If/When Spirit Strikes

[PCL_128]

Aircobra, in all of this back and forth nonsense, you have still failed to point out even a single suggestion for how things should be changed. All you do is say that ALPA's ways don't work (I completely disagree, of course), but you offer no alternatives whatsoever. As Rez would say, that just makes you a "hater." Do you have anything constructive to add, or just more attacks?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

From Rez:

I am tired of MIL guys showing with with their pensions and health bennies and not giving a damm about their fellow pilots who are trying to make it better for them. The MIL guys deserve their bennies, but they also are expected to support their fellow pilots in an effort to gain a fair and reasonable contract for themselves and their family.

Rez, once again you swing for the bleachers and strike out. YGBFSM with this remark. I was enjoying the back and forth until you crammed your head up your a$$ and farted this gem out. I would venture to guess that a very large percentage of airline pilots have a military history and a very very large percentage of them are not collecting a pension or health bennies.

Then my comments would no apply to them.

You see, they got out or are reservists. I don't know of any military pilots who do not support their fellow pilots. In fact, I would venture to guess the majority of mil pilots support their fellow pilots because that is what we do...watch each other's back. In fact, I personally know of three pilots (there are more) at Alaska Airlines that are still working because mil pilots opted to go on orders to keep them on property. They opted to go fly to war instead of letting the company throw more pilots on the street.

Noble effort on their part. I am sure it was an acillary point in the decision process, but not reason they went on a MIL LOA.

We have engaged on the military issue in the past and you came up WAY short in your knowledge of the military and the people who serve. Maybe in the future you could just shut your pie-hole on this issue. Your conspiracy theories and anti-military blather are getting old.

Now back to the rant.....

You have failed to bring up and adddress the issue! You spoke of reservist/guard guys that are not a MIL pension or healthplan (unless they are on active duty) and you spoke of guys who took a MIL LOA...

What you failed to address is the MIL guys (that have said this in my presence) that they really don't care about air line pay and benefits because thet already got that covered. Often these are guys that wanted to be MIL pilots or were NFO/WSOs and built CIV time over the years, retired then decided to "fullfill" a dream and go fly in the airlines. As I said, they deserve the bennies and should use them just as a spouse whose employer offers a better plan would....

Address the issue... guys who are indifferent because "they got theirs". It is a real slap in the face when you are trying to pay the house note, keep your family healthy and working to better your CBA. Is this all of the MIL guys? Nope. I never said it was... I said it was the guys who displayed the attitude of indifference. Same as a pilot who was on his/her spouse plan and had this indifference.

Nothing worse than managment telling your negotiators that you don't need a health plan because plenty of other guys don't care..... or the one they are offering is a POS.

 

[AirCobra]

Aircobra, in all of this back and forth nonsense, you have still failed to point out even a single suggestion for how things should be changed. All you do is say that ALPA's ways don't work (I completely disagree, of course), but you offer no alternatives whatsoever. As Rez would say, that just makes you a "hater." Do you have anything constructive to add, or just more attacks?

PCL you were doing the same things right along with Rez on the old posts I looked at dealing with many of these issues . The insults, the "if you don't like it get lost" attitude. Calling anyone or everyone that says anything against ALPA a "hater" is hardly constructive. I pointed out things I thought would help, all you guys offered is the same old rhetoric and the same old solutions I have been hearing since I became an ALPA member 15 years ago. What I offer may not work, but what you offer hasn't worked, so where does that leave us? ALPA's solutions continue to be the same as they have been for the last 30 years as if nothing has changed regarding labor and bankruptcy laws. What does any solution or suggestion I or anyone else offers when supposed leadership like you and Rez have failed to admit there is even a problem solely out of fear it may make us look bad.

There are dozens of other posters through the years who have tried to discuss problems, we can't all be haters.

 

[PCL_128]

You've suggested nothing! You're only so-called suggestion is to "stop doing the same things." Well, if we're going to stop doing one thing, what do we do instead? You've offered nothing but attacks and the usual neo-con pro-corporate, anti-labor drivel.

 

[Mamma]

Then my comments would no apply to them.

Why even post something this stupid is my point. Sure there are MIL guys who feel this way but the VAST majority don't.


Noble effort on their part. I am sure it was an acillary point in the decision process, but not reason they went on a MIL LOA.

You are sure of this? Please tell me how this is so? Maybe because you are looking at it from your viewpoint and that viewpoint would not sacrifice for someone else. I'll let you in on a little secret....it was the direct reason and how I know is I am one of them and I know the others. You don't know me or them and you don't know jack about servicemen in general from your previous posts. Your opinions on servicemen and women are insulting.

You have failed to bring up and adddress the issue! You spoke of reservist/guard guys that are not a MIL pension or healthplan (unless they are on active duty) and you spoke of guys who took a MIL LOA...

The issue, that you brought up, is that MIL people with pensions could give a crap about others in the airline industry. I brought that point up exactly. You may know 2 or 3 that feel this way but I can assure you most do not.

What you failed to address is the MIL guys (that have said this in my presence) that they really don't care about air line pay and benefits because thet already got that covered. Often these are guys that wanted to be MIL pilots or were NFO/WSOs and built CIV time over the years, retired then decided to "fullfill" a dream and go fly in the airlines. As I said, they deserve the bennies and should use them just as a spouse whose employer offers a better plan would....

Who gives a crap if they care about pay or benefits. They got it covered chief! Now if they work to undermine the pilot group then that is a different story. You know as well as I do, there are many a pilot who would stab his "brother" in the back to make an extra buck. I can just take a look at my airline. 110 guys on the street and greedy bastards flying to the max and picking up everything they can. I can assure you this is not a military problem.

Address the issue... guys who are indifferent because "they got theirs". It is a real slap in the face when you are trying to pay the house note, keep your family healthy and working to better your CBA. Is this all of the MIL guys? Nope. I never said it was... I said it was the guys who displayed the attitude of indifference. Same as a pilot who was on his/her spouse plan and had this indifference.

Why even bring up MIL guys then? It's because you have a big chip on your shoulder. You can't stand us. Admit it. We have multi-millionaire pilots and pilots with full pensions at Alaska flying over age 60 with guys on the street because they "like it." They don't care about pay or bennies at all. They got theirs. In fact, the top 1/3 of the list has "theirs." Are/were they mil? Not all of them. I am sure there are non-mil a$$wipes all over the system so why do you feel you have to single out MIL guys?

Nothing worse than managment telling your negotiators that you don't need a health plan because plenty of other guys don't care..... or the one they are offering is a POS.

This is your money point. I 100% agree with you. I have to disagree that the problem is mil guys with a pension. I know many mil guys who would give you the shirt of their backs. In general, we look out for one another. Sure there are bad apples but for you to take a swipe at us in general is poor form but not unexpected. So, while your last point was good, your post in general was an epic failure.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is your money point. I 100% agree with you. I have to disagree that the problem is mil guys with a pension. I know many mil guys who would give you the shirt of their backs. In general, we look out for one another. Sure there are bad apples but for you to take a swipe at us in general is poor form but not unexpected. So, while your last point was good, your post in general was an epic failure.

Let's be clear, AC tried to use my statements as anti MIL. Sorry it came from MIL guys. I never took it as representative as all MIL... but it came froom MIL guys.


So if your an an elected rep with DFR responsibilities and a pilot says "I got a pension and HC from my previous career" and you've been told by management that they're holding back on HC and 401k contributions because they've been told by pilots that they've got it or they can get it from their spouse.... (basically the Wal Mart race to the bottom effect)

What do you say to these pilots who express an indifference?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What I offer may not work, but what you offer hasn't worked, so where does that leave us?

What do you offer?

For example, I offer ALPA PAC and UP PAC. You've yet to state that you ever contributed. It is not the amount but the participation %. So, if you never have, then how can you say it has worked or not worked?

For example, recently ALPA got a win because airlines could not consider duty time towards FMLA. ALPA changed that not only for ALPA pilots but all flight crews, including jb and skywest. Is that ok? Or does ALPA still not work?

ALPA's solutions continue to be the same as they have been for the last 30 years as if nothing has changed regarding labor and bankruptcy laws.

This is not true.

What does any solution or suggestion I or anyone else offers when supposed leadership like you and Rez have failed to admit there is even a problem solely out of fear it may make us look bad.

Again not true. First you've failed to offer any solution or suggestion. But it goes further than that... you have to offer a solution and a pragmatic methodology in implementation.

There are dozens of other posters through the years who have tried to discuss problems, we can't all be haters.

Look, I'll make it easy for you. Instead of coming up with a problem AND a workable solution, just identify a problem that you think ALPA has and should address.....

 

[Mamma]

Let's be clear, AC tried to use my statements as anti MIL. Sorry it came from MIL guys. I never took it as representative as all MIL... but it came froom MIL guys.

Why don't we just drop this trivial crap. On another note, my co-pilot just Googled "Downs Syndrome Porn" and I am appalled with him. Even more appalling was that there are tons of links for this kind of porn. What is wrong with people?.


So if your an an elected rep with DFR responsibilities and a pilot says "I got a pension and HC from my previous career" and you've been told by management that they're holding back on HC and 401k contributions because they've been told by pilots that they've got it or they can get it from their spouse.... (basically the Wal Mart race to the bottom effect)

What do you say to these pilots who express an indifference?

This is easy. What do you say to pilots who stab each other in the back? What do you say to pilots who sell out the next generation to get theirs? What do you say about apathy in regards to ALPA and ALPA-PAC? You tell them all to get fu(ked and educate them on why they are complete and utter morons. If that does not work, you break their legs and burn down their house.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why don't we just drop this trivial crap. On another note, my co-pilot just Googled "Downs Syndrome Porn" and I am appalled with him. Even more appalling was that there are tons of links for this kind of porn. What is wrong with people?.

Not trival when you are working on a CBA and you've got gaps in your unity.

This is easy. What do you say to pilots who stab each other in the back? What do you say to pilots who sell out the next generation to get theirs? What do you say about apathy in regards to ALPA and ALPA-PAC? You tell them all to get fu(ked and educate them on why they are complete and utter morons. If that does not work, you break their legs and burn down their house.

Naw, you just work with these guys as best you can.... but getting wrapped around the axle like AC doesn't help matters... it de-unifies.

 

[Mamma]

Not trival when you are working on a CBA and you've got gaps in your unity.

Rez, your post regarding the behavior of MIL guys that have a pension was ill-conceived and far from reflective of the group as a whole. Thus, it was trivial and dividing. I was trying to let you off the hook. Wink. Wink.

Naw, you just work with these guys as best you can.... but getting wrapped around the axle like AC doesn't help matters... it de-unifies.

Yeah, you can do that too. But you did ask for solutions and I gave you a couple. I hope you don't think the intent of your original post on this subject was unifying. It was not.

 

[DonVerita]

Second point: Silly also and totally untrue. Workman's comp is pretty liberal.

So what is your point? Next time don't help with the wheelchair, let someone trip over a bag, screw the next crew so they may become fatigued and crash, make sure everyone misses their connecting flights, make sure some ailine employees don't get home that day, and commuting pilots don't make their trips, all for notional protection of a contract provision? This is what you do in the REAL world?

Care to roll the dice on that OJI there sport?

For the rest of your rant...stop sensationalizing. Nobody is going to become fatigued and crash or miss their commute flight because a passenger's bag is sitting on the jetway. It will get sent down the slot, but it will be done by the proper personnel.

If a bag were positioned in such a way as to cause a safety hazard, then of course I would move it...a few feet to the extent necessary to no longer pose a hazard. But I certainly wouldn't be taking it outside, down the steps and who knows where else you went with it.

I'm glad you don't work here so we don't have to put you on the Pre-Scab list as we come closer to going on strike ourselves.

 

[Lear70]

First point is just silly. I can carry a bag down stairs,

Second point: Silly also and totally untrue. Workman's comp is pretty liberal.

Speak for yourself there, chief.

I just spent over 2 YEARS getting my OJI paid for by worker's comp and just now healing up from it.

The"real world" isn't nearly as cut and dry as you think it is.

 

[Dan Roman]

These two posts above make a good point. Stop sensationalising and the world is not as cut and dry as some want it to be. The Fox news mentality is dragging our country down and dividing us all.
To a certain extent I understand were AirCobra is coming from. There have been times when labor goes to far. But as far as Spirit goes, how much they are willing to take from management is their decision and if they are unified and have gotten to the point of a strong majority voting for a strike, than they are fighting the good fight and we all need to be supportive.
Keep in mind that's a long way from an actual strike, but if management, like so many others in this country has gotten way to greedy and is lacking in fairness to the employees, than the pilots are doing what has to be done. A strike vote can be a very effective tool in a negotiation.

AirCobra, when you throw out the "dirty coomie, socialist" crap you start to sound like a member of the lunatic fringe in this country that go around calling the President of the United States a "Socialist".
This country was built on the middle class and it was what made us great. We are slipping more and more into the haves and have nots with a few people at the top making way more than they should at the expense of the majority. I hope the President can start steering us back in that direction.

 

[freightdogfred]

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg.
The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at
Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a
wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! If you can raed tihs forwrad it.

Use your time sitting at your desk doing nothing to study, get a college degree and learn to spell. Oh, once you have the degree, maybe you'll land a job with a Major.

 

[AirCobra]

Care to roll the dice on that OJI there sport?

For the rest of your rant...stop sensationalizing. Nobody is going to become fatigued and crash or miss their commute flight because a passenger's bag is sitting on the jetway. It will get sent down the slot, but it will be done by the proper personnel.

If a bag were positioned in such a way as to cause a safety hazard, then of course I would move it...a few feet to the extent necessary to no longer pose a hazard. But I certainly wouldn't be taking it outside, down the steps and who knows where else you went with it.

I'm glad you don't work here so we don't have to put you on the Pre-Scab list as we come closer to going on strike ourselves.

Sensationalizing! You mean the IAM's claim isn't sensationalizing. If it were such a serious issue that took away jobs it would be a provision in every IAM contract, but it isn't.

 

[AirCobra]

Speak for yourself there, chief.

I just spent over 2 YEARS getting my OJI paid for by worker's comp and just now healing up from it.

The"real world" isn't nearly as cut and dry as you think it is.

I am sorry to hear that you were injured, but the point was were you injured doing something at work you were not supposed to do, and that is why your claim won't get paid. Do you think if I was injured as Don mentioned that it was the bag that injuried me and not the stairs? If I tripped, I tripped on the stairs right? We go up and down on the stairs of the jetway all the time, so why would I have trouble filing a claim?...Aah its silly to even talk about, you know exactly what I mean and all of you have done it or something similar.

I used the point to be illustrative of how far apart we are from other work groups at the same airline. Don't you think if we had a better working relationship that thie never would have been a grievance filed in the first place? I have heard pilots get into it with rampers and CS about this kind of stuff on numerous occasions. So you never heard a pilot say "hey hurry up or we are going to be late", or "hey get someone over here to help load this wheel chair" That is selecting and directing, also not permitted under the provisions of the IAM contract.

So maybe spare me the criticism a little bit when we all know the truth and maybe say something to Don about threatening people.

 

[AirCobra]

These two posts above make a good point. Stop sensationalising and the world is not as cut and dry as some want it to be. The Fox news mentality is dragging our country down and dividing us all.
To a certain extent I understand were AirCobra is coming from. There have been times when labor goes to far. But as far as Spirit goes, how much they are willing to take from management is their decision and if they are unified and have gotten to the point of a strong majority voting for a strike, than they are fighting the good fight and we all need to be supportive.
Keep in mind that's a long way from an actual strike, but if management, like so many others in this country has gotten way to greedy and is lacking in fairness to the employees, than the pilots are doing what has to be done. A strike vote can be a very effective tool in a negotiation.

AirCobra, when you throw out the "dirty coomie, socialist" crap you start to sound like a member of the lunatic fringe in this country that go around calling the President of the United States a "Socialist".
This country was built on the middle class and it was what made us great. We are slipping more and more into the haves and have nots with a few people at the top making way more than they should at the expense of the majority. I hope the President can start steering us back in that direction.

Not to sound like a first grader but "he started it" with the sensationalism about OJI and taking peoples jobs. I think is very divisive to lie and say you haven't done things that you have only to make a point at someone else's expense.

As far as the President goes I don't think he is a Socialist at all, and have stated so in the posts. As far as Rez goes, I separate the political Rez from the Rez I am talking to here. If Rez wants to post articles from Socialist websites, I don't really care, but I want him to be honest about it. Why? because the articles he posts he often doesn't source, so I believe he is misrepresenting them as news rather than what they are which are, opinion and left wing conspiracy most of the time. This is a dishonest way to try and influence people. I only became angry when he tried to affect the relief efforts in Haiti based on a conspiracy presented by a Socialist website. How would you have reacted especially of you had been lived in Haiti and understood what it was like there?

I asked a very simple question. If Spirit does strike, what will be gained? I didn't get much of an answer other if they don't can't have a decent pay and schedule and a strike bankrupts the airline, then good riddance. I asked if this was a good position and perhaps we should try a different approach? Well go back and read the responses. Did I ever call anyone a moron, did I ever threaten anyone? Yet I am the "hater" and I sound like the "lunatic fringe"? For what? Asking what we hope to accomplish, or saying maybe we are going about things the wrong way, not based on some lunatic notion of mine, but on our history.

So ask me what ALPA problems are, well it starts here. Too many people are willing to shout down and marginalize anyone critical of ALPA for any reason because of the fear it will show management some sort of disunity. I contend this attitude makes us weaker, not stronger. Don't you know people that have been turned off by this attitude, because I sure do. Am I asking too much for other peoples opinions to be respected , even if there is disagreement, to do away with all the damn defensiveness, and oh yeah stop with the threats and insults, since I have yet to find how threats and insults promote unity. Is that too much to ask?

 

[AirCobra]

Have some integrity and honor. Everyone else has done it is an excuse for the weak.

Well you didn't answer the question. So you have done that sort of thing too. Well what were the implications?

Honor and integrity also means I am not going to admonish people for doing the same things I have done. All you got on me is you didn't get caught.

 

[AirCobra]

Aircobra, in all of this back and forth nonsense, you have still failed to point out even a single suggestion for how things should be changed. All you do is say that ALPA's ways don't work (I completely disagree, of course), but you offer no alternatives whatsoever. As Rez would say, that just makes you a "hater." Do you have anything constructive to add, or just more attacks?

Well if you want to go back to the Spirit situation, what do you think will be gained by a strike in the short term and long term? What do you know about Oaktree? Is the attitude if Spirit fails then they didn't deserve to exist in the first place?

 

[AirCobra]

Naw, you just work with these guys as best you can.... but getting wrapped around the axle like AC doesn't help matters... it de-unifies.

Accusations against retired military pilots and military reservists who in previous posts you accused of "gaming the system" promotes unity? If 20-30 percent of airline pilots are still in the reserves, how does someone in ALPA's leadership accusing and alienating nearly one third of your ALPA brothers promote unity?

Its not an insult Rez for me to bring this up. It is something you said and part of being a leader is being accountable for what you say. You can't make up accusations like reservists are gaming the system and then tell people they have to prove the accusations are untrue. You have a serious problems with prejudice and disrespect for military pilots. You have made three comments in this thread alone which could be considered insulting. I would expect more from ALPA's leadership.