If/When Spirit Strikes

[pilotyip]

lots

What should pilots be paid YIP? Throw out some numbers...

I agree with the joker -' if you're good at something never do it for free'

pilots should make $400k/yr, you just have to find someone that can stay is business at that level. BTW I am good at flying also and I do it for free to support a non-profit. Being good at flying an airplane is something almsot anyone can do with a certain level of skill and desire. Do not take yourself too seriously because you are close to the top of the pile.

 

[Lear70]

Also remember if the pilots get more money than every other employee group in the airline will feel they also need to have a raise.

Pilots will always make more than any other employee group except management.

This is to be expected. The only workers as skilled as we are, arguably, are the mechanics, and they don't have to be gone from their families half the month. We get compensated additionally for that sacrifice. So no, I don't buy into the "The pilots get paid more than us, we should demand more" train of thought. NO employee group, as a whole, feels that way. Flight attendants, rampers, CSR agents, gate agents, office workers, none of them expect to make more than we do, that's ridiculous.

Being good at flying an airplane is something almsot anyone can do with a certain level of skill and desire. Do not take yourself too seriously because you are close to the top of the pile.

I strongly disagree with this assertion, also.

I've flown with WAY too many F/O's who will NEVER upgrade and have NO business being in this industry, but got here because it's their second career or mommy and daddy had enough money to get them through the flight schools that were, arguably, PAID to get them to a passing level.

Once they have to fend for themselves in the real world, they never go anywhere. At least half of the pilots who never make it out of the regionals or the 121/135 freight operators should never have been there to begin with.

Your argument is like trying to say that anyone can be an attorney or doctor with enough desire and persistence. I know I certainly *COULD*, but would I be any *GOOD* at it? probably not. Same goes for flying: some people just don't have any business being here.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Pilots will always make more than any other employee group except management. .

And the only reason why is becasue managment controls the coffers... the actual revenue that is ultimately generated when pilots safely land at the destination.....

It is not that management actually earns the amount of money they pay themselves...!!!

 

[AirCobra]

... yet here you are setting 'em up so I can knock 'em down.

Great analogy Rez! You are like a bowling ball; dense, hard headed, and you like to roll around in the gutter.

 

[AirCobra]

Pilots will always make more than any other employee group except management.

This is to be expected. The only workers as skilled as we are, arguably, are the mechanics, and they don't have to be gone from their families half the month. We get compensated additionally for that sacrifice. So no, I don't buy into the "The pilots get paid more than us, we should demand more" train of thought. NO employee group, as a whole, feels that way. Flight attendants, rampers, CSR agents, gate agents, office workers, none of them expect to make more than we do, that's ridiculous.

Where do you work? Rampers, mechanics, and office workers make more than pilots all over the airline industry. Probably the only reason CSR's don't make more than pilots is because most of their work has been outsourced to aviation service companies. These kind of comments create disunity. For example any CS could talk about the liability they incurr when operaing the jetway, or ramper could talk about the amount of liability they incurr when pushing back an aircraft or insuring aircraft are loaded properly and the cargo doors are secure. Could you just walk onto the ramp and load palletized cargo into a 747? These people are highly skilled, they just have a different skill set.

 

[PCL_128]

Also remember if the pilots get more money than every other employee group in the airline will feel they also need to have a raise. This compounds the cost effect of giving any raises.

This is typical management propaganda that only the slow and dimwitted will believe. There isn't a union in existence that makes its arguments for pay raises based on what some other craft and class is getting paid. Arguments are always made based on what peers are making at other carriers.

 

[Mike man]

Where do you work? Rampers, mechanics, and office workers make more than pilots all over the airline industry. Probably the only reason CSR's don't make more than pilots is because most of their work has been outsourced to aviation service companies. These kind of comments create disunity. For example any CS could talk about the liability they incurr when operaing the jetway, or ramper could talk about the amount of liability they incurr when pushing back an aircraft or insuring aircraft are loaded properly and the cargo doors are secure. Could you just walk onto the ramp and load palletized cargo into a 747? These people are highly skilled, they just have a different skill set.

Time to get back on the meds AirCobra...ramp workers and gate agents...highly skilled???

Ramp worker incurring liability when they push an airplane back? Are you serious?

Other than their $6.50 an hour job what liability do they have? The airline does not come after them to repay the damages if they hit a baggage cart. The fire them if they hit a cart...have you ever actually been to an airport?

Now I will admit that a gate agent does posses one very specialized skill, and it is ignoring people when they stand at their counter for five minutes while the agent looks apparently busy with nothing for ten minutes and if the PAX (or crew member) is still there then they just might help in their feeble minded way that only a gate agent can muster.

Back a few years ago there were plenty of rampers and gate agents making more than pilots. But these were the agents who had worked for US Air for 40 years and were making 100K/year. Those days are long gone.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Great analogy Rez! You are like a bowling ball; dense, hard headed, and you like to roll around in the gutter.

How about baseball.... you've struck out more times on this thread. You refuse to attend batting practice, and somehow find the arrogance to keep stepping into the batters box without yielding a better result.

The Monkey Jar: A small jar is placed at the base of a tree with nuts or other items which may attract the monkey’s curiosity.
The opening of the jar allows the monkey to place his hand in, but when he tries to withdraw it, he is unable to do so without letting go of the contents of the jar. Believe it or not, some monkeys will stay there with their hand in the jar until the hunter comes back to trap them! They are trapped because they are unwilling to let go of something they are doing which is working against them.
​

Your ego is the food. You just can't let it go... so you've trapped yourself on this thread.... constantly holding onto your ego.


If you want to talk issues let's do that... I am still waiting for you to discuss the leverage and coercion created from a labor alliance within a company. Also, I am waiting for you to discuss radical change at ALPA. What that is and how it gets done.


Or you can keep sniping with personal attacks...

 

[AirCobra]

Time to get back on the meds AirCobra...ramp workers and gate agents...highly skilled???

Ramp worker incurring liability when they push an airplane back? Are you serious?

Other than their $6.50 an hour job what liability do they have? The airline does not come after them to repay the damages if they hit a baggage cart. The fire them if they hit a cart...have you ever actually been to an airport?

Now I will admit that a gate agent does posses one very specialized skill, and it is ignoring people when they stand at their counter for five minutes while the agent looks apparently busy with nothing for ten minutes and if the PAX (or crew member) is still there then they just might help in their feeble minded way that only a gate agent can muster.

Back a few years ago there were plenty of rampers and gate agents making more than pilots. But these were the agents who had worked for US Air for 40 years and were making 100K/year. Those days are long gone.

Mike this is a really a terrible post. Ramp workers don't get $6.50 an hour, they get upwards of $20.00 an hour. Many or trained and licensed to operate heavy equipment and are paid for their skill. They can cause millions in damages, and an improperly loaded aircraft or an improperly secured cargo door could cause an aircraft to crash. Saying they are unskilled diminishes their profession and their professionalism. The are mostly union employees you know so they are not just summarily fired as you seem to think. They are screened and trained by the airline, while others are hired for skills they received on their own, such as heavy equipment operators, and most are part of the IAM. Next time you are at the airport go to a gate where they are loading a 747 then tell me it takes no skill and those guys incur no liability. Don't be an another arrogant pilot, we have enough of those in our profession as it is.

 

[AirCobra]

How about baseball.... you've struck out more times on this thread. You refuse to attend batting practice, and somehow find the arrogance to keep stepping into the batters box without yielding a better result.


Your ego is the food. You just can't let it go... so you've trapped yourself on this thread.... constantly holding onto your ego.


If you want to talk issues let's do that... I am still waiting for you to discuss the leverage and coercion created from a labor alliance within a company. Also, I am waiting for you to discuss radical change at ALPA. What that is and how it gets done.


Or you can keep sniping with personal attacks...

Okay then comment on Mike or Lear's post. Do you think your fellow union workers are just a bunch unskilled rubes and meaningless to the airline compared to us Supermen pilots?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Okay then comment on Mike or Lear's post. Do you think your fellow union workers are just a bunch unskilled rubes and meaningless to the airline compared to us Supermen pilots?

I am still waiting for you to discuss the leverage and coercion created from a labor alliance within a company verses a job action. Also, I am waiting for you to discuss radical change at ALPA. What that is and how it gets done.

 

[PCL_128]

Do you think your fellow union workers are just a bunch unskilled rubes and meaningless to the airline compared to us Supermen pilots?

I think the truth is somewhere in between. They are far from "highly skilled," as anyone can be trained to do that work in a relatively short period of time, unlike a position such as a pilot or mechanic, which require a great deal of training and experience. However, to say that they are "just a bunch of unskilled rubes" is also absurd, as they are obviously skilled and valuable to the business. But to compare them to pilots is asinine.

Also, your assertion that they make more than the pilots is just plain wrong. Does a ramper at the top of the longevity scale a legacy carrier make more than a regional FO? In some limited cases, yes. But does a regional ramper make more than a regional FO, or does a legacy ramper make more than a legacy FO? Of course not. You're comparing apples to donuts. As always with the radical right and the union haters, you're throwing out a bunch of red herrings.

 

[PCL_128]

I am still waiting for you to discuss the leverage and coercion created from a labor alliance within a company verses a job action. Also, I am waiting for you to discuss radical change at ALPA. What that is and how it gets done.

I think you'll be waiting a very long time. He has nothing constructive to contribute.

 

[AirCobra]

I am still waiting for you to discuss the leverage and coercion created from a labor alliance within a company verses a job action. Also, I am waiting for you to discuss radical change at ALPA. What that is and how it gets done.

Since my opinion is meaningless then focus on why Air Wisconsin's MEC is doing at least partly what I suggested.

Give me your analysis of the last three strikes (United, Northwest, Comair), where are those airlines now?

Why are you saying job actions are effective and then saying its all meaningless because someone will always come along and undercut you? You are schizophrenic.

 

[pilotyip]

missed the point

I strongly disagree with this assertion, also. I've flown with WAY too many F/O's who will NEVER upgrade and have NO business being in this industry, but got here because it's their second career or mommy and daddy had enough money to get them through the flight schools that were, arguably, PAID to get them to a passing level.O.

Remember I said skill and desire. Maybe they don't have both, did not have had the skill to be good, they should not be in the business. BTW Who gets hires also has little to do with skill and desire, it about the "luck" of being in the right place at the right time.

 

[AirCobra]

I think the truth is somewhere in between. They are far from "highly skilled," as anyone can be trained to do that work in a relatively short period of time, unlike a position such as a pilot or mechanic, which require a great deal of training and experience. However, to say that they are "just a bunch of unskilled rubes" is also absurd, as they are obviously skilled and valuable to the business. But to compare them to pilots is asinine.

Also, your assertion that they make more than the pilots is just plain wrong. Does a ramper at the top of the longevity scale a legacy carrier make more than a regional FO? In some limited cases, yes. But does a regional ramper make more than a regional FO, or does a legacy ramper make more than a legacy FO? Of course not. You're comparing apples to donuts. As always with the radical right and the union haters, you're throwing out a bunch of red herrings.

Yes a senior legacy ramper makes more than a junior legacy FO. Not to mention there are plenty of legacy FO's on furlough so they are making less than everybody who is actually working.

Please explain how asking somone not to diminsh the contributions and skill of other labor groups makes me a union hater? I did not throw out the red herring, re-read Mikes post. Do-nothing CSR's, unskilled $6.50 an hour rampers. Those are not my words.

 

[pilotyip]

Why?

This is typical management propaganda that only the slow and dimwitted will believe. There isn't a union in existence that makes its arguments for pay raises based on what some other craft and class is getting paid. Arguments are always made based on what peers are making at other carriers.

Why did ramp workers at UAL make $60K, why did reservations agents make $50K?

 

[AirCobra]

I think you'll be waiting a very long time. He has nothing constructive to contribute.

I asked you to comment on Air Wisconsin, since what they are doing was what i was suggesting . All I got was ALPA's been doing it a long time. Well why does it work or why doesn't it? Why will Air Wisconsin be different or not?

Watching you an Rez flailing around is sad. I have asked you twice and Rez three times about Air Wisconsin, neither of you will discuss it and then you ask me what are my suggestions. Well HELLO! My suggestion is what Air Wisconsin did. If you don't want to talk about my suggestion, why then do you keep asking me?

I think I know exactly what it is now. It's all personal. If you say what Air Wisconsin did was wrong or won't work, you are going against ALPA and AW's MEC, if you say Air Wisconsin is right and its a good plan, then that demonstrates there is merit in what I said and you would be agreeing with me, well we can't have that can we? It would make the two of you look bad.

So my points remain and they are the same for the last 20 posts: Unity in labor groups may be an avenue we want to explore further, the last three strikes weakened the airlines involved with them so I don't think we should continue down that road with Spirit, and the radical change is coming up with something other than more strikes. You have yet to provide any opinion on Air Wisconsin or evidence that the last three strikes made ALPA stronger. That is what I am waiting for. Stick your personal opinions about me up your @rse and just discuss the F'in topic if you want, but if you want to discuss Republicans, monkeys, bowling, and baseball, then who really has nothing constructive to offer?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Since my opinion is meaningless

I don't know if it is meaningless... you've refused to offer it.

then focus on why Air Wisconsin's MEC is doing at least partly what I suggested.

Got it... you refuse to back up your assertions and then tell me to opine on something you brought up. I am asking you to back up what you've said, not what I said.

Give me your analysis of the last three strikes (United, Northwest, Comair), where are those airlines now?

Again. I didn't bring up these strikes. You did.

Why are you saying job actions are effective and then saying its all meaningless because someone will always come along and undercut you? You are schizophrenic.

Back to the personal attacks. The undercutting is limited by a CBA. Something that you are fundamentally against as a free marketeer.

So again... you brought up that labor coalitions in house are more effective that a job action. I ask you to expand. You cannot. Strike 1.

I ask you to expand on what you brought up as needed.... a radical shift at ALPA and how. You cannot. Strike 2.

Then you proceed to bait me into engaging in topics that you bring up so you don't have to actually justify your misguided thoughts. Strike 3. You're out.

But again... you can't let go of the banana in the jar...... meaning.. you'll be back.... keep lofting in those underhand pitches and I'll keep hitting them out of the park.... your ego won't let you stop.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why did ramp workers at UAL make $60K, why did reservations agents make $50K?

Why did managment make millions when they should have 'stolen' 100,000s?