If/When Spirit Strikes

[Mike man]

Even if an airline turns a profit for a year but shows no growth the year is considered a failure.

It is amazing how many failures there are flying around today with that logic.

 

[AirCobra]

You are losing the debate as shown by the fundamentals classic reversion to the Bible. God has nothing to do with this. Either you can debate intelligently on the issue or not. God can't help your ignorance. Only you can.

Rez,
Look how you are frothing at the mouth of any criticism of ALPA. I am sure you would have me tossed into a Gulag if this was the People's Republic of America you want. Please try to control yourself and learn to function in a Democracy.

The idea of Karma is a pretty universal concept, and has other names, like tit for tat, what goes around-comes around, reap and sow, however you want to say it. You don't understand I want to lose this debate. I want to be proven wrong. I just don't see anything different in what ALPA is saying, so why should it work this time?


That is a false correlation on your part. I've gone above and beyond for the pax. I know the difference. I refuse to be a corporate tool.
I didn't think you did and I said as much. Your A to B comment was just bluster on your part. Anyone with any self respect goes above and beyond, but in doing so you are aiding the bottom line of the corporation. Oh an by the way you work for a corporation so you are a corporate tool, the only way not to be is to not work for a corporation. You are dependent on them even though you pretend you are not.

You need to shed your ignorance first. Seriously, you are so far removed from the labor movement and its ideals that you need to get 'trained and educated' if this is how you really believe. I think the pushback that you've gotten, not from me, but from so many on this thread is telling. Don't you? In addition, having a grievance filed against you is a bad stuff.
You are so into the labor movement you can't see what is happening outside it. You have lost the ability to assess situations outside a very narrow mindset. You are an enigma. Your thoughts about politics are supposedly progressive, and your thoughts about labor are still stuck in the 19th century. I thought the future wasn't iun the past. That is what you told me.


No it is not. Again, from someone who has never really functioned in a democracy you demonstrate again your failure to understand. Democracy is about stability. Revolution and activists movements is about radical change. Sure they can happen within a democratic system, but democracy is not radical.
You are babbling here. I thought freedom of expression is a tennant of democracy and here you are trying to silence me and ridicule me. Now tell me again who doesn't know how to function in a democracy? Anyway, democracy can become nothing more than mob rule, and that is the very essence of what I am complaining about.

Are you serious? We have admitted our mistakes. What do you want ALPA members to be? Opus Dei? Self mutilating?
How to you expect to learn if you don't admit your mistakes? Lear listed seven points where he thinks ALPA has gone wrong, you list 0, its all just managments fault to you. I guess you think admitting mistakes is a sign of weakness. Well all you have done is resign yourself to making the same mistakes over and over again.

Everything that effects Air Line Pilots careers is determined politically. New higher regional pilots don't know this. You should.

But you are advocating that ALPA is paralyzed. What should be done to reverse this. What do you advocate? If you answer nothing else.. tell us what you think ALPA should do differently.. and how. Ideas are great but it is really the how.

Explain
I believe ALPA is ostensibly paralyzed already, you just refuse to notice. I spelled out what I thought should be done to change this in my last long post to you. I was hoping for at least intelligent disagreement, but I got what exactly what I expected a bunch of childish insults from from those that want nothing more than to maintain the status quo. Your posts stink to high heaven Rez. Shout others down, insult people, say ALPA can never admit to a mistake, say ALPA is never wrong because management may find away to use it against us. You are supposedly a leader in ALPA? And these are your attitudes? How then do you function in a supposedly democratic orgnaization?

No you did not. In addition there are UAL pilots that want UPA. You level of understanding is weak. Just read the replies from many others on this thread.
I saw a lot of hard core union guys get turned off by the whole process who were stonewalled by ALPA and now call ALPA "Romper Room." I saw loss after loss for the pilot group while ALPA claimed victory. I saw nearly 30% of pilots refuse recall becuase many were just tired of the management AND union BS. I saw half of our domestic flying taken away by our regional airline ALPA brothers, and I got told by people like you that we got what we deserved. So what lesson should I have learned?


My new sig line.
Good lets talk about that, I let you know why I did it. We were the first flight of the day. Well you know the deal, its an accordion effect, if we get out late, then the next flight become later, and so on and so on. ATC needed to get us out right away or we could expect a 40 minute delay. We were waiting for a ramp guy to take the bags down. We waited to the last possible minute then I got up opened the door to the jetway, signaled a guy on the ground, and handed him the bags on the outside stairs of the jetway.

Why did I do it?

Not only so we wouldn't be delayed and our passengers miss their connections, but so the crew that was to take our plane wouldn't get screwed maybe get their duty day elongated to the point where they couldn't make it home, or another crew wouldn't get extended or have to be called in. You know all the reasons and what can happen, I am sure.

So I don't want screw my fellow ALPA brothers, but you don't see it way do you? I am just an evil voider of IAM contracts. Who wins when two labor groups are pitted against each other? I would say its management. So keep it as you signature line if you want. I will just post the story of how you want to screw ALPA guys so as not to void any Mickey Mouse featherbedding contract provisions of the IAM.

Maybe I can add these gems to my signature line:

Originally Posted by Rez O. Lewshun
Mainline United pilots got what they deserved.

or

Retired military pilots are responsible for driving down wages.

Which do you think would be better?

 

[Mike man]

Mike, please. I know you and I know you know better.

The RLA gives us at least the following two protections.

Grievance procedures that force the company to prove (in a court of law) charges against you. This effectively gives us a defense against unreasonable/arbitrary firing and/or discipline.

It forces the employer to follow formal discipline process.

The RLA provides an arbitration process if we feel wronged and can't work it out in grievance.

I spent most of my adult life working jobs where I could be fired with no reason, no less follow a formal procedure before doing so. Believe me, the system board, the grievance process, arbitration, and the right to council from your elected rep is worth a lot.

If you really don't like the RLA, quit and take a corporate job. Been there done that, I'll take RLA warts and all over a corporate "business card" Chief pilot ANY day.

BTW, all examples you mention are weak areas of the contract. Grey language in every case. Maybe you forgot the grievances we WON using the system. In every case where the language is clear and in our favor, we won. We lost wheel roll because the MEC allowed it for the early 321's. The company tried to get by with stealing our 4 days off in a row because the language is absolutely horrible. We finally beat them (using the RLA overseen Arbitration process) on the four day off deal because of negotiating notes from past contract negotiations and past practice. Non of which would have been possible without the RLA's arbitration process.

Process, sure. Protections for labor, BS. Fly now grieve it later...that is a sweet process.

The RLA is an old broken mostly management protection...

...here is a tidbit from the RLA you may not be familiar with=STATUS QUO

which among other thing requires that both sides, that was BOTH SIDES, "...requirs both sides to maintain the status quo during any arbitration proceedings..."

That is weird...status quo and any arbitration...how is it legal for them to change a past practice during negotiations?

 

[AirCobra]

It is amazing how many failures there are flying around today with that logic.

Mike,
Come on you have to know this. Most airlines flying around are a failure in terms to their investors. Why do you think their stock prices are so low.
Here is a recent example:
http://ceoworld.biz/ceo/2009/07/27/...its-launches-1-million-e1-september-seat-sale

Most airlines that reported a profit this quarter still saw their stock prices drop. It is all about projected revenue. Any idea what Spirit's revenue projections are or perhaps what Oaktree expects from them?

Conversely airlines can be optimistic despite losses, especially when those losses are less than expected.

 

[AirCobra]

It seems to me that Lear70 spelled it out crystal clear for you. I happen to know him and can attest to his sharp analytical skills. Because of him, our pilot group had the data in hand to disect not 1, but 2 abysmal TA's and vote both of them down accordingly.

Nobody said anything about deliberately damaging an airline. Where exactly did you see that? What he and others have said is that we no longer go above and beyond, not one inch. You can thank Management for that. They've never done that for us, yet you think we should always do that for them? Quid pro quo.

So we'll all lose in the long run, eh? That's your flawed thinking. What you need to understand is that every once in a while, some blood has to be spilled in the figurative sense. Do you honestly think that the high paying contracts in recent memory, and even some of the ones still in effect today would have materialized if it hadn't been for our predecessors willing to risk everything by walking the line in a strike? We'd be no better off than the minimum wage 7-11 employee if we weren't willing to exercise our ultimate weapon and actually do so from time to time. What sets us apart is our professionalism, expectation to be comensurately compensated, and our willingness to go to the mat over it.

I agree it was an excellent post, but it is really the only one of its kind in this thread. Most of the posts are "from the gut", high on emotion, low on actual content. Strikes or threats of strikes work sometimes, sometimes they work only in the short term, and sometimes they backfire. I just think as a pilot group we have conditioned ourselves to operate in a way where we don't fully analyze the situation. Its very emotional but not too analytical.

 

[AirCobra]

No they are not business decisions. They are operational decsisons. As the PIC I make those all the time. Again you show your ignorance. You think they are business decisions. Some tool in airline management told you on time, saviing gas, etc was a business choice and you believed them.

Operational decision toward what end? If your only job is to fly from A to B safely why try to get out on time? Who cares about on time. Wouldn't it be more safe operationally to slow down the tempo? Why do you try to conserve fuel in cruise, why do you shut down engines during long taxi's. You are not operationally trying to conserve fuel most of the time so you don't run out of gas and crash. You are doing it to save money.

Its seems it quite a fantasy world you have set up for yourself, he who claims not to be a corporate tool yet works at corporation after corporation. "Not me, I don't care about making money for the company, everything I do is operational" Well you keep telling yourself whatever you want so you feel better about yourself. I won't try and shatter your illusion.

 

[AirCobra]

oh agreed... however when speaking to a chinese one must use chinese. He has no clue what is corporatism, the corprotocracy or elitist/crony/casino capitalism.

Back to the Socialistworker.org catchphrases again I see. Ah the toasty warm blanket of Herr Marx and Herr Engles feels so good.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

It boils down to one line- every time mgmt furloughs or cuts pay- "it's just business." well "it's just business" for us too. Nothing personal, but if you're not willing to walk out- you'll never get paid your full worth.

You somehow forgot to mention this on the Republicans!

 

[boomlrd]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/03/03/1511257/baldanza-touts-spirits-a-la-carte.html

Baldanza touts Spirit's a la carte strategy
MIAMI HERALD STAFF
Why did Miramar-based Spirit Airlines outperform the airline industry in 2009 and rack up its most profitable year? CEO Ben Baldanza told the Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce Wednesday that success was due partly to general consumer appetite for value-oriented products and partly to Spirit's a la carte pricing model, which includes fees for larger seats, onboard beverages and checked bags.

The low-cost carrier sold a half-million fares for under $10 last year, Baldanza said, referring to its popular $9 sale prices, available to members who pay an annual $39.95 fee. On all fares, taxes are extra.

In the past, Spirit has been criticized for its handling of customer service complaints and in 2009 incurred a $375,000 government fine. The airline has said it has addressed core issues that led to the complaints.

 

[AirCobra]

Originally Posted by Rez O. Lewshun
Mainline United pilots got what they deserved.

Retired military pilots are responsible for driving down wages.

Holy Cow Rez,
Do you have an honest bone in your body? I should blame myself for not keeping up on every thread perhaps, but here you are treating me like some lone voice in the wilderness, and there are plenty of people that have problems with ALPA on FI. Whole threads outlining many of the same problems I have, and numerous other concerns I never mentioned from posters like Be Careful, Joe Merchant, Turtle 21, Jester, CopilotDoug and B. Franklin to name a few.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=115683

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=120405

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=109433

And low and behold what do I find? There you are on those threads with the insults, blame shifting, and talking about democracy as if the only kind of democracy is your kind of democracy. It appears you also have some problem sort of problem USAPA which was good for a chuckle and showed your immaturity with a bunch of childish "my union is better than your union" nonsense.


So its not about pilots and labor and representation really, its all about making ALPA look good. Well I am glad I know what you are all about now. I had hoped that maybe you were just a liar about politics, like it was a game or something, but obviously you seek to degrade ANYONE who disagrees with you about ANYTHING. If you have anything to do with ALPA you should bow out because you are not playing it straight. You have lost sight of what you are doing when your sole purpose has become to protect the organization. You are demonizing and marginalizing your brothers and solely to make the organization look good.

You are very misguided, recognizing mistakes, and addressing the concerns of the minority does not weaken democracy, it makes it stronger.