If/When Spirit Strikes

[AirCobra]

Well Just one more thing

Fail. First off, you are creeping me out. Stand down. I like girls. I hope you do to. Those guys are haters that offfer no solutions. I am still waiting for your ALPA improvement plan. Let's hear it... let's see what you got...

Sorry guys but I think this is too imporatant if people like Rez are working for us. This is why you should never listen to him. Contrast this old quote of his with all his quotes in this thread about change not being the answer, democracy not about being radical, its managements fault, and changing corporate culture is not a solution it must come from CapHill, etc. Well he sure didn't think that about United.

If UAL would break the mold and get their employees to increase prodcutivity like SWA does, it would have an edge... until the rest of the legact carrier cought up. A radical culture shift no doubt...

Rez you lost the debate because, more importantly, you have lost sight of those who you are supposed to be representing. All the guys I named "haters", well what about the dozens of others who's names I didn't list? All those that speak out against ALPA "management stooges"? This is how you treat your brothers, that if you are in ALPA leadership, you are supposed to be working for? Instead of more frothing at the mouth defense of ALPA and telling me to look at porn, why don't you do some self reflection?

Nothing creepy about what I have done. If you are in ALPA's leadership, and you are working for the interests of pilots, and on all the committees, and making all these resolutions, I have every right to know what our leadership is about. I assumed if you are making all these posts it must be because you want to be heard. What I have discovered is that you are self righteous, petty, insulting, accusatory, talk out of both sides of you mouth, and could really care less about any of you brothers, its all about your vision of ALPA, not anyone else's. You also toss about plenty of unsubstantiated accusations like the one about activated military reservists, so add to the list open blatant and open prejudice against groups you don't like (military, religious, Republican, anyone who doesn't agree with you about anything). Well we don't need that kind of leadership.

I am doing you a favor. It's all anonymous, I don't know you personally, and you have not been publicly embarrassed in any way because no one knows who you are. Use my comments and those of the rest of us "haters" to remember what you are supposed to be doing as part of ALPA's leadership. You even find it necessary to ridicule words of support I offered for Mike. Good God man is right! You are a petty little man.

Leadership in ALPA is not cheerleading and personal attacks. The people come before the organization and you have lost sight of that.

 

[AirCobra]

Originally Posted by AirCobra
"I had a grievence filed against me by the IAM for taking a bag off the jetway and bringing it downstairs. How is that for experience?"

After reading this, I would think you would have had enough experience NOT to touch that bag in the first place. Let's paint a vision of how this could go...

Here comes AirCobra trying to "help out" by bringing a bag from the jetway down the steps to the ramp. If Management had enough personnel to work the flight, this would never had happened, but Management understaffs the airline to make the numbers look good for their main objective - their bonuses.

First mistake: That's not your job just as you wouldn't like it if some ramper came up to the flight deck and attempted to pre-flight the aircraft if you were running late so that your company could get the all-so-important On Time departure.

As AirCobra is walking down the jetway steps with the bag he is not supposed to be carrying...he slips, falls down the rest of the steps and incurs an injury, an OJI to be exact. He goes to the hospital and then calls Management to report it assuming that Management will take care of him.

Second Mistake: Management replies: sorry AirCobra, that does not qualify as an OJI because you were doing something "outside of your job description". So sorry. Have a nice day.

I don't know what plane of existance you live on at your company, but THIS is what happens in the real world.

Well the United wasn't understaffed at the time. We were the most overstaffed airline in the business and our rampers were the highest paid. They had a really great contract back then. It was a gravy train that soon crashed.

First point is just silly. I can carry a bag down stairs, a ramp guy can't pre-flight the plane. A late departure could screw a lot of other guys. I tried to work within the system as long as I could. So who do you think its better to screw; a notional principle that taking a bag downstairs will take someone's job away (keeping in mind other IAM contracts don't have this provision, I asked), or to directly screw the next crew to take my aircraft, not to mention those trying to get connecting flights, including several airline employees.

Second point: Silly also and totally untrue. Workman's comp is pretty liberal.

Last point the plane of existence I live on is based in reality. When we are talking about that which is theoretical we work within that system until it no longer becomes viable because of reality. For example: if a bag was sitting where someone could trip over it, theoretically you are not supposed to touch a bag because it is taking someone's job away, but if someone is about to trip over that bag, do you move it? Of course you do, the real trumps the theoretical.

Well theoretically in my case what if we were really late, and the next crew wound up having their day extended and were really fatigued then crashed? All because we waited for someone to come and move that bag off the jetway. How is that any less valid than the IAM's assertion?

Honestly in the real world you would probably do the same thing as I did and probably have, just nobody decided to file a grievance against you, because pilots did it, CS did it FA's did it, and even rampers would ask for help occasionally, like with electric wheelchairs.

So what is your point? Next time don't help with the wheelchair, let someone trip over a bag, screw the next crew so they may become fatigued and crash, make sure everyone misses their connecting flights, make sure some ailine employees don't get home that day, and commuting pilots don't make their trips, all for notional protection of a contract provision? This is what you do in the REAL world?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

AC-

Let's get back to the issues.

First. The Spirit pilots are willing to take to the mat (strike) to get a fair CBA for themselves. You disagree. Strikes are business warfare. You are more than willing to travel to foreign lands to engage in warfare, but when it comes to the same fighting spirit within the US CFR, you stand down. You offered your reasoning and opinions as to why the Spirit pilots should stand down and you were voted off the island. You attempted influence, it failed and now you are in ego preservation. The Spirit pilots are willing to strike, it is their house, their rules, their culture.

Finally, ALPA in general. List one to three problems of ALPA on any level and we'll discuss the issues.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well the United wasn't understaffed at the time. We were the most overstaffed airline in the business and our rampers were the highest paid. They had a really great contract back then. It was a gravy train that soon crashed.

So if they were overstaffed why would you hump the bag? Either way you are skewing the performance numbers. On principle if you do undocumented work, management looks at the numbers and says we have too many rampers, let some go.

Either way, it simply isn't your job, not your responsibility. Now, the classic response is. "its not my job is a poor attitude and work ethic". Yet it is not your responsibility to, under your own accord, to take on someone else's responsibility. This is performance welfare. Management loves it.

First point is just silly. I can carry a bag down stairs, a ramp guy can't pre-flight the plane.

That is why the IAM defines the work to their own members, because guys like you will do it. It sets a preceedent that mgmnt will exploit. The camels nose under the tent. But more importantly, if management can get anyone to do it, they will. I've seen middle and upper management on many flights and I've never seen them hump a bag. To be forthright, they always appeared that it was beneath them.

A late departure could screw a lot of other guys.

Not your responsibility. What other parts of the operation are you willing to to jump up and be johhny on the spot for? catering? Lav cleaning? cabin cleaning.... Why are any of these different? All of this is honorable work done by people who are just trying to scrape by on a meager existence and along comes you in your crisp, clean uniform ready to beat them down another rung, by gladly doing their job for free....

I tried to work within the system as long as I could.

It isn't hard. Follow the COM and AOM, FARs, CFR, and CBA.

So who do you think its better to screw; a notional principle that taking a bag downstairs will take someone's job away (keeping in mind other IAM contracts don't have this provision, I asked),

It is not a notional principle. It is fundamental. At one of my regionals we'd have this debate ad nauseum. At one point a pilot washed a RJ windshield. The company wrote it up in the flight ops newsletter as this pilot was being a good guy, all things wonderful. He was slammed and personally embarrassed. Used by mgmt.

You are not management.

It doesn't matter if other IAM contracts don't have this provision. If you get pulled over by a cop do you tell him that another towns laws are different?

or to directly screw the next crew to take my aircraft, not to mention those trying to get connecting flights, including several airline employees.

The next crew isn't expecting or hoping that you'll hump bags. They know the system is dependant on good management, not johhny on the spot.

Second point: Silly also and totally untrue. Workman's comp is pretty liberal.

As an elected ALPA rep who worked an OJI case and discussed others with our CA, you are wrong.

Last point the plane of existence I live on is based in reality. When we are talking about that which is theoretical we work within that system until it no longer becomes viable because of reality. For example: if a bag was sitting where someone could trip over it, theoretically you are not supposed to touch a bag because it is taking someone's job away, but if someone is about to trip over that bag, do you move it? Of course you do, the real trumps the theoretical.

Catastrophic failure. I've a soft spot for moms traveling with kids alone. I do whatever I can to help. Moving a bag to prevent personal injury and violating a labor contract is not valid. Personal injury and on time are not the same.

Well theoretically in my case what if we were really late

, or even worse.. what if you were like really, really late?

and the next crew wound up having their day extended and were really fatigued then crashed? All because we waited for someone to come and move that bag off the jetway. How is that any less valid than the IAM's assertion?

Then document it!!! These problems won't get fixed when you act autonomously. Management looks at numbers. Data. You are skewing the data. They don't see the problem because you mask it.

If you insist on humping bags and cleaning lavs then you must document it to show where the weaknesses are in the system!

Help the crew that got extended by giving them the facts so they can also file a report.

Honestly in the real world you would probably do the same thing as I did and probably have, just nobody decided to file a grievance against you, because pilots did it, CS did it FA's did it, and even rampers would ask for help occasionally, like with electric wheelchairs.

Denial and personal justification don't work here. You were a professional pilot, and expected to behave accordingly. What you are saying here is, as the older kid: well the younger kids were doing it too!

So what is your point? Next time don't help with the wheelchair,

Nope. I recall waiting with a family member whose wife was in a wheelchair. The man stated he used to get angry but now just accepts it. Airlines have contracted out wheelchair service to the lowest bidder (your capitalism at its best...) It is the airlines responsibility. Not yours. If they truely want good WC service they'd do it. I am sure Glenn's bonus for raping pilot pay and pensions would fix the wheelchair problem.

let someone trip over a bag,

Be a big boy and move the bag. It is ok.

screw the next crew so they may become fatigued and crash,

Suddenly you are responsible for another crews professional assessment to determine their own state of fatigue? Who is responsible for determining your fatigue status? A guy just like you on an earlier flight who is johnny on the the spot humping bags?

make sure everyone misses their connecting flights,

Show me in the FOM or CBA that you are responsible for everyone catching their connecting flights.

make sure some ailine employees don't get home that day,

Are you going to drive them home?

and commuting pilots don't make their trips,

Commuting pilots know the reality of commuting. They are prepared to go the the crashpad or get a hotel. What they probably don't like is pilots working for free and masking mgmnt incompetence.

all for notional protection of a contract provision? This is what you do in the REAL world?

You describe it as notional when it is fundamental. At a minimal it is codified federal law. So what you are advocating is breaking federal law.


I doubt you've ever functioned as a Part 121 PIC? I don't want my FOs bouncing out of the cockpit to hump bags. I want them in their seat, relaxed and ready to do their job. If they have 5 mons to hump bags then they have 5 mins to go to to the back end and run a little C/L/R with the FAs. In addition, if something comes up critical to flight safety I want them there so I don't have to explain it to them and get them up to speed when they come back from bag humping. The most critical part of SA is knowing whats happened. Also, if something comes up and the captain has to leave the flight deck it is awkward because no else is there because you gotta be johnny on the spot, humping bags.

The last thing I want is a pax telling me to go hump bags all because someone like you set an example. "well the United guy took my bag down so we could leave on time... why wont you?"

Professional pilots do not hump bags, clean lavs or other clearly defined job descriptions of other employees. It degrades the profession and motivates management to get us to devalue ourselves. Have some self respect.

 

[AirCobra]

AC-

Let's get back to the issues.

First. The Spirit pilots are willing to take to the mat (strike) to get a fair CBA for themselves. You disagree. Strikes are business warfare. You are more than willing to travel to foreign lands to engage in warfare, but when it comes to the same fighting spirit within the US CFR, you stand down. You offered your reasoning and opinions as to why the Spirit pilots should stand down and you were voted off the island. You attempted influence, it failed and now you are in ego preservation. The Spirit pilots are willing to strike, it is their house, their rules, their culture.

Finally, ALPA in general. List one to three problems of ALPA on any level and we'll discuss the issues.

I think what I said about Spirit applies across the board just like what you said about United and Southwest. A radical culture shift is what you mentioned. I also accept that the leadership of ALPA is not very receptive to radical culture shifts. I don't accept that anyone who expresses an opposing viewpoints should be shouted down or ridiculed. Being adaptive to situations, analyzing, and learning from our mistakes, is something I believe is sorely lacking in our organization. We need to strengthen the organization so it is ready and equipped to take on big issues like changing CFR's. To use your analogy changing government is the war, but to win the war we have to win some battles first, and we are not going to win battles unless we adapt to the current environment.

Look how the laws have been changed in favor of corporations over the past decade. But ALPA doesn't want to operate in the new environment, they want to operate in the old one. So you talk about changing CFR's and Washington back to make it so ALPA can work like it used to. Well what do we do in the meantime? What have we done to adapt to the current environment? Are strikes still the most effective type of business warfare in this environment? That is all I was talking about with Spirit, a united front that spans the entire company, not a united front of pilots from other airlines. I don't think management cares what that Canadian Metroliner pilots are on Spirit's side because they can't exert pressure like a combined effort of employee groups within a single company can given the way laws are now. I know you had opinions why that won't work and I appreciate that. Well then I would like hear what others have, but I don't because if you say you need change, it also means admitting that you have made mistakes, and we have become very resistant to doing that. How is it ego preservation to say "hey we screwed up, lets fix it"?

Rez you lost a great opportunity. If you are ALPA leadership you had an anonymous forum to discuss peoples concerns with our organization, maybe from people that otherwise would be too afraid to speak in public. You could have been listening all these years and trying to understand other points of view and tried to be open to other ideas. Instead you squandered that goodwill in a torrent of personal attacks, insults, and defense of ALPA against criticism at all costs. What you said to that Fed Ex guy was reprehensible, and you have made some pretty obscene accusations against people who honorably serve their country. How do you think that makes the rank and file feel about their leadership? It turns people off to get insulted, even anonymously and I am sure a lot of stopped discussing anything with you out of frustration. I think you are like a politician that has lost touch with their constituents. You have lost your way. Well hopefully you can reflect and try to get back on track. You will be able better serve us and our organization if you do.

 

[pilotyip]

aircobra keep up the good work, you got rez so busy she can not post anywhere else.

 

[AirCobra]

So if they were overstaffed why would you hump the bag? Either way you are skewing the performance numbers. On principle if you do undocumented work, management looks at the numbers and says we have too many rampers, let some go.

Either way, it simply isn't your job, not your responsibility. Now, the classic response is. "its not my job is a poor attitude and work ethic". Yet it is not your responsibility to, under your own accord, to take on someone else's responsibility. This is performance welfare. Management loves it.

That is why the IAM defines the work to their own members, because guys like you will do it. It sets a preceedent that mgmnt will exploit. The camels nose under the tent. But more importantly, if management can get anyone to do it, they will. I've seen middle and upper management on many flights and I've never seen them hump a bag. To be forthright, they always appeared that it was beneath them.


Not your responsibility. What other parts of the operation are you willing to to jump up and be johhny on the spot for? catering? Lav cleaning? cabin cleaning.... Why are any of these different? All of this is honorable work done by people who are just trying to scrape by on a meager existence and along comes you in your crisp, clean uniform ready to beat them down another rung, by gladly doing their job for free....

It isn't hard. Follow the COM and AOM, FARs, CFR, and CBA.

It is not a notional principle. It is fundamental. At one of my regionals we'd have this debate ad nauseum. At one point a pilot washed a RJ windshield. The company wrote it up in the flight ops newsletter as this pilot was being a good guy, all things wonderful. He was slammed and personally embarrassed. Used by mgmt.

You are not management.

It doesn't matter if other IAM contracts don't have this provision. If you get pulled over by a cop do you tell him that another towns laws are different?


The next crew isn't expecting or hoping that you'll hump bags. They know the system is dependant on good management, not johhny on the spot.

As an elected ALPA rep who worked an OJI case and discussed others with our CA, you are wrong.

Catastrophic failure. I've a soft spot for moms traveling with kids alone. I do whatever I can to help. Moving a bag to prevent personal injury and violating a labor contract is not valid. Personal injury and on time are not the same.

, or even worse.. what if you were like really, really late?


Then document it!!! These problems won't get fixed when you act autonomously. Management looks at numbers. Data. You are skewing the data. They don't see the problem because you mask it.

If you insist on humping bags and cleaning lavs then you must document it to show where the weaknesses are in the system!

Help the crew that got extended by giving them the facts so they can also file a report.

Denial and personal justification don't work here. You were a professional pilot, and expected to behave accordingly. What you are saying here is, as the older kid: well the younger kids were doing it too!


Nope. I recall waiting with a family member whose wife was in a wheelchair. The man stated he used to get angry but now just accepts it. Airlines have contracted out wheelchair service to the lowest bidder (your capitalism at its best...) It is the airlines responsibility. Not yours. If they truely want good WC service they'd do it. I am sure Glenn's bonus for raping pilot pay and pensions would fix the wheelchair problem.


Be a big boy and move the bag. It is ok.


Suddenly you are responsible for another crews professional assessment to determine their own state of fatigue? Who is responsible for determining your fatigue status? A guy just like you on an earlier flight who is johnny on the the spot humping bags?


Show me in the FOM or CBA that you are responsible for everyone catching their connecting flights.


Are you going to drive them home?


Commuting pilots know the reality of commuting. They are prepared to go the the crashpad or get a hotel. What they probably don't like is pilots working for free and masking mgmnt incompetence.

You describe it as notional when it is fundamental. At a minimal it is codified federal law. So what you are advocating is breaking federal law.


I doubt you've ever functioned as a Part 121 PIC? I don't want my FOs bouncing out of the cockpit to hump bags. I want them in their seat, relaxed and ready to do their job. If they have 5 mons to hump bags then they have 5 mins to go to to the back end and run a little C/L/R with the FAs. In addition, if something comes up critical to flight safety I want them there so I don't have to explain it to them and get them up to speed when they come back from bag humping. The most critical part of SA is knowing whats happened. Also, if something comes up and the captain has to leave the flight deck it is awkward because no else is there because you gotta be johnny on the spot, humping bags.

Professional pilots do not hump bags, clean lavs or other clearly defined job descriptions of other employees. It degrades the profession and motivates management to get us to devalue ourselves. Have some self respect.

Rez why did you waste your time? You have done the same sort of thing to get out on time at one time or another, everyone has, and you will move a bag out of the way if someone is going to trip and fall. Please spare me self righteous lying. BTW I was an FE, so I don't think the Captain probably even cared if I was there or not.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I think what I said about Spirit applies across the board just like what you said about United and Southwest. A radical culture shift is what you mentioned. I also accept that the leadership of ALPA is not very receptive to radical culture shifts.

What specifically do you suggest is a radical cultural shift?

I don't accept that anyone who expresses an opposing viewpoints should be shouted down or ridiculed.

Agreed. Yet this is what you do to be on other political issues. You refuse to address the issue and resort to name calling a labeling.

In addition, opposing viewpoints have to have merit, credibility and traction. You can't simply make broad brush claims that "ALPA should just ______." And then claim ALPA is messed up because someone else didn't implement.

Being adaptive to situations, analyzing, and learning from our mistakes, is something I believe is sorely lacking in our organization. We need to strengthen the organization so it is ready and equipped to take on big issues like changing CFR's.

Ok... good... how exactly should we be adaptive? What should we do exactly?

In addition, changing CFR, like you suggest is all about CapHill. When I asked you how much you give to ALPA PAC you sneered that you got a grievance against you from the IAM, meaning that is the best of your participation.

As an UAL pilot, you could have also given to UP-PAC. Since you just suggested that we take on big issues like changing CFRs did you give to ALPA and UP PAC?

To use your analogy changing government is the war, but to win the war we have to win some battles first, and we are not going to win battles unless we adapt to the current environment.

Agreed. HOW? it is all about the HOW.

Look how the laws have been changed in favor of corporations over the past decade. But ALPA doesn't want to operate in the new environment, they want to operate in the old one. So you talk about changing CFR's and Washington back to make it so ALPA can work like it used to. Well what do we do in the meantime? What have we done to adapt to the current environment?

What odes this mean? The old and new? Explain what this old and new is? I don't get your understanding of this....

Are strikes still the most effective type of business warfare in this environment?

Yes. If you disagree, then state way.

That is all I was talking about with Spirit, a united front that spans the entire company, not a united front of pilots from other airlines.

And I told you that when you align with other employee groups they can drag you down. Look ALPA might seem weak but compared to other unions ALPA is pretty good.

But what you are talking about is getting other employee groups to honor your picket line. Look, a united front with other groups is fine, but if there is no coercion it doesn't matter. That coercion is a strike. If you have a better idea let's hear it.

I don't think management cares what that Canadian Metroliner pilots are on Spirit's side because they can't exert pressure like a combined effort of employee groups within a single company can given the way laws are now. I know you had opinions why that won't work and I appreciate that. Well then I would like hear what others have, but I don't because if you say you need change, it also means admitting that you have made mistakes, and we have become very resistant to doing that. How is it ego preservation to say "hey we screwed up, lets fix it"?

The only thing that makes a company change is govt laws and intervention and group unity. The govt laws and intervention are the RLA and a strike. The group unity is leadership. It is nice that you got the rampers support, but that is symbolic unless it is a quid pro quo for them.

Rez you lost a great opportunity. If you are ALPA leadership you had an anonymous forum to discuss peoples concerns with our organization, maybe from people that otherwise would be too afraid to speak in public. You could have been listening all these years and trying to understand other points of view and tried to be open to other ideas. Instead you squandered that goodwill in a torrent of personal attacks, insults, and defense of ALPA against criticism at all costs.

Negative. The guys that you've associated yourself with are haters. Again you are trying to legitimize them because they are the anti-ALPA crowd. But that doesn't mean logic and reason should be thrown out the window to accommodate stupidity, hatred and obstructionism.

What you said to that Fed Ex guy was reprehensible,

I thought we were talking about the issues. Now you are back to attacks.

and you have made some pretty obscene accusations against people who honorably serve their country.

So much for the issues.

How do you think that makes the rank and file feel about their leadership?
It turns people off to get insulted, even anonymously and I am sure a lot of stopped discussing anything with you out of frustration.

That is because they get frustrated because they have poor expectations, expect radical change, expect others to do the heavy lifting.

I think you are like a politician that has lost touch with their constituents. You have lost your way. Well hopefully you can reflect and try to get back on track. You will be able better serve us and our organization if you do.

Now that you are done, let's get back to the issues....

Three direct replies here:

You've stated that you think Spirit pilots should not use the strike route, not seek out support from non-Spirit pilot groups and form alliances and coalitions with other Spirit labor groups. Ok, fine... where is the coercion or influence in this game plan to get mgmnt to negotiate fairly and timely?

In addition you stated a radical cultural shift in ALPA? What exactly do you mean by this? and HOW will it get done?

You also stated that changing the CFR and the old and new ways. But you have yet to state that you participate in ALPA or UP PAC. Why? And if you won't do the PAC how do you expect ALPA to change CFRs?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez why did you waste your time?

Because other pilots will read this and need to consider the implications.

You have done the same sort of thing to get out on time at one time or another, everyone has,

Have some integrity and honor. Everyone else has done it is an excuse for the weak.

and you will move a bag out of the way if someone is going to trip and fall.

I stated that you should move the bag if you feel it is an injury situation, but that it is fundamentally different that breaking federal law that is codified in a labor contract. Why do insist on being special and exempting yourself from the law?

Please spare me self righteous lying.

Back on the personal attacks?

BTW I was an FE, so I don't think the Captain probably even cared if I was there or not.

So now you speak for the Captain?

 

[Mamma]

From Rez:

I am tired of MIL guys showing with with their pensions and health bennies and not giving a damm about their fellow pilots who are trying to make it better for them. The MIL guys deserve their bennies, but they also are expected to support their fellow pilots in an effort to gain a fair and reasonable contract for themselves and their family.

Rez, once again you swing for the bleachers and strike out. YGBFSM with this remark. I was enjoying the back and forth until you crammed your head up your a$$ and farted this gem out. I would venture to guess that a very large percentage of airline pilots have a military history and a very very large percentage of them are not collecting a pension or health bennies. You see, they got out or are reservists. I don't know of any military pilots who do not support their fellow pilots. In fact, I would venture to guess the majority of mil pilots support their fellow pilots because that is what we do...watch each other's back. In fact, I personally know of three pilots (there are more) at Alaska Airlines that are still working because mil pilots opted to go on orders to keep them on property. They opted to go fly to war instead of letting the company throw more pilots on the street.

We have engaged on the military issue in the past and you came up WAY short in your knowledge of the military and the people who serve. Maybe in the future you could just shut your pie-hole on this issue. Your conspiracy theories and anti-military blather are getting old.

Now back to the rant.....