If/When Spirit Strikes

[Mamma]

Sorry for the misunderstanding on your intentions. I was not trying to say you have a negative view of military guys but that you were incorrect in that mil guys would throw the group under the bus because they are covered. I don't know anyone who thinks that way. Rez says he talked to a couple that would, but they are in a huge minority. I actually hold company health insurance as do many of my mil friends so I do have a dog in the fight. When I am just a normal reservist, the company plan is my primary plan. Probably for the same reason most airline pilots don't use their FAA doc for routine medical care. Many reservists also commute to their unit and do not live by a military medical facility. Last, I think if we excluded those with plans it is dividing the group because health care is a negotiated benefit that everyone pays for in one way or another. I don't like creating divisions because the company always finds a way to exploit them.

 

[AirCobra]

You would have to go back to Rez's original post. His contention was that new hire Fed Ex guys that were also military reservists needed to be monitored. I guess he has some heartburn with new hires getting activated for several month stints and thus perhaps avoiding sitting reserve or avoiding too much time as FE and being able to bid FO upon their return. Mamma is 100% right. Go to baseops.net and look at the employment adds for Reserve units. Virtually all say expect to be gone on extended trips or to put in a lot more than 2 days a month. Rez is wrong because he is trying to cast suspicion on someone solely because of their military status, not because of any act they have committed. He can think whatever he wants about who drove down pay for pilots like blaming retired military guys, all the while flying for a regional that is soaking up mainline flying, so PCL is right and that may be a matter of opinion between us. But telling people to be on the lookout, or to more closely examine any new hire that is also a reservist when you have no indication they have done anything wrong, well that is not just a difference of opinion, I believe that violates ALPA's code of ethics.

 

[AirCobra]

Still waiting:

How is a labor coalition better than a strike?

What is this radical shift needed in ALPA and how do you get it done?

I told you why. You told me why you don't think it is. Do you think the MEC at Air Wisconsin is wrong or misguided, or do you think a coalition will work at AW and not at Spirit?

Let me ask you something else. Do you think wages can be driven up by enough people leaving that a company can get anyone to fly for them so they have to pay more to attract and keep people. That is how the military has worked, and corporations too. Do you think that can be effective as a strike? Like what if United did its $31 an hour recall in 2006 and not just 20 or 30% didn't take the recall, but no one did. Now if my ALPA brothers at (name of airline here) Express weren't willing to swoop in and take all those jobs form guys that turned down recall, do you think United would have been forced to offer more money to get people to come back and stay?

 

[Lear70]

Sorry for the misunderstanding on your intentions. I was not trying to say you have a negative view of military guys but that you were incorrect in that mil guys would throw the group under the bus because they are covered.

I certainly never meant that at all... I wasn't thinking that they would "throw the other side under the bus", but that their input in Wilson Polling just speaking for their own situation without any ill intent might skew the data.

I don't know anyone who thinks that way. Rez says he talked to a couple that would, but they are in a huge minority. I actually hold company health insurance as do many of my mil friends so I do have a dog in the fight. When I am just a normal reservist, the company plan is my primary plan. Probably for the same reason most airline pilots don't use their FAA doc for routine medical care. Many reservists also commute to their unit and do not live by a military medical facility. Last, I think if we excluded those with plans it is dividing the group because health care is a negotiated benefit that everyone pays for in one way or another. I don't like creating divisions because the company always finds a way to exploit them.

All good points, and something for me to ponder... Always open to the other side of the issue, I've just had a mil guy or two make comments about "not giving a damn about insurance because I get mine through the military, I care about pay", etc. While I know they're likely not the majority, that's what put me in that frame of mind...

And I agree, ANY division is exploitable, and that doesn't help us at ALL, especially now. Sorry to have initially sounded that way, didn't intend to. Dangers of the message board, once again. :beer:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sure some game the system but just look around to see why. When times are good at the airlines, reserve units post huge vacancies. They run short of pilots because nobody wants to do the difficult work of flying mil planes for less money. It takes a considerable amount of time to stay proficient and current in a C-17 or fighter aircraft and the vacation hot spots are less than desireable. .

You prove the point.....

So the MIL guys, when times are good at the airlines don't pull guard duty.... supply/demand? Simply put their needs are met, however, when the times are tough, then the guard unit is well staffed. So what motivates a MIL pilot?

The point is... when you are in new hire class, living off of credit cards and hanging with the FAs because they know how to make Top Ramen 30 different ways.... with the wife wondering WTF are you doing and the discussion of low wages and no healthcare till you pass your checkride or 6 months into employment..... and a MIL guy with retirement, health, etc... says... ______________.

either you like Tap Ramen or you don't......


It is all about whether your needs are met....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I told you why. You told me why you don't think it is. Do you think the MEC at Air Wisconsin is wrong or misguided, or do you think a coalition will work at AW and not at Spirit?

Where is the leverage. The coercion?

Let me ask you something else. Do you think wages can be driven up by enough people leaving that a company can get anyone to fly for them so they have to pay more to attract and keep people.

no

That is how the military has worked, and corporations too.

That is how certain markets work

Do you think that can be effective as a strike? Like what if United did its $31 an hour recall in 2006 and not just 20 or 30% didn't take the recall, but no one did.

Regional Capts would be the new hires just like they were in 2007-08

Now if my ALPA brothers at (name of airline here) Express weren't willing to swoop in and take all those jobs form guys that turned down recall, do you think United would have been forced to offer more money to get people to come back and stay?

(not sure you have an "brothers" at ALPA) Would never work this way..... Once the furloughed pilots refused the work and the "free market" had a freak anomaly as you described, UAL would simply tweak the terms for the new hires. The furloughees would never get a second chance after they declined recall IAW the CBA. Recall management loves first year pay.

Look, you are an adorer of the free market. Don't get pissed or disappointed because UAL is nothing for you to come back to.... the "free market" is all about cheaper cost. There is always someone willing to do your job cheaper".

The question becomes... are you to be a subservient sycophant who takes what master gives... or are you willing to stand up for yourself and make your place of income not only better for yourself, but for the guy coming in after you in new hire class.

 

[Mamma]

You prove the point.....

So the MIL guys, when times are good at the airlines don't pull guard duty.... supply/demand? Simply put their needs are met, however, when the times are tough, then the guard unit is well staffed. So what motivates a MIL pilot?

The point is... when you are in new hire class, living off of credit cards and hanging with the FAs because they know how to make Top Ramen 30 different ways.... with the wife wondering WTF are you doing and the discussion of low wages and no healthcare till you pass your checkride or 6 months into employment..... and a MIL guy with retirement, health, etc... says... ______________.

either you like Tap Ramen or you don't......


It is all about whether your needs are met....

What point is it that I proved? Certainly not your point that MIL guys in general would throw everyone else under the bus because they have health care. I have shown you that not all mil guys have health care; many mil guys use the company plan; mil guys are more prone to stick up for the group because we have an instilled sense of loyalty; many non-mil guys have wives who have insurance; and no one sect of the pilot group holds a monopoly on being a$$holes. It sounds like you just want to pigeon-hole an entire group of people.

As far as your first statement, maybe I was not clear for you....when times are good, a lot of mil guys quit the reserves for good. Its not that they are not drilling, its that they quit. They got tired of the hassle of holding two jobs and maintaining proficiency in two or more aircraft. Thus, no military health care. When times are bad, they stick around and with that comes drilling and active orders. Wars change things too.

What motivates the mil guy? It is different with everyone. Right now many want to serve because there are two wars going on. Many mil guys are patriotic; many like the work....doing the job as compared to always training for it; the pay is good. They also want the retirement because many are not getting one from the company anymore. Some mil guys also will take a LOA if it will keep another pilot employed. Money is another motivator. A major on active orders probably makes more than an FO at many airlines today. It is different for everyone.

As far as you eating Top Ramen, that has no bearing. That was the choice you made. You could have made the choice to go into the military, go to law school or become an architect but you chose a job that paid next to nothing in the hopes of landing a good job flying big iron. You knew the pay was piss poor going in. Then to make matters worse, you chose to get married knowing it would be even tougher and fail to educate your wife on how much it really sucks. Now she is confused and wondering why you have such a crappy job. She thought she was marrying a big shot airline pilot! Several years later, you have paid your dues and are sitting in that big shiny jet airliner but the environment has changed for the worse. Your wife is still b1tching that your pay sucks and health care is expensive. The easy thing for you to do is blame the mil guy....the root of all that is evil. We have ours so we could give a crap what happens to you and the rest of the pilot group. You are wrong on so many levels but no matter what I say, I doubt I will change your mind.

 

[pilotyip]

Worth hanging around

As far as your first statement, maybe I was not clear for you....when times are good, a lot of mil guys quit the reserves for good. Its not that they are not drilling, its that they quit. They got tired of the hassle of holding two jobs and maintaining proficiency in two or more aircraft. Thus, no military health care. When times are bad, they stick around and with that comes drilling and active orders. Wars change things too.

I might have been jumpseating on DAL with one of those guys back in the late 90's. 14 yrs service, dropped out of the reserves, said too many hassles and besides his DAL retirement made the military retirement not really worth it. I wonder if he was young enough to get back in 2002?

 

[Mike man]

...14 yrs service, dropped out of the reserves, said too many hassles and besides his DAL retirement made the military retirement not really worth it.

Oops...

 

[kwick]

I told you why. You told me why you don't think it is. Do you think the MEC at Air Wisconsin is wrong or misguided, or do you think a coalition will work at AW and not at Spirit?

Let me ask you something else. Do you think wages can be driven up by enough people leaving that a company can get anyone to fly for them so they have to pay more to attract and keep people. That is how the military has worked, and corporations too. Do you think that can be effective as a strike? Like what if United did its $31 an hour recall in 2006 and not just 20 or 30% didn't take the recall, but no one did. Now if my ALPA brothers at (name of airline here) Express weren't willing to swoop in and take all those jobs form guys that turned down recall, do you think United would have been forced to offer more money to get people to come back and stay?

You bring back memories of another ex-military, airline newbie, Andy Panzy, who used to frequent these boards with an arrogant, all-
knowing attitude.

Why don't you study your manuals, gain a little airline experience,and read
"Flying the Line" , which is about the history of airline pilot labor
relations.

You sound very naive.

 

[Mike man]

What is the answer?

What should the pilots of Spirit do?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What point is it that I proved?

That economics is #1

What motivates the mil guy?

Economics.

As far as you eating Top Ramen, that has no bearing. That was the choice you made. You could have made the choice to go into the military, go to law school or become an architect but you chose a job that paid next to nothing in the hopes of landing a good job flying big iron.
You knew the pay was piss poor going in. Then to make matters worse, you chose to get married knowing it would be even tougher and fail to educate your wife on how much it really sucks. Now she is confused and wondering why you have such a crappy job. She thought she was marrying a big shot airline pilot! Several years later, you have paid your dues and are sitting in that big shiny jet airliner but the environment has changed for the worse. Your wife is still b1tching that your pay sucks and health care is expensive. The easy thing for you to do is blame the mil guy....the root of all that is evil. We have ours so we could give a crap what happens to you and the rest of the pilot group. You are wrong on so many levels but no matter what I say, I doubt I will change your mind.

Major logical fail!
The point isn't choices made or coulda/shoulda/woulda... any career path can turn sour including the MIL. I know guys who were about to get winged and the DoD said sorry... don't need you... and dropped them like a bad case of VD.

The point of this whole thread is pilots who don't have much but are willing to bust ass and put it on the line to make it better for themselves and their families....

 

[Mamma]

The point of this whole thread is pilots who don't have much but are willing to bust ass and put it on the line to make it better for themselves and their families....

Rez, I doubt I am alone on this, but the major logical failure is with you. The point of this thread is exactly what you said above. Your failure lies in your disdain of the military and blatantly stereotyping us as selfish bastards just out for ourselves. Nobody else has faults...just the Mil guys. Thanks. We all appreciate that. I see you made a bunch of friends over on the mil board tonight by labeling them blood thirsty child killers. We appreciate that too. I tried to reason with you knowing I would fail to get through but I tried. Have a nice evening.

 

[AirCobra]

You bring back memories of another ex-military, airline newbie, Andy Panzy, who used to frequent these boards with an arrogant, all-
knowing attitude.

Why don't you study your manuals, gain a little airline experience,and read
"Flying the Line" , which is about the history of airline pilot labor
relations.

You sound very naive.

I just asked a question. How is asking a question displaying a "know it all attitude" The numbers for those refusing recall in 2006 for United were somewhere around 20-30%, and at American I understand it was no different. The sticking point at United was that guys that got furloughed in 2001 were going to get the equivalent of new hire pay when they returned, even though technically they had been with the company for five years. Sure its naive to think that if a United pilot refused recall, because they were five year employees and not willing to get paid as a new hire, some regional guy wouldn't be waiting to take the job for the $31 an hour that United offered. I understand that is reality of pilot unity in our profession.

Just pointing out the irony of those so willing to undercut other pilots when it is to their advantageyet complain about a lack of pilot unity or lecturing old timers on how to make ALPA strong.

Since we are doing Book of the Month Club I suggest you read Hard Landing, especially the part about Eastern Airlines, pre-Lorenzo.

 

[AirCobra]

Look, you are an adorer of the free market. Don't get pissed or disappointed because UAL is nothing for you to come back to.... the "free market" is all about cheaper cost. There is always someone willing to do your job cheaper".

The question becomes... are you to be a subservient sycophant who takes what master gives... or are you willing to stand up for yourself and make your place of income not only better for yourself, but for the guy coming in after you in new hire class.

Rez are you two different people writing the same post? You realize your first paragraph negates your second. If there is always going to be someone willing to do my job cheaper, then what point is there to standing up for yourself when someone will always come along and undercut me?

We already went through this a few months ago, I get "Rez's Rules". When you undercut me I deserved it, that is how free markets work. Now when someone undercuts you its an outrage and its my fault for not standing behind you.

I don't know what the point of talking to you is anyway. How can anyone who contends retired military pilots are responsible for driving down pilot wages while they themselves are flying mainline routes in an RJ for half the money can be taken seriously.