your modus operandi are a hindrance to ALPA work? Guys who volunteer their time away from their families to get things done really don't have the tolerance or patience for your type.

Your methods are obstructionist. In a democratic environment, no one gets everything they want. But you can get something and something is better than nothing. ALPA for years has dealt with guys who refuse to self reflect and insist that ALPA is the problem. But they can't quantify those problems and if they do the problems and solutions are so unrealistic. Your performance on this thread is prime. ALPA volunteers can worry about the haters or just press on and try and get something accomplished. ALPA is damn if it does/doesn't with guys like you......

A lot of ALPA people have told you and PCL they don't have patience for your type either. They take their time and go to meetings and express concerns and are jeered, mocked, and insulted by ALPA cheerleaders. Many have lost patience and are tired of running up against the same stone wall so they drop out. You always criticize people for a lack of unity, but its only your kind of unity. Getting involved to you has come to mean-listen to me and agree, or I question everything from your professionalism to your humanity.

You keep bringing up how I am outnumbered here. That is the very reason I posted links to all those other threads and named at least a half a dozen other posters who got tired of the same old same old and the insults and decided not to even discuss things with you or PCL anymore. Let me refresh your memeory:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=115683

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=120405

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=109433

So you are just playing a dumb game because if you want me to bring up something like that Fed Ex thread and then start counting how many people are against you, and how you are outnumbered, I can do that. Rez if we take votes you are outnumbered on virtually every thread and regularly told to buzz off, so lets not start counting votes.

How many more people are you going to brand as haters before you look around the room and find only a handful of people left because you have alienated them all?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

[Well I think that is a problem. United struck over B scale in the 90's. So we have just given up on first year pay, is that what you are telling me?

United pilots did what? When?

 

[AirCobra]

Why do you think what is best for ARW is best for Spirit? Why does one size fit all?
I think Capt. Joe Ellis said it best.

Air Wisconsin employees represented by ALPA, the IAM, and the CWA met in Milwaukee in late Jan. to launch a labor coalition at the airline. The coalition is designed to communication among the employees groups, develop a common bargaining strategy, and eliminate the threat of management pitting employee groups against each other. "It's time we stand together as employees of Air Wisconsin-not alone as pilots, mechanics, dispatchers, and flight attendants of Air Wisconsin" says Capt. Joe Ellis, the pilots' MEC.

I also don't think Spirit is in good enough financial shape to handle a strike or even strike talk without resorting paycuts, furloughs and a possible bankruptcy filing. There seems to be a general lack of knowledge about Oaktree and what they are planning to do. I imagine a strike will also be used by management to pit other employee groups at Spirit against the pilots, so maybe the AW situation is similar in this respect.


And what is your radical change at ALPA idea?
See above plus guys like you lose the ALPA can do no wrong attitude, and treat differing opinions with respect. Oh yeah and don't accuse people of stuff they didn't do. Oh yeah, and have the decency not to come on anonymous websites and make false accusations because "it isn't a job site"

 

[hmmm]

And I do have to say since I was the one who counted the ballots that a particular person in this discussion (who knows who I am talking about) that you and your butt buddy were the only ones in the room for and who had applied for that particular union posting when you were voted in (and you knew it) so it pains me to have always watched you strut around like a periah.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

A lot of ALPA people have told you and PCL they don't have patience for your type either.

Yet PCL gets things done and gets reelected.

They take their time and go to meetings and express concerns and are jeered, mocked, and insulted by ALPA cheerleaders. Many have lost patience and are tired of running up against the same stone wall so they drop out.

ALPA can do a better job helping the well intentioned but poorly skilled. Point is, those who are current on ALPA affairs on pretty savvy politically. If someone shows up, like you have on this board, they are going to get crushed. Sorry, that is politics.

You always criticize people for a lack of unity, but its only your kind of unity. Getting involved to you has come to mean-listen to me and agree, or I question everything from your professionalism to your humanity.

Playing the humanity card again?

So what is it? Guys like you should show up with criticism and poorly thought out ideas and solutions and ALPA guys are supposed to waste time going thru the motions so you can see it fail? Why?

You keep bringing up how I am outnumbered here. That is the very reason I posted links to all those other threads and named at least a half a dozen other posters who got tired of the same old same old and the insults and decided not to even discuss things with you or PCL anymore. Let me refresh your memeory:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=115683

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=120405

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=109433

I told you it creeps me out when you are so interested in my post.

So you are just playing a dumb game because if you want me to bring up something like that Fed Ex thread and then start counting how many people are against you, and how you are outnumbered, I can do that.

Can you? Can you count?

Rez if we take votes you are outnumbered on virtually every thread and regularly told to buzz off, so lets not start counting votes.

You just you can count. Now you don't want to?

How many more people are you going to brand as haters before you look around the room and find only a handful of people left because you have alienated them all?

So what do you suggest when someone shows up with a "great" idea that has already been thru the ringer, no one likes it, no supports it? Should ALPA waste its time, time and time again, to placate bad ideas?

As I said either you have the skillset to bring forth a good idea and get others to work towards implementation.... or you don't. Do you think you do?

 

[AirCobra]

United pilots did what? When?

Sorry the 80's. All the decades blend together when you are my age. Here is an old time magazine article on the strike. You were probably in high school:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,957039,00.html

I bring it up as a big deal because starting pay was the major reason guys hired in the months preceding 9/11 did not come back during the first recall. The offer was to return at the pay level you were hired at, not taking into to account you had been on furlough and technically with the company for around five years. This is a screw job either way but if first year pay had not been low more people would have returned. Who would have imagined people would stay at a regional or stay on furlough rather than accept recall from a major. So I strongly disagree that starting pay does not matter and something that happened in 1985 still has implications today.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why do you think what is best for ARW is best for Spirit? Why does one size fit all?
I think Capt. Joe Ellis said it best.

Air Wisconsin employees represented by ALPA, the IAM, and the CWA met in Milwaukee in late Jan. to launch a labor coalition at the airline. The coalition is designed to communication among the employees groups, develop a common bargaining strategy, and eliminate the threat of management pitting employee groups against each other. "It's time we stand together as employees of Air Wisconsin-not alone as pilots, mechanics, dispatchers, and flight attendants of Air Wisconsin" says Capt. Joe Ellis, the pilots' MEC.

To quote for favortie patriarch Dick C. "So". ARW is not spirit.

I also don't think Spirit is in good enough financial shape to handle a strike or even strike talk without resorting paycuts, furloughs and a possible bankruptcy filing.

How do you know this? Do you have a business background? Economic? Have you signed a CA to look at Spirits books?

There seems to be a general lack of knowledge about Oaktree and what they are planning to do.

Then tell us. Kill me if you have to. (Like when Maverick said "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you") But if you know, then you can tell the general popluation.

I imagine a strike will also be used by management to pit other employee groups at Spirit against the pilots, so maybe the AW situation is similar in this respect.

You can imagine all you want. Why are you smarter than ALPA E&FA, ALPA Legal, the Spirit MEC who have total SA (not you), and others on the thread?

And what is your radical change at ALPA idea?
See above plus guys like you lose the ALPA can do no wrong attitude, and treat differing opinions with respect. Oh yeah and don't accuse people of stuff they didn't do. Oh yeah, and have the decency not to come on anonymous websites and make false accusations because "it isn't a job site"

This is your "radical idea?"