If/When Spirit Strikes

[pilotyip]

aircobra keep up the good work, you got rez so busy she can not post anywhere else.

 

[AirCobra]

So if they were overstaffed why would you hump the bag? Either way you are skewing the performance numbers. On principle if you do undocumented work, management looks at the numbers and says we have too many rampers, let some go.

Either way, it simply isn't your job, not your responsibility. Now, the classic response is. "its not my job is a poor attitude and work ethic". Yet it is not your responsibility to, under your own accord, to take on someone else's responsibility. This is performance welfare. Management loves it.

That is why the IAM defines the work to their own members, because guys like you will do it. It sets a preceedent that mgmnt will exploit. The camels nose under the tent. But more importantly, if management can get anyone to do it, they will. I've seen middle and upper management on many flights and I've never seen them hump a bag. To be forthright, they always appeared that it was beneath them.


Not your responsibility. What other parts of the operation are you willing to to jump up and be johhny on the spot for? catering? Lav cleaning? cabin cleaning.... Why are any of these different? All of this is honorable work done by people who are just trying to scrape by on a meager existence and along comes you in your crisp, clean uniform ready to beat them down another rung, by gladly doing their job for free....

It isn't hard. Follow the COM and AOM, FARs, CFR, and CBA.

It is not a notional principle. It is fundamental. At one of my regionals we'd have this debate ad nauseum. At one point a pilot washed a RJ windshield. The company wrote it up in the flight ops newsletter as this pilot was being a good guy, all things wonderful. He was slammed and personally embarrassed. Used by mgmt.

You are not management.

It doesn't matter if other IAM contracts don't have this provision. If you get pulled over by a cop do you tell him that another towns laws are different?


The next crew isn't expecting or hoping that you'll hump bags. They know the system is dependant on good management, not johhny on the spot.

As an elected ALPA rep who worked an OJI case and discussed others with our CA, you are wrong.

Catastrophic failure. I've a soft spot for moms traveling with kids alone. I do whatever I can to help. Moving a bag to prevent personal injury and violating a labor contract is not valid. Personal injury and on time are not the same.

, or even worse.. what if you were like really, really late?


Then document it!!! These problems won't get fixed when you act autonomously. Management looks at numbers. Data. You are skewing the data. They don't see the problem because you mask it.

If you insist on humping bags and cleaning lavs then you must document it to show where the weaknesses are in the system!

Help the crew that got extended by giving them the facts so they can also file a report.

Denial and personal justification don't work here. You were a professional pilot, and expected to behave accordingly. What you are saying here is, as the older kid: well the younger kids were doing it too!


Nope. I recall waiting with a family member whose wife was in a wheelchair. The man stated he used to get angry but now just accepts it. Airlines have contracted out wheelchair service to the lowest bidder (your capitalism at its best...) It is the airlines responsibility. Not yours. If they truely want good WC service they'd do it. I am sure Glenn's bonus for raping pilot pay and pensions would fix the wheelchair problem.


Be a big boy and move the bag. It is ok.


Suddenly you are responsible for another crews professional assessment to determine their own state of fatigue? Who is responsible for determining your fatigue status? A guy just like you on an earlier flight who is johnny on the the spot humping bags?


Show me in the FOM or CBA that you are responsible for everyone catching their connecting flights.


Are you going to drive them home?


Commuting pilots know the reality of commuting. They are prepared to go the the crashpad or get a hotel. What they probably don't like is pilots working for free and masking mgmnt incompetence.

You describe it as notional when it is fundamental. At a minimal it is codified federal law. So what you are advocating is breaking federal law.


I doubt you've ever functioned as a Part 121 PIC? I don't want my FOs bouncing out of the cockpit to hump bags. I want them in their seat, relaxed and ready to do their job. If they have 5 mons to hump bags then they have 5 mins to go to to the back end and run a little C/L/R with the FAs. In addition, if something comes up critical to flight safety I want them there so I don't have to explain it to them and get them up to speed when they come back from bag humping. The most critical part of SA is knowing whats happened. Also, if something comes up and the captain has to leave the flight deck it is awkward because no else is there because you gotta be johnny on the spot, humping bags.

Professional pilots do not hump bags, clean lavs or other clearly defined job descriptions of other employees. It degrades the profession and motivates management to get us to devalue ourselves. Have some self respect.

Rez why did you waste your time? You have done the same sort of thing to get out on time at one time or another, everyone has, and you will move a bag out of the way if someone is going to trip and fall. Please spare me self righteous lying. BTW I was an FE, so I don't think the Captain probably even cared if I was there or not.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I think what I said about Spirit applies across the board just like what you said about United and Southwest. A radical culture shift is what you mentioned. I also accept that the leadership of ALPA is not very receptive to radical culture shifts.

What specifically do you suggest is a radical cultural shift?

I don't accept that anyone who expresses an opposing viewpoints should be shouted down or ridiculed.

Agreed. Yet this is what you do to be on other political issues. You refuse to address the issue and resort to name calling a labeling.

In addition, opposing viewpoints have to have merit, credibility and traction. You can't simply make broad brush claims that "ALPA should just ______." And then claim ALPA is messed up because someone else didn't implement.

Being adaptive to situations, analyzing, and learning from our mistakes, is something I believe is sorely lacking in our organization. We need to strengthen the organization so it is ready and equipped to take on big issues like changing CFR's.

Ok... good... how exactly should we be adaptive? What should we do exactly?

In addition, changing CFR, like you suggest is all about CapHill. When I asked you how much you give to ALPA PAC you sneered that you got a grievance against you from the IAM, meaning that is the best of your participation.

As an UAL pilot, you could have also given to UP-PAC. Since you just suggested that we take on big issues like changing CFRs did you give to ALPA and UP PAC?

To use your analogy changing government is the war, but to win the war we have to win some battles first, and we are not going to win battles unless we adapt to the current environment.

Agreed. HOW? it is all about the HOW.

Look how the laws have been changed in favor of corporations over the past decade. But ALPA doesn't want to operate in the new environment, they want to operate in the old one. So you talk about changing CFR's and Washington back to make it so ALPA can work like it used to. Well what do we do in the meantime? What have we done to adapt to the current environment?

What odes this mean? The old and new? Explain what this old and new is? I don't get your understanding of this....

Are strikes still the most effective type of business warfare in this environment?

Yes. If you disagree, then state way.

That is all I was talking about with Spirit, a united front that spans the entire company, not a united front of pilots from other airlines.

And I told you that when you align with other employee groups they can drag you down. Look ALPA might seem weak but compared to other unions ALPA is pretty good.

But what you are talking about is getting other employee groups to honor your picket line. Look, a united front with other groups is fine, but if there is no coercion it doesn't matter. That coercion is a strike. If you have a better idea let's hear it.

I don't think management cares what that Canadian Metroliner pilots are on Spirit's side because they can't exert pressure like a combined effort of employee groups within a single company can given the way laws are now. I know you had opinions why that won't work and I appreciate that. Well then I would like hear what others have, but I don't because if you say you need change, it also means admitting that you have made mistakes, and we have become very resistant to doing that. How is it ego preservation to say "hey we screwed up, lets fix it"?

The only thing that makes a company change is govt laws and intervention and group unity. The govt laws and intervention are the RLA and a strike. The group unity is leadership. It is nice that you got the rampers support, but that is symbolic unless it is a quid pro quo for them.

Rez you lost a great opportunity. If you are ALPA leadership you had an anonymous forum to discuss peoples concerns with our organization, maybe from people that otherwise would be too afraid to speak in public. You could have been listening all these years and trying to understand other points of view and tried to be open to other ideas. Instead you squandered that goodwill in a torrent of personal attacks, insults, and defense of ALPA against criticism at all costs.

Negative. The guys that you've associated yourself with are haters. Again you are trying to legitimize them because they are the anti-ALPA crowd. But that doesn't mean logic and reason should be thrown out the window to accommodate stupidity, hatred and obstructionism.

What you said to that Fed Ex guy was reprehensible,

I thought we were talking about the issues. Now you are back to attacks.

and you have made some pretty obscene accusations against people who honorably serve their country.

So much for the issues.

How do you think that makes the rank and file feel about their leadership?
It turns people off to get insulted, even anonymously and I am sure a lot of stopped discussing anything with you out of frustration.

That is because they get frustrated because they have poor expectations, expect radical change, expect others to do the heavy lifting.

I think you are like a politician that has lost touch with their constituents. You have lost your way. Well hopefully you can reflect and try to get back on track. You will be able better serve us and our organization if you do.

Now that you are done, let's get back to the issues....

Three direct replies here:

You've stated that you think Spirit pilots should not use the strike route, not seek out support from non-Spirit pilot groups and form alliances and coalitions with other Spirit labor groups. Ok, fine... where is the coercion or influence in this game plan to get mgmnt to negotiate fairly and timely?

In addition you stated a radical cultural shift in ALPA? What exactly do you mean by this? and HOW will it get done?

You also stated that changing the CFR and the old and new ways. But you have yet to state that you participate in ALPA or UP PAC. Why? And if you won't do the PAC how do you expect ALPA to change CFRs?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez why did you waste your time?

Because other pilots will read this and need to consider the implications.

You have done the same sort of thing to get out on time at one time or another, everyone has,

Have some integrity and honor. Everyone else has done it is an excuse for the weak.

and you will move a bag out of the way if someone is going to trip and fall.

I stated that you should move the bag if you feel it is an injury situation, but that it is fundamentally different that breaking federal law that is codified in a labor contract. Why do insist on being special and exempting yourself from the law?

Please spare me self righteous lying.

Back on the personal attacks?

BTW I was an FE, so I don't think the Captain probably even cared if I was there or not.

So now you speak for the Captain?

 

[Mamma]

From Rez:

I am tired of MIL guys showing with with their pensions and health bennies and not giving a damm about their fellow pilots who are trying to make it better for them. The MIL guys deserve their bennies, but they also are expected to support their fellow pilots in an effort to gain a fair and reasonable contract for themselves and their family.

Rez, once again you swing for the bleachers and strike out. YGBFSM with this remark. I was enjoying the back and forth until you crammed your head up your a$$ and farted this gem out. I would venture to guess that a very large percentage of airline pilots have a military history and a very very large percentage of them are not collecting a pension or health bennies. You see, they got out or are reservists. I don't know of any military pilots who do not support their fellow pilots. In fact, I would venture to guess the majority of mil pilots support their fellow pilots because that is what we do...watch each other's back. In fact, I personally know of three pilots (there are more) at Alaska Airlines that are still working because mil pilots opted to go on orders to keep them on property. They opted to go fly to war instead of letting the company throw more pilots on the street.

We have engaged on the military issue in the past and you came up WAY short in your knowledge of the military and the people who serve. Maybe in the future you could just shut your pie-hole on this issue. Your conspiracy theories and anti-military blather are getting old.

Now back to the rant.....

 

[PCL_128]

Aircobra, in all of this back and forth nonsense, you have still failed to point out even a single suggestion for how things should be changed. All you do is say that ALPA's ways don't work (I completely disagree, of course), but you offer no alternatives whatsoever. As Rez would say, that just makes you a "hater." Do you have anything constructive to add, or just more attacks?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

From Rez:

I am tired of MIL guys showing with with their pensions and health bennies and not giving a damm about their fellow pilots who are trying to make it better for them. The MIL guys deserve their bennies, but they also are expected to support their fellow pilots in an effort to gain a fair and reasonable contract for themselves and their family.

Rez, once again you swing for the bleachers and strike out. YGBFSM with this remark. I was enjoying the back and forth until you crammed your head up your a$$ and farted this gem out. I would venture to guess that a very large percentage of airline pilots have a military history and a very very large percentage of them are not collecting a pension or health bennies.

Then my comments would no apply to them.

You see, they got out or are reservists. I don't know of any military pilots who do not support their fellow pilots. In fact, I would venture to guess the majority of mil pilots support their fellow pilots because that is what we do...watch each other's back. In fact, I personally know of three pilots (there are more) at Alaska Airlines that are still working because mil pilots opted to go on orders to keep them on property. They opted to go fly to war instead of letting the company throw more pilots on the street.

Noble effort on their part. I am sure it was an acillary point in the decision process, but not reason they went on a MIL LOA.

We have engaged on the military issue in the past and you came up WAY short in your knowledge of the military and the people who serve. Maybe in the future you could just shut your pie-hole on this issue. Your conspiracy theories and anti-military blather are getting old.

Now back to the rant.....

You have failed to bring up and adddress the issue! You spoke of reservist/guard guys that are not a MIL pension or healthplan (unless they are on active duty) and you spoke of guys who took a MIL LOA...

What you failed to address is the MIL guys (that have said this in my presence) that they really don't care about air line pay and benefits because thet already got that covered. Often these are guys that wanted to be MIL pilots or were NFO/WSOs and built CIV time over the years, retired then decided to "fullfill" a dream and go fly in the airlines. As I said, they deserve the bennies and should use them just as a spouse whose employer offers a better plan would....

Address the issue... guys who are indifferent because "they got theirs". It is a real slap in the face when you are trying to pay the house note, keep your family healthy and working to better your CBA. Is this all of the MIL guys? Nope. I never said it was... I said it was the guys who displayed the attitude of indifference. Same as a pilot who was on his/her spouse plan and had this indifference.

Nothing worse than managment telling your negotiators that you don't need a health plan because plenty of other guys don't care..... or the one they are offering is a POS.

 

[AirCobra]

Aircobra, in all of this back and forth nonsense, you have still failed to point out even a single suggestion for how things should be changed. All you do is say that ALPA's ways don't work (I completely disagree, of course), but you offer no alternatives whatsoever. As Rez would say, that just makes you a "hater." Do you have anything constructive to add, or just more attacks?

PCL you were doing the same things right along with Rez on the old posts I looked at dealing with many of these issues . The insults, the "if you don't like it get lost" attitude. Calling anyone or everyone that says anything against ALPA a "hater" is hardly constructive. I pointed out things I thought would help, all you guys offered is the same old rhetoric and the same old solutions I have been hearing since I became an ALPA member 15 years ago. What I offer may not work, but what you offer hasn't worked, so where does that leave us? ALPA's solutions continue to be the same as they have been for the last 30 years as if nothing has changed regarding labor and bankruptcy laws. What does any solution or suggestion I or anyone else offers when supposed leadership like you and Rez have failed to admit there is even a problem solely out of fear it may make us look bad.

There are dozens of other posters through the years who have tried to discuss problems, we can't all be haters.

 

[PCL_128]

You've suggested nothing! You're only so-called suggestion is to "stop doing the same things." Well, if we're going to stop doing one thing, what do we do instead? You've offered nothing but attacks and the usual neo-con pro-corporate, anti-labor drivel.

 

[Mamma]

Then my comments would no apply to them.

Why even post something this stupid is my point. Sure there are MIL guys who feel this way but the VAST majority don't.


Noble effort on their part. I am sure it was an acillary point in the decision process, but not reason they went on a MIL LOA.

You are sure of this? Please tell me how this is so? Maybe because you are looking at it from your viewpoint and that viewpoint would not sacrifice for someone else. I'll let you in on a little secret....it was the direct reason and how I know is I am one of them and I know the others. You don't know me or them and you don't know jack about servicemen in general from your previous posts. Your opinions on servicemen and women are insulting.

You have failed to bring up and adddress the issue! You spoke of reservist/guard guys that are not a MIL pension or healthplan (unless they are on active duty) and you spoke of guys who took a MIL LOA...

The issue, that you brought up, is that MIL people with pensions could give a crap about others in the airline industry. I brought that point up exactly. You may know 2 or 3 that feel this way but I can assure you most do not.

What you failed to address is the MIL guys (that have said this in my presence) that they really don't care about air line pay and benefits because thet already got that covered. Often these are guys that wanted to be MIL pilots or were NFO/WSOs and built CIV time over the years, retired then decided to "fullfill" a dream and go fly in the airlines. As I said, they deserve the bennies and should use them just as a spouse whose employer offers a better plan would....

Who gives a crap if they care about pay or benefits. They got it covered chief! Now if they work to undermine the pilot group then that is a different story. You know as well as I do, there are many a pilot who would stab his "brother" in the back to make an extra buck. I can just take a look at my airline. 110 guys on the street and greedy bastards flying to the max and picking up everything they can. I can assure you this is not a military problem.

Address the issue... guys who are indifferent because "they got theirs". It is a real slap in the face when you are trying to pay the house note, keep your family healthy and working to better your CBA. Is this all of the MIL guys? Nope. I never said it was... I said it was the guys who displayed the attitude of indifference. Same as a pilot who was on his/her spouse plan and had this indifference.

Why even bring up MIL guys then? It's because you have a big chip on your shoulder. You can't stand us. Admit it. We have multi-millionaire pilots and pilots with full pensions at Alaska flying over age 60 with guys on the street because they "like it." They don't care about pay or bennies at all. They got theirs. In fact, the top 1/3 of the list has "theirs." Are/were they mil? Not all of them. I am sure there are non-mil a$$wipes all over the system so why do you feel you have to single out MIL guys?

Nothing worse than managment telling your negotiators that you don't need a health plan because plenty of other guys don't care..... or the one they are offering is a POS.

This is your money point. I 100% agree with you. I have to disagree that the problem is mil guys with a pension. I know many mil guys who would give you the shirt of their backs. In general, we look out for one another. Sure there are bad apples but for you to take a swipe at us in general is poor form but not unexpected. So, while your last point was good, your post in general was an epic failure.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is your money point. I 100% agree with you. I have to disagree that the problem is mil guys with a pension. I know many mil guys who would give you the shirt of their backs. In general, we look out for one another. Sure there are bad apples but for you to take a swipe at us in general is poor form but not unexpected. So, while your last point was good, your post in general was an epic failure.

Let's be clear, AC tried to use my statements as anti MIL. Sorry it came from MIL guys. I never took it as representative as all MIL... but it came froom MIL guys.


So if your an an elected rep with DFR responsibilities and a pilot says "I got a pension and HC from my previous career" and you've been told by management that they're holding back on HC and 401k contributions because they've been told by pilots that they've got it or they can get it from their spouse.... (basically the Wal Mart race to the bottom effect)

What do you say to these pilots who express an indifference?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What I offer may not work, but what you offer hasn't worked, so where does that leave us?

What do you offer?

For example, I offer ALPA PAC and UP PAC. You've yet to state that you ever contributed. It is not the amount but the participation %. So, if you never have, then how can you say it has worked or not worked?

For example, recently ALPA got a win because airlines could not consider duty time towards FMLA. ALPA changed that not only for ALPA pilots but all flight crews, including jb and skywest. Is that ok? Or does ALPA still not work?

ALPA's solutions continue to be the same as they have been for the last 30 years as if nothing has changed regarding labor and bankruptcy laws.

This is not true.

What does any solution or suggestion I or anyone else offers when supposed leadership like you and Rez have failed to admit there is even a problem solely out of fear it may make us look bad.

Again not true. First you've failed to offer any solution or suggestion. But it goes further than that... you have to offer a solution and a pragmatic methodology in implementation.

There are dozens of other posters through the years who have tried to discuss problems, we can't all be haters.

Look, I'll make it easy for you. Instead of coming up with a problem AND a workable solution, just identify a problem that you think ALPA has and should address.....

 

[Mamma]

Let's be clear, AC tried to use my statements as anti MIL. Sorry it came from MIL guys. I never took it as representative as all MIL... but it came froom MIL guys.

Why don't we just drop this trivial crap. On another note, my co-pilot just Googled "Downs Syndrome Porn" and I am appalled with him. Even more appalling was that there are tons of links for this kind of porn. What is wrong with people?.


So if your an an elected rep with DFR responsibilities and a pilot says "I got a pension and HC from my previous career" and you've been told by management that they're holding back on HC and 401k contributions because they've been told by pilots that they've got it or they can get it from their spouse.... (basically the Wal Mart race to the bottom effect)

What do you say to these pilots who express an indifference?

This is easy. What do you say to pilots who stab each other in the back? What do you say to pilots who sell out the next generation to get theirs? What do you say about apathy in regards to ALPA and ALPA-PAC? You tell them all to get fu(ked and educate them on why they are complete and utter morons. If that does not work, you break their legs and burn down their house.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why don't we just drop this trivial crap. On another note, my co-pilot just Googled "Downs Syndrome Porn" and I am appalled with him. Even more appalling was that there are tons of links for this kind of porn. What is wrong with people?.

Not trival when you are working on a CBA and you've got gaps in your unity.

This is easy. What do you say to pilots who stab each other in the back? What do you say to pilots who sell out the next generation to get theirs? What do you say about apathy in regards to ALPA and ALPA-PAC? You tell them all to get fu(ked and educate them on why they are complete and utter morons. If that does not work, you break their legs and burn down their house.

Naw, you just work with these guys as best you can.... but getting wrapped around the axle like AC doesn't help matters... it de-unifies.

 

[Mamma]

Not trival when you are working on a CBA and you've got gaps in your unity.

Rez, your post regarding the behavior of MIL guys that have a pension was ill-conceived and far from reflective of the group as a whole. Thus, it was trivial and dividing. I was trying to let you off the hook. Wink. Wink.

Naw, you just work with these guys as best you can.... but getting wrapped around the axle like AC doesn't help matters... it de-unifies.

Yeah, you can do that too. But you did ask for solutions and I gave you a couple. I hope you don't think the intent of your original post on this subject was unifying. It was not.