If/When Spirit Strikes

[AirCobra]

Major logical fail!
The point isn't choices made or coulda/shoulda/woulda... any career path
The point of this whole thread is pilots who don't have much but are willing to bust ass and put it on the line to make it better for themselves and their families....

That is not what you told that Fed Ex guy, you told him if he didn't like it then leave. Maybe you should change your screenname to Harvey Dent.

Originally Posted by Rez O. Lewshun
You seem to have trouble grasping the concept of choice and free will.

No one forced you to accept employment at FX. and through all the changes at FX, (Flying Tigers, ALPA, FPA, ALPA) no one forced you to stay.

Yet, you seem to have issues with others...for the choices you made.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, I doubt I am alone on this, but the major logical failure is with you. The point of this thread is exactly what you said above. Your failure lies in your disdain of the military and blatantly stereotyping us as selfish bastards just out for ourselves. Nobody else has faults...just the Mil guys. Thanks. We all appreciate that. I see you made a bunch of friends over on the mil board tonight by labeling them blood thirsty child killers. We appreciate that too. I tried to reason with you knowing I would fail to get through but I tried. Have a nice evening.

Not really. We all have faults, but it seems the MIL guys can't talk about their own faults. Seriously... go to the MIL section of this board.... any criticism is met with a harsh backlash... That is probably my issue...

Recall the F18 that crashed at Miramar and wiped out a mans family. The jet should have landed at N. Island, approaching over the water. But the rabid defense spoke volumes.

Same with the two CIV aircraft in the MOA. MIL pilot gets scolded, but the adamant, illogical defense of his actions and the fault was all on the CIV pilots was amazing...

It is not representative of all MIL guys... there are tools in every organization.... right? So lets call the tools out for who they are.....

I support the MIL guys in ALPA work and have sent packages to guys deployed....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What happened to your ungraceful bowing out of this thread... your.......ego........ just....



won't......




let.....



it....







go.

Rez are you two different people writing the same post? You realize your first paragraph negates your second. If there is always going to be someone willing to do my job cheaper, then what point is there to standing up for yourself when someone will always come along and undercut me?

No, my two paragraph describe you quite well....

You are the guy that adores the free market, but doesn't do anything as a UAL pilot to make the place better.... then your market forces furlough you... and you cut and run.....

We already went through this a few months ago, I get "Rez's Rules". When you undercut me I deserved it, that is how free markets work. Now when someone undercuts you its an outrage and its my fault for not standing behind you.

Naw, it just your fault for not defending the profession. You did nothing at UAL, except violate the IAM contract. How embarrassing...

I don't know what the point of talking to you is anyway.

Then why do you do it? You said you were bowing out last week. That you were done, yet here you are setting 'em up so I can knock 'em down. On other threads you offer no logic just labeling, ranting, pouting and tantrums. Don't go away confused... just go away...

How can anyone who contends retired military pilots are responsible for driving down pilot wages

Not at all, just guys like you who don't fight for the profession, to make the place better. I know lots of MIL guys that realize duty, honor, country doesn't apply in the "free market". Once they realize that corporations don't have a 'duty, honor, country' creed like they do, and that mgmnt uses that creed against them, they work hard to defend the profession. But not you. Your creed to mgmnt is "thank you sir, may I have another"

while they themselves are flying mainline routes in an RJ for half the money can be taken seriously.

Didn't you and your mainline pilots give this flying away? What are you ding to get it back. I can assure you I am working to fix it. In addition, I know if I am ever a UAL pilot, I'll know exactly what example not to follow.

There are some new threads popping up on the scope issue due to an article. Like another poster told you... you've much to learn.

You said you'd bow out, yet you keep coming back to get knocked down and out........... I am sure you're be back for more......:laugh:

 

[Mamma]

Not really. We all have faults, but it seems the MIL guys can't talk about their own faults. Seriously... go to the MIL section of this board.... any criticism is met with a harsh backlash... That is probably my issue...

Recall the F18 that crashed at Miramar and wiped out a mans family. The jet should have landed at N. Island, approaching over the water. But the rabid defense spoke volumes.

Same with the two CIV aircraft in the MOA. MIL pilot gets scolded, but the adamant, illogical defense of his actions and the fault was all on the CIV pilots was amazing...

It is not representative of all MIL guys... there are tools in every organization.... right? So lets call the tools out for who they are.....

I support the MIL guys in ALPA work and have sent packages to guys


deployed....

So after all this it has come to light that we actually agree. There are tools everywhere and we will call them out.

 

[Mike man]

So back to a Spirit thread...here are the last 4 quarters of financial reports from the BTS:

...........Operating......Operating......Operating........NET
............Revenue...... Expenses.....Profit/(loss)....INCOME
2008Q4 176,875,000 155,676,000 21,199,000....11,094,000

2009Q1 169,879,000 141,110,000 28,769,000....16,919,000

2009Q2 179,094,000 148,055,000 31,039,000....19,355,000

2009Q3 178,345,000 152,292,000 26,053,000....14,067,000

 

[Mike man]

Update March 12, 2010

The National Mediation Board informed ALPA that it had arranged two days of negotiations to take place on April 6 and 7. NMB member, Linda Puchala, will be participating in mediating these talks personally.

After these talks, the NMB has the authority to declare an impasse and offer binding arbitration before releasing the pilot group and the company to self-help.

...message truncated[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

Linda Puchala

Nominated by President Barack Obama, Ms. Linda A. Puchala was confirmed as Member of the National Mediation Board by the United States Senate on May 21, 2009. She was sworn in on May 26, 2009, completing the term of her predecessor as Chairman through June 30, 2009. Ms. Puchala’s current term as Member runs through June 30, 2012.

Prior to becoming a Member, Ms. Puchala served as the Sr. Mediator (ADR) and the Associate Director of Alternative Dispute Resolution Services of the National Mediation Board. She joined the agency in May, 1999, as a Mediator working on both airline and railroad cases.

Member Puchala has 40 years of experience in Labor Relations, including work as International President of the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA, AFL-CIO, and Staff Director, Michigan State Employees Association, AFSCME, AFL-CIO.
[FONT=&quot]
http://www.nmb.gov/directory/puchala-bio.html
[/FONT]

 

[whymeworry?]

I see standard FI answers, insults, name calling, etc, but how come no one answered the questions? Why do I get calls from Spirit pilots asking about hiring plans at JUS? In the end the consumer determines what the pilots will get paid, not management, not unions, not the gov't. BTW If all the pilot grew balls, would that require single gender operations?

Yer joking, right? 12000 hrs and this is how you think the airline business works?

 

[Lear70]

Yer joking, right? 12000 hrs and this is how you think the airline business works?

He has for years... we've had this conversation ad nauseum here on the boards.

He doesn't quite GET that what the PASSENGERS determine is how much GROSS revenue an airline makes from operations, based on how much they're willing to pay for a ticket.

Passengers don't then decide what we get of that; that's between us and management. If management doesn't think they can be profitable with what the pilots want, they either shut down the airline over it when a strike comes or they allow it, knowing they will have to eventually file bankruptcy and can re-negotiate the contracts then.

Pilots simply bear the responsibility of pricing their services reasonably in negotiations, based on the market and how profitable that airline is. That's where ALPA EF&A comes in. They have, more than once, told MEC's that they cannot get what they want with the company's financials the way they are. On the other hand, when ALPA says that the demands are reasonable compared to the company's financials, then it's up to the pilots to draw that line in the sand.

The flying public has nothing to do with it, but YIP seems to think that ticket pricing translates directly to pilot salaries - it doesn't, except that an airline has to be profitable to demand increases. I think Spirit has demonstrated that quite well...

YMMV

 

[pilotyip]

but YIP seems to think that ticket pricing translates directly to pilot salaries - it doesn't, except that an airline has to be profitable to demand increases. I think Spirit has demonstrated that quite well...YMMV

No he doesn't think that, but you have to admit that consumer demand will effect how much you can charge for a seat in a competitive market. Like you said if the salary demands are too high the costs can not be passed along to the consumer. Also management will then make decision to try it or fold. Which is now this tread started. Also remember if the pilots get more money than every other employee group in the airline will feel they also need to have a raise. This compounds the cost effect of giving any raises.

 

[waveflyer]

What should pilots be paid YIP? Throw out some numbers...

I agree with the joker -' if you're good at something never do it for free'

 

[pilotyip]

lots

What should pilots be paid YIP? Throw out some numbers...

I agree with the joker -' if you're good at something never do it for free'

pilots should make $400k/yr, you just have to find someone that can stay is business at that level. BTW I am good at flying also and I do it for free to support a non-profit. Being good at flying an airplane is something almsot anyone can do with a certain level of skill and desire. Do not take yourself too seriously because you are close to the top of the pile.

 

[Lear70]

Also remember if the pilots get more money than every other employee group in the airline will feel they also need to have a raise.

Pilots will always make more than any other employee group except management.

This is to be expected. The only workers as skilled as we are, arguably, are the mechanics, and they don't have to be gone from their families half the month. We get compensated additionally for that sacrifice. So no, I don't buy into the "The pilots get paid more than us, we should demand more" train of thought. NO employee group, as a whole, feels that way. Flight attendants, rampers, CSR agents, gate agents, office workers, none of them expect to make more than we do, that's ridiculous.

Being good at flying an airplane is something almsot anyone can do with a certain level of skill and desire. Do not take yourself too seriously because you are close to the top of the pile.

I strongly disagree with this assertion, also.

I've flown with WAY too many F/O's who will NEVER upgrade and have NO business being in this industry, but got here because it's their second career or mommy and daddy had enough money to get them through the flight schools that were, arguably, PAID to get them to a passing level.

Once they have to fend for themselves in the real world, they never go anywhere. At least half of the pilots who never make it out of the regionals or the 121/135 freight operators should never have been there to begin with.

Your argument is like trying to say that anyone can be an attorney or doctor with enough desire and persistence. I know I certainly *COULD*, but would I be any *GOOD* at it? probably not. Same goes for flying: some people just don't have any business being here.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Pilots will always make more than any other employee group except management. .

And the only reason why is becasue managment controls the coffers... the actual revenue that is ultimately generated when pilots safely land at the destination.....

It is not that management actually earns the amount of money they pay themselves...!!!

 

[AirCobra]

... yet here you are setting 'em up so I can knock 'em down.

Great analogy Rez! You are like a bowling ball; dense, hard headed, and you like to roll around in the gutter.

 

[AirCobra]

Pilots will always make more than any other employee group except management.

This is to be expected. The only workers as skilled as we are, arguably, are the mechanics, and they don't have to be gone from their families half the month. We get compensated additionally for that sacrifice. So no, I don't buy into the "The pilots get paid more than us, we should demand more" train of thought. NO employee group, as a whole, feels that way. Flight attendants, rampers, CSR agents, gate agents, office workers, none of them expect to make more than we do, that's ridiculous.

Where do you work? Rampers, mechanics, and office workers make more than pilots all over the airline industry. Probably the only reason CSR's don't make more than pilots is because most of their work has been outsourced to aviation service companies. These kind of comments create disunity. For example any CS could talk about the liability they incurr when operaing the jetway, or ramper could talk about the amount of liability they incurr when pushing back an aircraft or insuring aircraft are loaded properly and the cargo doors are secure. Could you just walk onto the ramp and load palletized cargo into a 747? These people are highly skilled, they just have a different skill set.

 

[PCL_128]

Also remember if the pilots get more money than every other employee group in the airline will feel they also need to have a raise. This compounds the cost effect of giving any raises.

This is typical management propaganda that only the slow and dimwitted will believe. There isn't a union in existence that makes its arguments for pay raises based on what some other craft and class is getting paid. Arguments are always made based on what peers are making at other carriers.

 

[Mike man]

Where do you work? Rampers, mechanics, and office workers make more than pilots all over the airline industry. Probably the only reason CSR's don't make more than pilots is because most of their work has been outsourced to aviation service companies. These kind of comments create disunity. For example any CS could talk about the liability they incurr when operaing the jetway, or ramper could talk about the amount of liability they incurr when pushing back an aircraft or insuring aircraft are loaded properly and the cargo doors are secure. Could you just walk onto the ramp and load palletized cargo into a 747? These people are highly skilled, they just have a different skill set.

Time to get back on the meds AirCobra...ramp workers and gate agents...highly skilled???

Ramp worker incurring liability when they push an airplane back? Are you serious?

Other than their $6.50 an hour job what liability do they have? The airline does not come after them to repay the damages if they hit a baggage cart. The fire them if they hit a cart...have you ever actually been to an airport?

Now I will admit that a gate agent does posses one very specialized skill, and it is ignoring people when they stand at their counter for five minutes while the agent looks apparently busy with nothing for ten minutes and if the PAX (or crew member) is still there then they just might help in their feeble minded way that only a gate agent can muster.

Back a few years ago there were plenty of rampers and gate agents making more than pilots. But these were the agents who had worked for US Air for 40 years and were making 100K/year. Those days are long gone.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Great analogy Rez! You are like a bowling ball; dense, hard headed, and you like to roll around in the gutter.

How about baseball.... you've struck out more times on this thread. You refuse to attend batting practice, and somehow find the arrogance to keep stepping into the batters box without yielding a better result.

The Monkey Jar: A small jar is placed at the base of a tree with nuts or other items which may attract the monkey’s curiosity.
The opening of the jar allows the monkey to place his hand in, but when he tries to withdraw it, he is unable to do so without letting go of the contents of the jar. Believe it or not, some monkeys will stay there with their hand in the jar until the hunter comes back to trap them! They are trapped because they are unwilling to let go of something they are doing which is working against them.
​

Your ego is the food. You just can't let it go... so you've trapped yourself on this thread.... constantly holding onto your ego.


If you want to talk issues let's do that... I am still waiting for you to discuss the leverage and coercion created from a labor alliance within a company. Also, I am waiting for you to discuss radical change at ALPA. What that is and how it gets done.


Or you can keep sniping with personal attacks...

 

[AirCobra]

Time to get back on the meds AirCobra...ramp workers and gate agents...highly skilled???

Ramp worker incurring liability when they push an airplane back? Are you serious?

Other than their $6.50 an hour job what liability do they have? The airline does not come after them to repay the damages if they hit a baggage cart. The fire them if they hit a cart...have you ever actually been to an airport?

Now I will admit that a gate agent does posses one very specialized skill, and it is ignoring people when they stand at their counter for five minutes while the agent looks apparently busy with nothing for ten minutes and if the PAX (or crew member) is still there then they just might help in their feeble minded way that only a gate agent can muster.

Back a few years ago there were plenty of rampers and gate agents making more than pilots. But these were the agents who had worked for US Air for 40 years and were making 100K/year. Those days are long gone.

Mike this is a really a terrible post. Ramp workers don't get $6.50 an hour, they get upwards of $20.00 an hour. Many or trained and licensed to operate heavy equipment and are paid for their skill. They can cause millions in damages, and an improperly loaded aircraft or an improperly secured cargo door could cause an aircraft to crash. Saying they are unskilled diminishes their profession and their professionalism. The are mostly union employees you know so they are not just summarily fired as you seem to think. They are screened and trained by the airline, while others are hired for skills they received on their own, such as heavy equipment operators, and most are part of the IAM. Next time you are at the airport go to a gate where they are loading a 747 then tell me it takes no skill and those guys incur no liability. Don't be an another arrogant pilot, we have enough of those in our profession as it is.

 

[AirCobra]

How about baseball.... you've struck out more times on this thread. You refuse to attend batting practice, and somehow find the arrogance to keep stepping into the batters box without yielding a better result.


Your ego is the food. You just can't let it go... so you've trapped yourself on this thread.... constantly holding onto your ego.


If you want to talk issues let's do that... I am still waiting for you to discuss the leverage and coercion created from a labor alliance within a company. Also, I am waiting for you to discuss radical change at ALPA. What that is and how it gets done.


Or you can keep sniping with personal attacks...

Okay then comment on Mike or Lear's post. Do you think your fellow union workers are just a bunch unskilled rubes and meaningless to the airline compared to us Supermen pilots?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Okay then comment on Mike or Lear's post. Do you think your fellow union workers are just a bunch unskilled rubes and meaningless to the airline compared to us Supermen pilots?

I am still waiting for you to discuss the leverage and coercion created from a labor alliance within a company verses a job action. Also, I am waiting for you to discuss radical change at ALPA. What that is and how it gets done.

 

[PCL_128]

Do you think your fellow union workers are just a bunch unskilled rubes and meaningless to the airline compared to us Supermen pilots?

I think the truth is somewhere in between. They are far from "highly skilled," as anyone can be trained to do that work in a relatively short period of time, unlike a position such as a pilot or mechanic, which require a great deal of training and experience. However, to say that they are "just a bunch of unskilled rubes" is also absurd, as they are obviously skilled and valuable to the business. But to compare them to pilots is asinine.

Also, your assertion that they make more than the pilots is just plain wrong. Does a ramper at the top of the longevity scale a legacy carrier make more than a regional FO? In some limited cases, yes. But does a regional ramper make more than a regional FO, or does a legacy ramper make more than a legacy FO? Of course not. You're comparing apples to donuts. As always with the radical right and the union haters, you're throwing out a bunch of red herrings.

 

[PCL_128]

I am still waiting for you to discuss the leverage and coercion created from a labor alliance within a company verses a job action. Also, I am waiting for you to discuss radical change at ALPA. What that is and how it gets done.

I think you'll be waiting a very long time. He has nothing constructive to contribute.

 

[AirCobra]

I am still waiting for you to discuss the leverage and coercion created from a labor alliance within a company verses a job action. Also, I am waiting for you to discuss radical change at ALPA. What that is and how it gets done.

Since my opinion is meaningless then focus on why Air Wisconsin's MEC is doing at least partly what I suggested.

Give me your analysis of the last three strikes (United, Northwest, Comair), where are those airlines now?

Why are you saying job actions are effective and then saying its all meaningless because someone will always come along and undercut you? You are schizophrenic.

 

[pilotyip]

missed the point

I strongly disagree with this assertion, also. I've flown with WAY too many F/O's who will NEVER upgrade and have NO business being in this industry, but got here because it's their second career or mommy and daddy had enough money to get them through the flight schools that were, arguably, PAID to get them to a passing level.O.

Remember I said skill and desire. Maybe they don't have both, did not have had the skill to be good, they should not be in the business. BTW Who gets hires also has little to do with skill and desire, it about the "luck" of being in the right place at the right time.

 

[AirCobra]

I think the truth is somewhere in between. They are far from "highly skilled," as anyone can be trained to do that work in a relatively short period of time, unlike a position such as a pilot or mechanic, which require a great deal of training and experience. However, to say that they are "just a bunch of unskilled rubes" is also absurd, as they are obviously skilled and valuable to the business. But to compare them to pilots is asinine.

Also, your assertion that they make more than the pilots is just plain wrong. Does a ramper at the top of the longevity scale a legacy carrier make more than a regional FO? In some limited cases, yes. But does a regional ramper make more than a regional FO, or does a legacy ramper make more than a legacy FO? Of course not. You're comparing apples to donuts. As always with the radical right and the union haters, you're throwing out a bunch of red herrings.

Yes a senior legacy ramper makes more than a junior legacy FO. Not to mention there are plenty of legacy FO's on furlough so they are making less than everybody who is actually working.

Please explain how asking somone not to diminsh the contributions and skill of other labor groups makes me a union hater? I did not throw out the red herring, re-read Mikes post. Do-nothing CSR's, unskilled $6.50 an hour rampers. Those are not my words.

 

[pilotyip]

Why?

This is typical management propaganda that only the slow and dimwitted will believe. There isn't a union in existence that makes its arguments for pay raises based on what some other craft and class is getting paid. Arguments are always made based on what peers are making at other carriers.

Why did ramp workers at UAL make $60K, why did reservations agents make $50K?

 

[AirCobra]

I think you'll be waiting a very long time. He has nothing constructive to contribute.

I asked you to comment on Air Wisconsin, since what they are doing was what i was suggesting . All I got was ALPA's been doing it a long time. Well why does it work or why doesn't it? Why will Air Wisconsin be different or not?

Watching you an Rez flailing around is sad. I have asked you twice and Rez three times about Air Wisconsin, neither of you will discuss it and then you ask me what are my suggestions. Well HELLO! My suggestion is what Air Wisconsin did. If you don't want to talk about my suggestion, why then do you keep asking me?

I think I know exactly what it is now. It's all personal. If you say what Air Wisconsin did was wrong or won't work, you are going against ALPA and AW's MEC, if you say Air Wisconsin is right and its a good plan, then that demonstrates there is merit in what I said and you would be agreeing with me, well we can't have that can we? It would make the two of you look bad.

So my points remain and they are the same for the last 20 posts: Unity in labor groups may be an avenue we want to explore further, the last three strikes weakened the airlines involved with them so I don't think we should continue down that road with Spirit, and the radical change is coming up with something other than more strikes. You have yet to provide any opinion on Air Wisconsin or evidence that the last three strikes made ALPA stronger. That is what I am waiting for. Stick your personal opinions about me up your @rse and just discuss the F'in topic if you want, but if you want to discuss Republicans, monkeys, bowling, and baseball, then who really has nothing constructive to offer?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Since my opinion is meaningless

I don't know if it is meaningless... you've refused to offer it.

then focus on why Air Wisconsin's MEC is doing at least partly what I suggested.

Got it... you refuse to back up your assertions and then tell me to opine on something you brought up. I am asking you to back up what you've said, not what I said.

Give me your analysis of the last three strikes (United, Northwest, Comair), where are those airlines now?

Again. I didn't bring up these strikes. You did.

Why are you saying job actions are effective and then saying its all meaningless because someone will always come along and undercut you? You are schizophrenic.

Back to the personal attacks. The undercutting is limited by a CBA. Something that you are fundamentally against as a free marketeer.

So again... you brought up that labor coalitions in house are more effective that a job action. I ask you to expand. You cannot. Strike 1.

I ask you to expand on what you brought up as needed.... a radical shift at ALPA and how. You cannot. Strike 2.

Then you proceed to bait me into engaging in topics that you bring up so you don't have to actually justify your misguided thoughts. Strike 3. You're out.

But again... you can't let go of the banana in the jar...... meaning.. you'll be back.... keep lofting in those underhand pitches and I'll keep hitting them out of the park.... your ego won't let you stop.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why did ramp workers at UAL make $60K, why did reservations agents make $50K?

Why did managment make millions when they should have 'stolen' 100,000s?