If/When Spirit Strikes

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I told you why. You told me why you don't think it is. Do you think the MEC at Air Wisconsin is wrong or misguided, or do you think a coalition will work at AW and not at Spirit?

Where is the leverage. The coercion?

Let me ask you something else. Do you think wages can be driven up by enough people leaving that a company can get anyone to fly for them so they have to pay more to attract and keep people.

no

That is how the military has worked, and corporations too.

That is how certain markets work

Do you think that can be effective as a strike? Like what if United did its $31 an hour recall in 2006 and not just 20 or 30% didn't take the recall, but no one did.

Regional Capts would be the new hires just like they were in 2007-08

Now if my ALPA brothers at (name of airline here) Express weren't willing to swoop in and take all those jobs form guys that turned down recall, do you think United would have been forced to offer more money to get people to come back and stay?

(not sure you have an "brothers" at ALPA) Would never work this way..... Once the furloughed pilots refused the work and the "free market" had a freak anomaly as you described, UAL would simply tweak the terms for the new hires. The furloughees would never get a second chance after they declined recall IAW the CBA. Recall management loves first year pay.

Look, you are an adorer of the free market. Don't get pissed or disappointed because UAL is nothing for you to come back to.... the "free market" is all about cheaper cost. There is always someone willing to do your job cheaper".

The question becomes... are you to be a subservient sycophant who takes what master gives... or are you willing to stand up for yourself and make your place of income not only better for yourself, but for the guy coming in after you in new hire class.

 

[Mamma]

You prove the point.....

So the MIL guys, when times are good at the airlines don't pull guard duty.... supply/demand? Simply put their needs are met, however, when the times are tough, then the guard unit is well staffed. So what motivates a MIL pilot?

The point is... when you are in new hire class, living off of credit cards and hanging with the FAs because they know how to make Top Ramen 30 different ways.... with the wife wondering WTF are you doing and the discussion of low wages and no healthcare till you pass your checkride or 6 months into employment..... and a MIL guy with retirement, health, etc... says... ______________.

either you like Tap Ramen or you don't......


It is all about whether your needs are met....

What point is it that I proved? Certainly not your point that MIL guys in general would throw everyone else under the bus because they have health care. I have shown you that not all mil guys have health care; many mil guys use the company plan; mil guys are more prone to stick up for the group because we have an instilled sense of loyalty; many non-mil guys have wives who have insurance; and no one sect of the pilot group holds a monopoly on being a$$holes. It sounds like you just want to pigeon-hole an entire group of people.

As far as your first statement, maybe I was not clear for you....when times are good, a lot of mil guys quit the reserves for good. Its not that they are not drilling, its that they quit. They got tired of the hassle of holding two jobs and maintaining proficiency in two or more aircraft. Thus, no military health care. When times are bad, they stick around and with that comes drilling and active orders. Wars change things too.

What motivates the mil guy? It is different with everyone. Right now many want to serve because there are two wars going on. Many mil guys are patriotic; many like the work....doing the job as compared to always training for it; the pay is good. They also want the retirement because many are not getting one from the company anymore. Some mil guys also will take a LOA if it will keep another pilot employed. Money is another motivator. A major on active orders probably makes more than an FO at many airlines today. It is different for everyone.

As far as you eating Top Ramen, that has no bearing. That was the choice you made. You could have made the choice to go into the military, go to law school or become an architect but you chose a job that paid next to nothing in the hopes of landing a good job flying big iron. You knew the pay was piss poor going in. Then to make matters worse, you chose to get married knowing it would be even tougher and fail to educate your wife on how much it really sucks. Now she is confused and wondering why you have such a crappy job. She thought she was marrying a big shot airline pilot! Several years later, you have paid your dues and are sitting in that big shiny jet airliner but the environment has changed for the worse. Your wife is still b1tching that your pay sucks and health care is expensive. The easy thing for you to do is blame the mil guy....the root of all that is evil. We have ours so we could give a crap what happens to you and the rest of the pilot group. You are wrong on so many levels but no matter what I say, I doubt I will change your mind.

 

[pilotyip]

Worth hanging around

As far as your first statement, maybe I was not clear for you....when times are good, a lot of mil guys quit the reserves for good. Its not that they are not drilling, its that they quit. They got tired of the hassle of holding two jobs and maintaining proficiency in two or more aircraft. Thus, no military health care. When times are bad, they stick around and with that comes drilling and active orders. Wars change things too.

I might have been jumpseating on DAL with one of those guys back in the late 90's. 14 yrs service, dropped out of the reserves, said too many hassles and besides his DAL retirement made the military retirement not really worth it. I wonder if he was young enough to get back in 2002?

 

[Mike man]

...14 yrs service, dropped out of the reserves, said too many hassles and besides his DAL retirement made the military retirement not really worth it.

Oops...

 

[kwick]

I told you why. You told me why you don't think it is. Do you think the MEC at Air Wisconsin is wrong or misguided, or do you think a coalition will work at AW and not at Spirit?

Let me ask you something else. Do you think wages can be driven up by enough people leaving that a company can get anyone to fly for them so they have to pay more to attract and keep people. That is how the military has worked, and corporations too. Do you think that can be effective as a strike? Like what if United did its $31 an hour recall in 2006 and not just 20 or 30% didn't take the recall, but no one did. Now if my ALPA brothers at (name of airline here) Express weren't willing to swoop in and take all those jobs form guys that turned down recall, do you think United would have been forced to offer more money to get people to come back and stay?

You bring back memories of another ex-military, airline newbie, Andy Panzy, who used to frequent these boards with an arrogant, all-
knowing attitude.

Why don't you study your manuals, gain a little airline experience,and read
"Flying the Line" , which is about the history of airline pilot labor
relations.

You sound very naive.

 

[Mike man]

What is the answer?

What should the pilots of Spirit do?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What point is it that I proved?

That economics is #1

What motivates the mil guy?

Economics.

As far as you eating Top Ramen, that has no bearing. That was the choice you made. You could have made the choice to go into the military, go to law school or become an architect but you chose a job that paid next to nothing in the hopes of landing a good job flying big iron.
You knew the pay was piss poor going in. Then to make matters worse, you chose to get married knowing it would be even tougher and fail to educate your wife on how much it really sucks. Now she is confused and wondering why you have such a crappy job. She thought she was marrying a big shot airline pilot! Several years later, you have paid your dues and are sitting in that big shiny jet airliner but the environment has changed for the worse. Your wife is still b1tching that your pay sucks and health care is expensive. The easy thing for you to do is blame the mil guy....the root of all that is evil. We have ours so we could give a crap what happens to you and the rest of the pilot group. You are wrong on so many levels but no matter what I say, I doubt I will change your mind.

Major logical fail!
The point isn't choices made or coulda/shoulda/woulda... any career path can turn sour including the MIL. I know guys who were about to get winged and the DoD said sorry... don't need you... and dropped them like a bad case of VD.

The point of this whole thread is pilots who don't have much but are willing to bust ass and put it on the line to make it better for themselves and their families....

 

[Mamma]

The point of this whole thread is pilots who don't have much but are willing to bust ass and put it on the line to make it better for themselves and their families....

Rez, I doubt I am alone on this, but the major logical failure is with you. The point of this thread is exactly what you said above. Your failure lies in your disdain of the military and blatantly stereotyping us as selfish bastards just out for ourselves. Nobody else has faults...just the Mil guys. Thanks. We all appreciate that. I see you made a bunch of friends over on the mil board tonight by labeling them blood thirsty child killers. We appreciate that too. I tried to reason with you knowing I would fail to get through but I tried. Have a nice evening.

 

[AirCobra]

You bring back memories of another ex-military, airline newbie, Andy Panzy, who used to frequent these boards with an arrogant, all-
knowing attitude.

Why don't you study your manuals, gain a little airline experience,and read
"Flying the Line" , which is about the history of airline pilot labor
relations.

You sound very naive.

I just asked a question. How is asking a question displaying a "know it all attitude" The numbers for those refusing recall in 2006 for United were somewhere around 20-30%, and at American I understand it was no different. The sticking point at United was that guys that got furloughed in 2001 were going to get the equivalent of new hire pay when they returned, even though technically they had been with the company for five years. Sure its naive to think that if a United pilot refused recall, because they were five year employees and not willing to get paid as a new hire, some regional guy wouldn't be waiting to take the job for the $31 an hour that United offered. I understand that is reality of pilot unity in our profession.

Just pointing out the irony of those so willing to undercut other pilots when it is to their advantageyet complain about a lack of pilot unity or lecturing old timers on how to make ALPA strong.

Since we are doing Book of the Month Club I suggest you read Hard Landing, especially the part about Eastern Airlines, pre-Lorenzo.

 

[AirCobra]

Look, you are an adorer of the free market. Don't get pissed or disappointed because UAL is nothing for you to come back to.... the "free market" is all about cheaper cost. There is always someone willing to do your job cheaper".

The question becomes... are you to be a subservient sycophant who takes what master gives... or are you willing to stand up for yourself and make your place of income not only better for yourself, but for the guy coming in after you in new hire class.

Rez are you two different people writing the same post? You realize your first paragraph negates your second. If there is always going to be someone willing to do my job cheaper, then what point is there to standing up for yourself when someone will always come along and undercut me?

We already went through this a few months ago, I get "Rez's Rules". When you undercut me I deserved it, that is how free markets work. Now when someone undercuts you its an outrage and its my fault for not standing behind you.

I don't know what the point of talking to you is anyway. How can anyone who contends retired military pilots are responsible for driving down pilot wages while they themselves are flying mainline routes in an RJ for half the money can be taken seriously.

 

[AirCobra]

Major logical fail!
The point isn't choices made or coulda/shoulda/woulda... any career path
The point of this whole thread is pilots who don't have much but are willing to bust ass and put it on the line to make it better for themselves and their families....

That is not what you told that Fed Ex guy, you told him if he didn't like it then leave. Maybe you should change your screenname to Harvey Dent.

Originally Posted by Rez O. Lewshun
You seem to have trouble grasping the concept of choice and free will.

No one forced you to accept employment at FX. and through all the changes at FX, (Flying Tigers, ALPA, FPA, ALPA) no one forced you to stay.

Yet, you seem to have issues with others...for the choices you made.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, I doubt I am alone on this, but the major logical failure is with you. The point of this thread is exactly what you said above. Your failure lies in your disdain of the military and blatantly stereotyping us as selfish bastards just out for ourselves. Nobody else has faults...just the Mil guys. Thanks. We all appreciate that. I see you made a bunch of friends over on the mil board tonight by labeling them blood thirsty child killers. We appreciate that too. I tried to reason with you knowing I would fail to get through but I tried. Have a nice evening.

Not really. We all have faults, but it seems the MIL guys can't talk about their own faults. Seriously... go to the MIL section of this board.... any criticism is met with a harsh backlash... That is probably my issue...

Recall the F18 that crashed at Miramar and wiped out a mans family. The jet should have landed at N. Island, approaching over the water. But the rabid defense spoke volumes.

Same with the two CIV aircraft in the MOA. MIL pilot gets scolded, but the adamant, illogical defense of his actions and the fault was all on the CIV pilots was amazing...

It is not representative of all MIL guys... there are tools in every organization.... right? So lets call the tools out for who they are.....

I support the MIL guys in ALPA work and have sent packages to guys deployed....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What happened to your ungraceful bowing out of this thread... your.......ego........ just....



won't......




let.....



it....







go.

Rez are you two different people writing the same post? You realize your first paragraph negates your second. If there is always going to be someone willing to do my job cheaper, then what point is there to standing up for yourself when someone will always come along and undercut me?

No, my two paragraph describe you quite well....

You are the guy that adores the free market, but doesn't do anything as a UAL pilot to make the place better.... then your market forces furlough you... and you cut and run.....

We already went through this a few months ago, I get "Rez's Rules". When you undercut me I deserved it, that is how free markets work. Now when someone undercuts you its an outrage and its my fault for not standing behind you.

Naw, it just your fault for not defending the profession. You did nothing at UAL, except violate the IAM contract. How embarrassing...

I don't know what the point of talking to you is anyway.

Then why do you do it? You said you were bowing out last week. That you were done, yet here you are setting 'em up so I can knock 'em down. On other threads you offer no logic just labeling, ranting, pouting and tantrums. Don't go away confused... just go away...

How can anyone who contends retired military pilots are responsible for driving down pilot wages

Not at all, just guys like you who don't fight for the profession, to make the place better. I know lots of MIL guys that realize duty, honor, country doesn't apply in the "free market". Once they realize that corporations don't have a 'duty, honor, country' creed like they do, and that mgmnt uses that creed against them, they work hard to defend the profession. But not you. Your creed to mgmnt is "thank you sir, may I have another"

while they themselves are flying mainline routes in an RJ for half the money can be taken seriously.

Didn't you and your mainline pilots give this flying away? What are you ding to get it back. I can assure you I am working to fix it. In addition, I know if I am ever a UAL pilot, I'll know exactly what example not to follow.

There are some new threads popping up on the scope issue due to an article. Like another poster told you... you've much to learn.

You said you'd bow out, yet you keep coming back to get knocked down and out........... I am sure you're be back for more......:laugh:

 

[Mamma]

Not really. We all have faults, but it seems the MIL guys can't talk about their own faults. Seriously... go to the MIL section of this board.... any criticism is met with a harsh backlash... That is probably my issue...

Recall the F18 that crashed at Miramar and wiped out a mans family. The jet should have landed at N. Island, approaching over the water. But the rabid defense spoke volumes.

Same with the two CIV aircraft in the MOA. MIL pilot gets scolded, but the adamant, illogical defense of his actions and the fault was all on the CIV pilots was amazing...

It is not representative of all MIL guys... there are tools in every organization.... right? So lets call the tools out for who they are.....

I support the MIL guys in ALPA work and have sent packages to guys


deployed....

So after all this it has come to light that we actually agree. There are tools everywhere and we will call them out.

 

[Mike man]

So back to a Spirit thread...here are the last 4 quarters of financial reports from the BTS:

...........Operating......Operating......Operating........NET
............Revenue...... Expenses.....Profit/(loss)....INCOME
2008Q4 176,875,000 155,676,000 21,199,000....11,094,000

2009Q1 169,879,000 141,110,000 28,769,000....16,919,000

2009Q2 179,094,000 148,055,000 31,039,000....19,355,000

2009Q3 178,345,000 152,292,000 26,053,000....14,067,000

 

[Mike man]

Update March 12, 2010

The National Mediation Board informed ALPA that it had arranged two days of negotiations to take place on April 6 and 7. NMB member, Linda Puchala, will be participating in mediating these talks personally.

After these talks, the NMB has the authority to declare an impasse and offer binding arbitration before releasing the pilot group and the company to self-help.

...message truncated[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

Linda Puchala

Nominated by President Barack Obama, Ms. Linda A. Puchala was confirmed as Member of the National Mediation Board by the United States Senate on May 21, 2009. She was sworn in on May 26, 2009, completing the term of her predecessor as Chairman through June 30, 2009. Ms. Puchala’s current term as Member runs through June 30, 2012.

Prior to becoming a Member, Ms. Puchala served as the Sr. Mediator (ADR) and the Associate Director of Alternative Dispute Resolution Services of the National Mediation Board. She joined the agency in May, 1999, as a Mediator working on both airline and railroad cases.

Member Puchala has 40 years of experience in Labor Relations, including work as International President of the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA, AFL-CIO, and Staff Director, Michigan State Employees Association, AFSCME, AFL-CIO.
[FONT=&quot]
http://www.nmb.gov/directory/puchala-bio.html
[/FONT]

 

[whymeworry?]

I see standard FI answers, insults, name calling, etc, but how come no one answered the questions? Why do I get calls from Spirit pilots asking about hiring plans at JUS? In the end the consumer determines what the pilots will get paid, not management, not unions, not the gov't. BTW If all the pilot grew balls, would that require single gender operations?

Yer joking, right? 12000 hrs and this is how you think the airline business works?

 

[Lear70]

Yer joking, right? 12000 hrs and this is how you think the airline business works?

He has for years... we've had this conversation ad nauseum here on the boards.

He doesn't quite GET that what the PASSENGERS determine is how much GROSS revenue an airline makes from operations, based on how much they're willing to pay for a ticket.

Passengers don't then decide what we get of that; that's between us and management. If management doesn't think they can be profitable with what the pilots want, they either shut down the airline over it when a strike comes or they allow it, knowing they will have to eventually file bankruptcy and can re-negotiate the contracts then.

Pilots simply bear the responsibility of pricing their services reasonably in negotiations, based on the market and how profitable that airline is. That's where ALPA EF&A comes in. They have, more than once, told MEC's that they cannot get what they want with the company's financials the way they are. On the other hand, when ALPA says that the demands are reasonable compared to the company's financials, then it's up to the pilots to draw that line in the sand.

The flying public has nothing to do with it, but YIP seems to think that ticket pricing translates directly to pilot salaries - it doesn't, except that an airline has to be profitable to demand increases. I think Spirit has demonstrated that quite well...

YMMV

 

[pilotyip]

but YIP seems to think that ticket pricing translates directly to pilot salaries - it doesn't, except that an airline has to be profitable to demand increases. I think Spirit has demonstrated that quite well...YMMV

No he doesn't think that, but you have to admit that consumer demand will effect how much you can charge for a seat in a competitive market. Like you said if the salary demands are too high the costs can not be passed along to the consumer. Also management will then make decision to try it or fold. Which is now this tread started. Also remember if the pilots get more money than every other employee group in the airline will feel they also need to have a raise. This compounds the cost effect of giving any raises.

 

[waveflyer]

What should pilots be paid YIP? Throw out some numbers...

I agree with the joker -' if you're good at something never do it for free'