If/When Spirit Strikes

[AirCobra]

Add to the above a dislike for the APA too.

The APA? What makes them so great? The fact they put out a couple of press releases against Age 65? The 45MM action against them? Or they way they screwed the TWA pilots?

Rez looking back on your old posts concerning ALPA is fascinating. You are like the Josef Goebbels of ALPA the way you foam at the mouth and attack fellow ALPA pilots if they speak out. Not to mention pilots from other unions. It seems I am far from alone in thinking ALPA has problems, lots of them. Why are you so desperate to maintain the status quo?

John Pennekamp calls you "ALPA's biggest cheerleader" in the "What has ALAP done for me lately" thread. I think he underestimated, you are ALPA's Propaganda Minister (unsolicited I might add).

For me this one took the cake. I can't believe you said this to a FedEX guy nonetheless, given the way you get all over people when they say "if you don't like where you are working, no one is forcing you to stay there". I guess your hypocrisy is boundless and your ethics are situational.

So is your advice to Spirit guys now going to be "No one is forcing you to stay there, leave if you don't like it" :laugh:


Originally Posted by Rez O. Lewshun

You seem to have trouble grasping the concept of choice and free will.

No one forced you to accept employment at FX. and through all the changes at FX, (Flying Tigers, ALPA, FPA, ALPA) no one forced you to stay.

Yet, you seem to have issues with others...for the choices you made.


http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=108006&page=8

 

[AirCobra]

Bowing Out of this Thread

Gentlemen,
I gave you my concerns, offered what I thought would some workable solutions, and patiently waded through a lot of insults. Many of my comments about the problems ALPA has are nothing new to FI, but as usual there are a few posters on here always quick to shout others down should they question the status quo. Maybe you don't agree with anything I said, but hopefully at least it has given some of you pause or made you think.

Some poster named Joe Merchant has a very appropriate tag, it says:

ALPA: To many Rez O. Lewshuns, not enough leaders.

To me nothing could be truer. Part of the problem we all have is with ALPA's leadership. There are to many guys like Rez O. Lewshun who will pretty much question your humanity if you speak against ALPA. Hopefully his kind is a dying breed or maybe they are just the most vocal, I don't know, but I do know ALPA needs more guys like Lear 70, willing to critically analyze our mistakes and offer solutions, or UAL Driver who's posts you may have seen in other threads.

Anyway I have said all I needed to say and find I am just repeating myself. For Mike O. and the rest of the Spirit guys, I pray to God I am totally wrong and your MEC has everything under control and is acting in good faith. I wish you the best and hope you will come back in a few months and say "I told you so, management backed down and gave us what we wanted".

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You are losing the debate as shown by the fundamentals classic reversion to the Bible. God has nothing to do with this. Either you can debate intelligently on the issue or not. God can't help your ignorance. Only you can.

Rez,
Look how you are frothing at the mouth of any criticism of ALPA. I am sure you would have me tossed into a Gulag if this was the People's Republic of America you want. Please try to control yourself and learn to function in a Democracy.

So you are losing the debate quite significantly here... no agrees with you thinking sans Yip and he has left the mat. Now you are accusing me of what you are guilty of... classic debate failure...

The idea of Karma is a pretty universal concept, and has other names, like tit for tat, what goes around-comes around, reap and sow, however you want to say it. You don't understand I want to lose this debate. I want to be proven wrong. I just don't see anything different in what ALPA is saying, so why should it work this time?

Is this a threat? Some sort of mystical coercion you are trying to instill fear with me. Sorry but this is hilarious.

That is a false correlation on your part. I've gone above and beyond for the pax. I know the difference. I refuse to be a corporate tool.
I didn't think you did and I said as much. Your A to B comment was just bluster on your part. Anyone with any self respect goes above and beyond, but in doing so you are aiding the bottom line of the corporation. Oh an by the way you work for a corporation so you are a corporate tool, the only way not to be is to not work for a corporation. You are dependent on them even though you pretend you are not.

Wrong again. Your lack of effectiveness to communicate any sort of reason in this debate is showing. Again, you accuse me of what you are guilty of... classic indication of debate failure. Actually, I've gone beyond for the pax despite managements indifference to screw the pax. But again, you know not the difference between business operations and flight operations.

You need to shed your ignorance first. Seriously, you are so far removed from the labor movement and its ideals that you need to get 'trained and educated' if this is how you really believe. I think the pushback that you've gotten, not from me, but from so many on this thread is telling. Don't you? In addition, having a grievance filed against you is a bad stuff.
You are so into the labor movement you can't see what is happening outside it. You have lost the ability to assess situations outside a very narrow mindset. You are an enigma. Your thoughts about politics are supposedly progressive, and your thoughts about labor are still stuck in the 19th century. I thought the future wasn't iun the past. That is what you told me.

Again, attacks on me because your master warning is flashing debate fail. Silence the warning and take appropriate action...

No it is not. Again, from someone who has never really functioned in a democracy you demonstrate again your failure to understand. Democracy is about stability. Revolution and activists movements is about radical change. Sure they can happen within a democratic system, but democracy is not radical.
You are babbling here. I thought freedom of expression is a tennant of democracy and here you are trying to silence me and ridicule me. Now tell me again who doesn't know how to function in a democracy? Anyway, democracy can become nothing more than mob rule, and that is the very essence of what I am complaining about.

Again, total debate fail. As I've schooled you before, democracy doesn't require intelligence. You are correct that it is mob rule. We've seen the conservatives, the part of obstructionism. You have not offered anything constructive. So is the majority on this thread is supposed to change to accommodate stupid? Are you serious?

Are you serious? We have admitted our mistakes. What do you want ALPA members to be? Opus Dei? Self mutilating?
How to you expect to learn if you don't admit your mistakes? Lear listed seven points where he thinks ALPA has gone wrong, you list 0, its all just managments fault to you. I guess you think admitting mistakes is a sign of weakness. Well all you have done is resign yourself to making the same mistakes over and over again.

I was never asked to list ALPA failures. He did that on his own accord. That you are trying to show that I haven't goes back to debate fail. Anything you can do to deflect.

I know what ALPA's failures are and I am actually working to effect change. Listing ALPA's failures on this message board is only fodder for the haters who live in irresponsibility and a lack of ownership.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Everything that effects Air Line Pilots careers is determined politically. New higher regional pilots don't know this. You should.

But you are advocating that ALPA is paralyzed. What should be done to reverse this. What do you advocate? If you answer nothing else.. tell us what you think ALPA should do differently.. and how. Ideas are great but it is really the how.

Explain
I believe ALPA is ostensibly paralyzed already, you just refuse to notice. I spelled out what I thought should be done to change this in my last long post to you. I was hoping for at least intelligent disagreement, but I got what exactly what I expected a bunch of childish insults from from those that want nothing more than to maintain the status quo. Your posts stink to high heaven Rez. Shout others down, insult people, say ALPA can never admit to a mistake, say ALPA is never wrong because management may find away to use it against us. You are supposedly a leader in ALPA? And these are your attitudes? How then do you function in a supposedly democratic orgnaization?

Sorry must have missed your spelling of what should change. Will you cut and paste it? Thanks.

No you did not. In addition there are UAL pilots that want UPA. You level of understanding is weak. Just read the replies from many others on this thread.
I saw a lot of hard core union guys get turned off by the whole process who were stonewalled by ALPA and now call ALPA "Romper Room." I saw loss after loss for the pilot group while ALPA claimed victory. I saw nearly 30% of pilots refuse recall becuase many were just tired of the management AND union BS. I saw half of our domestic flying taken away by our regional airline ALPA brothers, and I got told by people like you that we got what we deserved. So what lesson should I have learned?

Do you honestly expect pilots to like ALPA paycuts and pension loss?

My new sig line.
Good lets talk about that, I let you know why I did it. We were the first flight of the day. Well you know the deal, its an accordion effect, if we get out late, then the next flight become later, and so on and so on. ATC needed to get us out right away or we could expect a 40 minute delay. We were waiting for a ramp guy to take the bags down. We waited to the last possible minute then I got up opened the door to the jetway, signaled a guy on the ground, and handed him the bags on the outside stairs of the jetway.

Why did I do it?

You did it because you are a management tool. If you did on this day, then EVERY day you'll do it. Why would you not. If you didn't get furloughed at UAL until you retired at 65, you are schlepping bags. Integrity right.... good enough on first flight of the day... good enough for all the first flights of the day for your entire career. All you are doing is subsidizing poor management. This Air Line pilot 101. But since you went right from the MIL to UAL... it took you longer to learn it.

Not only so we wouldn't be delayed and our passengers miss their connections, but so the crew that was to take our plane wouldn't get screwed maybe get their duty day elongated to the point where they couldn't make it home, or another crew wouldn't get extended or have to be called in. You know all the reasons and what can happen, I am sure.

This management suck up is embarrassing to read... you should have just kept quiet. None of this is your responsibility! This is your flawed mindset that you have to do something.. you have to fix this.... If management really wanted the jet on time, then they would do their jobs properly! Incredible!!

So I don't want screw my fellow ALPA brothers, but you don't see it way do you? I am just an evil voider of IAM contracts. Who wins when two labor groups are pitted against each other? I would say its management. So keep it as you signature line if you want. I will just post the story of how you want to screw ALPA guys so as not to void any Mickey Mouse featherbedding contract provisions of the IAM.

Good god and all things holy.... all you are doing is setting a precedent and expectation for other ALPA pilots to have to schlep bags. Air line pilots don't move bags. You probably clean the crapper at your current job!

Maybe I can add these gems to my signature line:

Originally Posted by Rez O. Lewshun
Mainline United pilots got what they deserved.

or

Retired military pilots are responsible for driving down wages.

Which do you think would be better?

When I talk to UAL pilots they state they gave scope away.

I am tired of MIL guys showing with with their pensions and health bennies and not giving a damm about their fellow pilots who are trying to make it better for them. The MIL guys deserve their bennies, but they also are expected to support their fellow pilots in an effort to gain a fair and reasonable contract for themselves and their family. So use either one, just be fair and balanced and post these two replies on the issue.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Operational decision toward what end? If your only job is to fly from A to B safely why try to get out on time? Who cares about on time. Wouldn't it be more safe operationally to slow down the tempo? Why do you try to conserve fuel in cruise, why do you shut down engines during long taxi's. You are not operationally trying to conserve fuel most of the time so you don't run out of gas and crash. You are doing it to save money.

Why would I not get out on time? becaue you are trying to twist the intent from you being a managment bag humper willing to do anyone's job to me sticking within my job description and doing it professionally?

Its seems it quite a fantasy world you have set up for yourself, he who claims not to be a corporate tool yet works at corporation after corporation. "Not me, I don't care about making money for the company, everything I do is operational" Well you keep telling yourself whatever you want so you feel better about yourself. I won't try and shatter your illusion.

No you won't try and shatter my truth, but you sure are trying damm hard. Real hard. Don't you have a hobby. Do you like girls? Because I've I am not comfortable with a guy giving me so much attention that you have on this thread. It is creepy...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Back to the Socialistworker.org catchphrases again I see. Ah the toasty warm blanket of Herr Marx and Herr Engles feels so good.

Actually the reason why you are so rabid on this thread is because of the fundamental beliefs of yours that are being threatened. You've singled me out because it is easier to make me your enemy that deal with reality...

As I told you before you are part of the Strict Father model. The patriarch ruled your house and childhood. You were told what to do, when to do it, how do to it. If you were treated unfairly, imorally or amorally, it didn't matter... you were conditioned to be thankful for what you got and how you were treated. Naturally you joined the MIL because it was basically the same paradigm.

When you joined UAL you naturally sought out the patriarch in your new provider (dare I say master) and settled in with management taking over from the MIL, telling you what, where, when, how, and why.. and that you will like it. The classic fraternity hazing scene where the Kevin Bacon character is in pain and says "thank you sir may I have another" comes to mind.

Organized Air Line pilots...or ALPA.... the Spirit pilots in this case, are bucking the Strict Patriarch model that you constantly seek out as your security blanket. It fundamentally goes against your grain.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Originally Posted by Rez O. Lewshun
Mainline United pilots got what they deserved.

Retired military pilots are responsible for driving down wages.

Holy Cow Rez,
Do you have an honest bone in your body? I should blame myself for not keeping up on every thread perhaps, but here you are treating me like some lone voice in the wilderness, and there are plenty of people that have problems with ALPA on FI. Whole threads outlining many of the same problems I have, and numerous other concerns I never mentioned from posters like Be Careful, Joe Merchant, Turtle 21, Jester, CopilotDoug and B. Franklin to name a few.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=115683

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=120405

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=109433

And low and behold what do I find? There you are on those threads with the insults, blame shifting, and talking about democracy as if the only kind of democracy is your kind of democracy. It appears you also have some problem sort of problem USAPA which was good for a chuckle and showed your immaturity with a bunch of childish "my union is better than your union" nonsense.


So its not about pilots and labor and representation really, its all about making ALPA look good. Well I am glad I know what you are all about now. I had hoped that maybe you were just a liar about politics, like it was a game or something, but obviously you seek to degrade ANYONE who disagrees with you about ANYTHING. If you have anything to do with ALPA you should bow out because you are not playing it straight. You have lost sight of what you are doing when your sole purpose has become to protect the organization. You are demonizing and marginalizing your brothers and solely to make the organization look good.

You are very misguided, recognizing mistakes, and addressing the concerns of the minority does not weaken democracy, it makes it stronger.

Fail. First off, you are creeping me out. Stand down. I like girls. I hope you do to. Those guys are haters that offfer no solutions. I am still waiting for your ALPA improvement plan. Let's hear it... let's see what you got...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Add to the above a dislike for the APA too.

There are two problems concerning the APA. One they stink as an effective union. Two, ALPA has done a poor job bringing them back.

Rez looking back on your old posts concerning ALPA is fascinating.

I've officially become your nemesis. Dude, let it go....

You are like the Josef Goebbels of ALPA the way you foam at the mouth and attack fellow ALPA pilots if they speak out. Not to mention pilots from other unions. It seems I am far from alone in thinking ALPA has problems, lots of them. Why are you so desperate to maintain the status quo?

John Pennekamp calls you "ALPA's biggest cheerleader" in the "What has ALAP done for me lately" thread. I think he underestimated, you are ALPA's Propaganda Minister (unsolicited I might add).

As I said... you don't have to be smart, intelligent or pragmatic to speak. You are assuming that what people have said about ALPA was smart, intelligent or pragmatic. For if it was, it would gain an audience.

So simply put, is you are insisting that stupid be given a platform for change.

For me this one took the cake. I can't believe you said this to a FedEX guy nonetheless, given the way you get all over people when they say "if you don't like where you are working, no one is forcing you to stay there". I guess your hypocrisy is boundless and your ethics are situational.

So is your advice to Spirit guys now going to be "No one is forcing you to stay there, leave if you don't like it" :laugh:


Originally Posted by Rez O. Lewshun

You seem to have trouble grasping the concept of choice and free will.

No one forced you to accept employment at FX. and through all the changes at FX, (Flying Tigers, ALPA, FPA, ALPA) no one forced you to stay.

Yet, you seem to have issues with others...for the choices you made.


http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=108006&page=8

You'll have to post what he said. How much time did you spend searching my old posts? Did you know there are lots of naked girls on the Internet that want to show you something?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is called ego preservation....

Gentlemen,
I gave you my concerns, offered what I thought would some workable solutions, and patiently waded through a lot of insults.

No, no one really agreed with you. Time for self reflection?

Is it possible that you are wrong? Note I said possible not even probable

Many of my comments about the problems ALPA has are nothing new to FI, but as usual there are a few posters on here always quick to shout others down should they question the status quo. Maybe you don't agree with anything I said, but hopefully at least it has given some of you pause or made you think.

So now you are taking the high road with statesman like tone...

Look, identifying the problems of ALPA are easy.... it is the solutions! What solutions have you?

Those who constantly speak of the problems and offer no solutions or the deisre to work within the framework are obstructionist. It effects my paycheck.

Some poster named Joe Merchant has a very appropriate tag, it says:

ALPA: To many Rez O. Lewshuns, not enough leaders.

Pitching your tent in Joey's camp is not going to gain you much. So much for the high road..

To me nothing could be truer. Part of the problem we all have is with ALPA's leadership. There are to many guys like Rez O. Lewshun who will pretty much question your humanity if you speak against ALPA.

Oh the Humanity!!!!!!

Hopefully his kind is a dying breed or maybe they are just the most vocal, I don't know, but I do know ALPA needs more guys like Lear 70, willing to critically analyze our mistakes and offer solutions, or UAL Driver who's posts you may have seen in other threads.

So it went from your confident posts, to democracy was threatened and now its your humanity. Are you ok?

Anyway I have said all I needed to say and find I am just repeating myself.

no, you are beaten. You are a management stooge and your are trying to appeal to other posters sense of empathy and compassion for you all while you trash me.... it is embarrassing.

For Mike O. and the rest of the Spirit guys,

For the love of god man, kill your screen name, pay the $10 and start anew.... this is embarrassingly pathetic....

I pray to God I am totally wrong and your MEC has everything under control and is acting in good faith.

You are wrong, way before you pray to god. Good god man.....

I wish you the best and hope you will come back in a few months and say "I told you so, management backed down and gave us what we wanted".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipVO3ZnrzWk

 

[DonVerita]

Originally Posted by AirCobra
"I had a grievence filed against me by the IAM for taking a bag off the jetway and bringing it downstairs. How is that for experience?"

After reading this, I would think you would have had enough experience NOT to touch that bag in the first place. Let's paint a vision of how this could go...

Here comes AirCobra trying to "help out" by bringing a bag from the jetway down the steps to the ramp. If Management had enough personnel to work the flight, this would never had happened, but Management understaffs the airline to make the numbers look good for their main objective - their bonuses.

First mistake: That's not your job just as you wouldn't like it if some ramper came up to the flight deck and attempted to pre-flight the aircraft if you were running late so that your company could get the all-so-important On Time departure.

As AirCobra is walking down the jetway steps with the bag he is not supposed to be carrying...he slips, falls down the rest of the steps and incurs an injury, an OJI to be exact. He goes to the hospital and then calls Management to report it assuming that Management will take care of him.

Second Mistake: Management replies: sorry AirCobra, that does not qualify as an OJI because you were doing something "outside of your job description". So sorry. Have a nice day.

I don't know what plane of existance you live on at your company, but THIS is what happens in the real world.

 

[AirCobra]

Well Just one more thing

Fail. First off, you are creeping me out. Stand down. I like girls. I hope you do to. Those guys are haters that offfer no solutions. I am still waiting for your ALPA improvement plan. Let's hear it... let's see what you got...

Sorry guys but I think this is too imporatant if people like Rez are working for us. This is why you should never listen to him. Contrast this old quote of his with all his quotes in this thread about change not being the answer, democracy not about being radical, its managements fault, and changing corporate culture is not a solution it must come from CapHill, etc. Well he sure didn't think that about United.

If UAL would break the mold and get their employees to increase prodcutivity like SWA does, it would have an edge... until the rest of the legact carrier cought up. A radical culture shift no doubt...

Rez you lost the debate because, more importantly, you have lost sight of those who you are supposed to be representing. All the guys I named "haters", well what about the dozens of others who's names I didn't list? All those that speak out against ALPA "management stooges"? This is how you treat your brothers, that if you are in ALPA leadership, you are supposed to be working for? Instead of more frothing at the mouth defense of ALPA and telling me to look at porn, why don't you do some self reflection?

Nothing creepy about what I have done. If you are in ALPA's leadership, and you are working for the interests of pilots, and on all the committees, and making all these resolutions, I have every right to know what our leadership is about. I assumed if you are making all these posts it must be because you want to be heard. What I have discovered is that you are self righteous, petty, insulting, accusatory, talk out of both sides of you mouth, and could really care less about any of you brothers, its all about your vision of ALPA, not anyone else's. You also toss about plenty of unsubstantiated accusations like the one about activated military reservists, so add to the list open blatant and open prejudice against groups you don't like (military, religious, Republican, anyone who doesn't agree with you about anything). Well we don't need that kind of leadership.

I am doing you a favor. It's all anonymous, I don't know you personally, and you have not been publicly embarrassed in any way because no one knows who you are. Use my comments and those of the rest of us "haters" to remember what you are supposed to be doing as part of ALPA's leadership. You even find it necessary to ridicule words of support I offered for Mike. Good God man is right! You are a petty little man.

Leadership in ALPA is not cheerleading and personal attacks. The people come before the organization and you have lost sight of that.

 

[AirCobra]

Originally Posted by AirCobra
"I had a grievence filed against me by the IAM for taking a bag off the jetway and bringing it downstairs. How is that for experience?"

After reading this, I would think you would have had enough experience NOT to touch that bag in the first place. Let's paint a vision of how this could go...

Here comes AirCobra trying to "help out" by bringing a bag from the jetway down the steps to the ramp. If Management had enough personnel to work the flight, this would never had happened, but Management understaffs the airline to make the numbers look good for their main objective - their bonuses.

First mistake: That's not your job just as you wouldn't like it if some ramper came up to the flight deck and attempted to pre-flight the aircraft if you were running late so that your company could get the all-so-important On Time departure.

As AirCobra is walking down the jetway steps with the bag he is not supposed to be carrying...he slips, falls down the rest of the steps and incurs an injury, an OJI to be exact. He goes to the hospital and then calls Management to report it assuming that Management will take care of him.

Second Mistake: Management replies: sorry AirCobra, that does not qualify as an OJI because you were doing something "outside of your job description". So sorry. Have a nice day.

I don't know what plane of existance you live on at your company, but THIS is what happens in the real world.

Well the United wasn't understaffed at the time. We were the most overstaffed airline in the business and our rampers were the highest paid. They had a really great contract back then. It was a gravy train that soon crashed.

First point is just silly. I can carry a bag down stairs, a ramp guy can't pre-flight the plane. A late departure could screw a lot of other guys. I tried to work within the system as long as I could. So who do you think its better to screw; a notional principle that taking a bag downstairs will take someone's job away (keeping in mind other IAM contracts don't have this provision, I asked), or to directly screw the next crew to take my aircraft, not to mention those trying to get connecting flights, including several airline employees.

Second point: Silly also and totally untrue. Workman's comp is pretty liberal.

Last point the plane of existence I live on is based in reality. When we are talking about that which is theoretical we work within that system until it no longer becomes viable because of reality. For example: if a bag was sitting where someone could trip over it, theoretically you are not supposed to touch a bag because it is taking someone's job away, but if someone is about to trip over that bag, do you move it? Of course you do, the real trumps the theoretical.

Well theoretically in my case what if we were really late, and the next crew wound up having their day extended and were really fatigued then crashed? All because we waited for someone to come and move that bag off the jetway. How is that any less valid than the IAM's assertion?

Honestly in the real world you would probably do the same thing as I did and probably have, just nobody decided to file a grievance against you, because pilots did it, CS did it FA's did it, and even rampers would ask for help occasionally, like with electric wheelchairs.

So what is your point? Next time don't help with the wheelchair, let someone trip over a bag, screw the next crew so they may become fatigued and crash, make sure everyone misses their connecting flights, make sure some ailine employees don't get home that day, and commuting pilots don't make their trips, all for notional protection of a contract provision? This is what you do in the REAL world?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

AC-

Let's get back to the issues.

First. The Spirit pilots are willing to take to the mat (strike) to get a fair CBA for themselves. You disagree. Strikes are business warfare. You are more than willing to travel to foreign lands to engage in warfare, but when it comes to the same fighting spirit within the US CFR, you stand down. You offered your reasoning and opinions as to why the Spirit pilots should stand down and you were voted off the island. You attempted influence, it failed and now you are in ego preservation. The Spirit pilots are willing to strike, it is their house, their rules, their culture.

Finally, ALPA in general. List one to three problems of ALPA on any level and we'll discuss the issues.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well the United wasn't understaffed at the time. We were the most overstaffed airline in the business and our rampers were the highest paid. They had a really great contract back then. It was a gravy train that soon crashed.

So if they were overstaffed why would you hump the bag? Either way you are skewing the performance numbers. On principle if you do undocumented work, management looks at the numbers and says we have too many rampers, let some go.

Either way, it simply isn't your job, not your responsibility. Now, the classic response is. "its not my job is a poor attitude and work ethic". Yet it is not your responsibility to, under your own accord, to take on someone else's responsibility. This is performance welfare. Management loves it.

First point is just silly. I can carry a bag down stairs, a ramp guy can't pre-flight the plane.

That is why the IAM defines the work to their own members, because guys like you will do it. It sets a preceedent that mgmnt will exploit. The camels nose under the tent. But more importantly, if management can get anyone to do it, they will. I've seen middle and upper management on many flights and I've never seen them hump a bag. To be forthright, they always appeared that it was beneath them.

A late departure could screw a lot of other guys.

Not your responsibility. What other parts of the operation are you willing to to jump up and be johhny on the spot for? catering? Lav cleaning? cabin cleaning.... Why are any of these different? All of this is honorable work done by people who are just trying to scrape by on a meager existence and along comes you in your crisp, clean uniform ready to beat them down another rung, by gladly doing their job for free....

I tried to work within the system as long as I could.

It isn't hard. Follow the COM and AOM, FARs, CFR, and CBA.

So who do you think its better to screw; a notional principle that taking a bag downstairs will take someone's job away (keeping in mind other IAM contracts don't have this provision, I asked),

It is not a notional principle. It is fundamental. At one of my regionals we'd have this debate ad nauseum. At one point a pilot washed a RJ windshield. The company wrote it up in the flight ops newsletter as this pilot was being a good guy, all things wonderful. He was slammed and personally embarrassed. Used by mgmt.

You are not management.

It doesn't matter if other IAM contracts don't have this provision. If you get pulled over by a cop do you tell him that another towns laws are different?

or to directly screw the next crew to take my aircraft, not to mention those trying to get connecting flights, including several airline employees.

The next crew isn't expecting or hoping that you'll hump bags. They know the system is dependant on good management, not johhny on the spot.

Second point: Silly also and totally untrue. Workman's comp is pretty liberal.

As an elected ALPA rep who worked an OJI case and discussed others with our CA, you are wrong.

Last point the plane of existence I live on is based in reality. When we are talking about that which is theoretical we work within that system until it no longer becomes viable because of reality. For example: if a bag was sitting where someone could trip over it, theoretically you are not supposed to touch a bag because it is taking someone's job away, but if someone is about to trip over that bag, do you move it? Of course you do, the real trumps the theoretical.

Catastrophic failure. I've a soft spot for moms traveling with kids alone. I do whatever I can to help. Moving a bag to prevent personal injury and violating a labor contract is not valid. Personal injury and on time are not the same.

Well theoretically in my case what if we were really late

, or even worse.. what if you were like really, really late?

and the next crew wound up having their day extended and were really fatigued then crashed? All because we waited for someone to come and move that bag off the jetway. How is that any less valid than the IAM's assertion?

Then document it!!! These problems won't get fixed when you act autonomously. Management looks at numbers. Data. You are skewing the data. They don't see the problem because you mask it.

If you insist on humping bags and cleaning lavs then you must document it to show where the weaknesses are in the system!

Help the crew that got extended by giving them the facts so they can also file a report.

Honestly in the real world you would probably do the same thing as I did and probably have, just nobody decided to file a grievance against you, because pilots did it, CS did it FA's did it, and even rampers would ask for help occasionally, like with electric wheelchairs.

Denial and personal justification don't work here. You were a professional pilot, and expected to behave accordingly. What you are saying here is, as the older kid: well the younger kids were doing it too!

So what is your point? Next time don't help with the wheelchair,

Nope. I recall waiting with a family member whose wife was in a wheelchair. The man stated he used to get angry but now just accepts it. Airlines have contracted out wheelchair service to the lowest bidder (your capitalism at its best...) It is the airlines responsibility. Not yours. If they truely want good WC service they'd do it. I am sure Glenn's bonus for raping pilot pay and pensions would fix the wheelchair problem.

let someone trip over a bag,

Be a big boy and move the bag. It is ok.

screw the next crew so they may become fatigued and crash,

Suddenly you are responsible for another crews professional assessment to determine their own state of fatigue? Who is responsible for determining your fatigue status? A guy just like you on an earlier flight who is johnny on the the spot humping bags?

make sure everyone misses their connecting flights,

Show me in the FOM or CBA that you are responsible for everyone catching their connecting flights.

make sure some ailine employees don't get home that day,

Are you going to drive them home?

and commuting pilots don't make their trips,

Commuting pilots know the reality of commuting. They are prepared to go the the crashpad or get a hotel. What they probably don't like is pilots working for free and masking mgmnt incompetence.

all for notional protection of a contract provision? This is what you do in the REAL world?

You describe it as notional when it is fundamental. At a minimal it is codified federal law. So what you are advocating is breaking federal law.


I doubt you've ever functioned as a Part 121 PIC? I don't want my FOs bouncing out of the cockpit to hump bags. I want them in their seat, relaxed and ready to do their job. If they have 5 mons to hump bags then they have 5 mins to go to to the back end and run a little C/L/R with the FAs. In addition, if something comes up critical to flight safety I want them there so I don't have to explain it to them and get them up to speed when they come back from bag humping. The most critical part of SA is knowing whats happened. Also, if something comes up and the captain has to leave the flight deck it is awkward because no else is there because you gotta be johnny on the spot, humping bags.

The last thing I want is a pax telling me to go hump bags all because someone like you set an example. "well the United guy took my bag down so we could leave on time... why wont you?"

Professional pilots do not hump bags, clean lavs or other clearly defined job descriptions of other employees. It degrades the profession and motivates management to get us to devalue ourselves. Have some self respect.

 

[AirCobra]

AC-

Let's get back to the issues.

First. The Spirit pilots are willing to take to the mat (strike) to get a fair CBA for themselves. You disagree. Strikes are business warfare. You are more than willing to travel to foreign lands to engage in warfare, but when it comes to the same fighting spirit within the US CFR, you stand down. You offered your reasoning and opinions as to why the Spirit pilots should stand down and you were voted off the island. You attempted influence, it failed and now you are in ego preservation. The Spirit pilots are willing to strike, it is their house, their rules, their culture.

Finally, ALPA in general. List one to three problems of ALPA on any level and we'll discuss the issues.

I think what I said about Spirit applies across the board just like what you said about United and Southwest. A radical culture shift is what you mentioned. I also accept that the leadership of ALPA is not very receptive to radical culture shifts. I don't accept that anyone who expresses an opposing viewpoints should be shouted down or ridiculed. Being adaptive to situations, analyzing, and learning from our mistakes, is something I believe is sorely lacking in our organization. We need to strengthen the organization so it is ready and equipped to take on big issues like changing CFR's. To use your analogy changing government is the war, but to win the war we have to win some battles first, and we are not going to win battles unless we adapt to the current environment.

Look how the laws have been changed in favor of corporations over the past decade. But ALPA doesn't want to operate in the new environment, they want to operate in the old one. So you talk about changing CFR's and Washington back to make it so ALPA can work like it used to. Well what do we do in the meantime? What have we done to adapt to the current environment? Are strikes still the most effective type of business warfare in this environment? That is all I was talking about with Spirit, a united front that spans the entire company, not a united front of pilots from other airlines. I don't think management cares what that Canadian Metroliner pilots are on Spirit's side because they can't exert pressure like a combined effort of employee groups within a single company can given the way laws are now. I know you had opinions why that won't work and I appreciate that. Well then I would like hear what others have, but I don't because if you say you need change, it also means admitting that you have made mistakes, and we have become very resistant to doing that. How is it ego preservation to say "hey we screwed up, lets fix it"?

Rez you lost a great opportunity. If you are ALPA leadership you had an anonymous forum to discuss peoples concerns with our organization, maybe from people that otherwise would be too afraid to speak in public. You could have been listening all these years and trying to understand other points of view and tried to be open to other ideas. Instead you squandered that goodwill in a torrent of personal attacks, insults, and defense of ALPA against criticism at all costs. What you said to that Fed Ex guy was reprehensible, and you have made some pretty obscene accusations against people who honorably serve their country. How do you think that makes the rank and file feel about their leadership? It turns people off to get insulted, even anonymously and I am sure a lot of stopped discussing anything with you out of frustration. I think you are like a politician that has lost touch with their constituents. You have lost your way. Well hopefully you can reflect and try to get back on track. You will be able better serve us and our organization if you do.

 

[pilotyip]

aircobra keep up the good work, you got rez so busy she can not post anywhere else.

 

[AirCobra]

So if they were overstaffed why would you hump the bag? Either way you are skewing the performance numbers. On principle if you do undocumented work, management looks at the numbers and says we have too many rampers, let some go.

Either way, it simply isn't your job, not your responsibility. Now, the classic response is. "its not my job is a poor attitude and work ethic". Yet it is not your responsibility to, under your own accord, to take on someone else's responsibility. This is performance welfare. Management loves it.

That is why the IAM defines the work to their own members, because guys like you will do it. It sets a preceedent that mgmnt will exploit. The camels nose under the tent. But more importantly, if management can get anyone to do it, they will. I've seen middle and upper management on many flights and I've never seen them hump a bag. To be forthright, they always appeared that it was beneath them.


Not your responsibility. What other parts of the operation are you willing to to jump up and be johhny on the spot for? catering? Lav cleaning? cabin cleaning.... Why are any of these different? All of this is honorable work done by people who are just trying to scrape by on a meager existence and along comes you in your crisp, clean uniform ready to beat them down another rung, by gladly doing their job for free....

It isn't hard. Follow the COM and AOM, FARs, CFR, and CBA.

It is not a notional principle. It is fundamental. At one of my regionals we'd have this debate ad nauseum. At one point a pilot washed a RJ windshield. The company wrote it up in the flight ops newsletter as this pilot was being a good guy, all things wonderful. He was slammed and personally embarrassed. Used by mgmt.

You are not management.

It doesn't matter if other IAM contracts don't have this provision. If you get pulled over by a cop do you tell him that another towns laws are different?


The next crew isn't expecting or hoping that you'll hump bags. They know the system is dependant on good management, not johhny on the spot.

As an elected ALPA rep who worked an OJI case and discussed others with our CA, you are wrong.

Catastrophic failure. I've a soft spot for moms traveling with kids alone. I do whatever I can to help. Moving a bag to prevent personal injury and violating a labor contract is not valid. Personal injury and on time are not the same.

, or even worse.. what if you were like really, really late?


Then document it!!! These problems won't get fixed when you act autonomously. Management looks at numbers. Data. You are skewing the data. They don't see the problem because you mask it.

If you insist on humping bags and cleaning lavs then you must document it to show where the weaknesses are in the system!

Help the crew that got extended by giving them the facts so they can also file a report.

Denial and personal justification don't work here. You were a professional pilot, and expected to behave accordingly. What you are saying here is, as the older kid: well the younger kids were doing it too!


Nope. I recall waiting with a family member whose wife was in a wheelchair. The man stated he used to get angry but now just accepts it. Airlines have contracted out wheelchair service to the lowest bidder (your capitalism at its best...) It is the airlines responsibility. Not yours. If they truely want good WC service they'd do it. I am sure Glenn's bonus for raping pilot pay and pensions would fix the wheelchair problem.


Be a big boy and move the bag. It is ok.


Suddenly you are responsible for another crews professional assessment to determine their own state of fatigue? Who is responsible for determining your fatigue status? A guy just like you on an earlier flight who is johnny on the the spot humping bags?


Show me in the FOM or CBA that you are responsible for everyone catching their connecting flights.


Are you going to drive them home?


Commuting pilots know the reality of commuting. They are prepared to go the the crashpad or get a hotel. What they probably don't like is pilots working for free and masking mgmnt incompetence.

You describe it as notional when it is fundamental. At a minimal it is codified federal law. So what you are advocating is breaking federal law.


I doubt you've ever functioned as a Part 121 PIC? I don't want my FOs bouncing out of the cockpit to hump bags. I want them in their seat, relaxed and ready to do their job. If they have 5 mons to hump bags then they have 5 mins to go to to the back end and run a little C/L/R with the FAs. In addition, if something comes up critical to flight safety I want them there so I don't have to explain it to them and get them up to speed when they come back from bag humping. The most critical part of SA is knowing whats happened. Also, if something comes up and the captain has to leave the flight deck it is awkward because no else is there because you gotta be johnny on the spot, humping bags.

Professional pilots do not hump bags, clean lavs or other clearly defined job descriptions of other employees. It degrades the profession and motivates management to get us to devalue ourselves. Have some self respect.

Rez why did you waste your time? You have done the same sort of thing to get out on time at one time or another, everyone has, and you will move a bag out of the way if someone is going to trip and fall. Please spare me self righteous lying. BTW I was an FE, so I don't think the Captain probably even cared if I was there or not.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I think what I said about Spirit applies across the board just like what you said about United and Southwest. A radical culture shift is what you mentioned. I also accept that the leadership of ALPA is not very receptive to radical culture shifts.

What specifically do you suggest is a radical cultural shift?

I don't accept that anyone who expresses an opposing viewpoints should be shouted down or ridiculed.

Agreed. Yet this is what you do to be on other political issues. You refuse to address the issue and resort to name calling a labeling.

In addition, opposing viewpoints have to have merit, credibility and traction. You can't simply make broad brush claims that "ALPA should just ______." And then claim ALPA is messed up because someone else didn't implement.

Being adaptive to situations, analyzing, and learning from our mistakes, is something I believe is sorely lacking in our organization. We need to strengthen the organization so it is ready and equipped to take on big issues like changing CFR's.

Ok... good... how exactly should we be adaptive? What should we do exactly?

In addition, changing CFR, like you suggest is all about CapHill. When I asked you how much you give to ALPA PAC you sneered that you got a grievance against you from the IAM, meaning that is the best of your participation.

As an UAL pilot, you could have also given to UP-PAC. Since you just suggested that we take on big issues like changing CFRs did you give to ALPA and UP PAC?

To use your analogy changing government is the war, but to win the war we have to win some battles first, and we are not going to win battles unless we adapt to the current environment.

Agreed. HOW? it is all about the HOW.

Look how the laws have been changed in favor of corporations over the past decade. But ALPA doesn't want to operate in the new environment, they want to operate in the old one. So you talk about changing CFR's and Washington back to make it so ALPA can work like it used to. Well what do we do in the meantime? What have we done to adapt to the current environment?

What odes this mean? The old and new? Explain what this old and new is? I don't get your understanding of this....

Are strikes still the most effective type of business warfare in this environment?

Yes. If you disagree, then state way.

That is all I was talking about with Spirit, a united front that spans the entire company, not a united front of pilots from other airlines.

And I told you that when you align with other employee groups they can drag you down. Look ALPA might seem weak but compared to other unions ALPA is pretty good.

But what you are talking about is getting other employee groups to honor your picket line. Look, a united front with other groups is fine, but if there is no coercion it doesn't matter. That coercion is a strike. If you have a better idea let's hear it.

I don't think management cares what that Canadian Metroliner pilots are on Spirit's side because they can't exert pressure like a combined effort of employee groups within a single company can given the way laws are now. I know you had opinions why that won't work and I appreciate that. Well then I would like hear what others have, but I don't because if you say you need change, it also means admitting that you have made mistakes, and we have become very resistant to doing that. How is it ego preservation to say "hey we screwed up, lets fix it"?

The only thing that makes a company change is govt laws and intervention and group unity. The govt laws and intervention are the RLA and a strike. The group unity is leadership. It is nice that you got the rampers support, but that is symbolic unless it is a quid pro quo for them.

Rez you lost a great opportunity. If you are ALPA leadership you had an anonymous forum to discuss peoples concerns with our organization, maybe from people that otherwise would be too afraid to speak in public. You could have been listening all these years and trying to understand other points of view and tried to be open to other ideas. Instead you squandered that goodwill in a torrent of personal attacks, insults, and defense of ALPA against criticism at all costs.

Negative. The guys that you've associated yourself with are haters. Again you are trying to legitimize them because they are the anti-ALPA crowd. But that doesn't mean logic and reason should be thrown out the window to accommodate stupidity, hatred and obstructionism.

What you said to that Fed Ex guy was reprehensible,

I thought we were talking about the issues. Now you are back to attacks.

and you have made some pretty obscene accusations against people who honorably serve their country.

So much for the issues.

How do you think that makes the rank and file feel about their leadership?
It turns people off to get insulted, even anonymously and I am sure a lot of stopped discussing anything with you out of frustration.

That is because they get frustrated because they have poor expectations, expect radical change, expect others to do the heavy lifting.

I think you are like a politician that has lost touch with their constituents. You have lost your way. Well hopefully you can reflect and try to get back on track. You will be able better serve us and our organization if you do.

Now that you are done, let's get back to the issues....

Three direct replies here:

You've stated that you think Spirit pilots should not use the strike route, not seek out support from non-Spirit pilot groups and form alliances and coalitions with other Spirit labor groups. Ok, fine... where is the coercion or influence in this game plan to get mgmnt to negotiate fairly and timely?

In addition you stated a radical cultural shift in ALPA? What exactly do you mean by this? and HOW will it get done?

You also stated that changing the CFR and the old and new ways. But you have yet to state that you participate in ALPA or UP PAC. Why? And if you won't do the PAC how do you expect ALPA to change CFRs?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez why did you waste your time?

Because other pilots will read this and need to consider the implications.

You have done the same sort of thing to get out on time at one time or another, everyone has,

Have some integrity and honor. Everyone else has done it is an excuse for the weak.

and you will move a bag out of the way if someone is going to trip and fall.

I stated that you should move the bag if you feel it is an injury situation, but that it is fundamentally different that breaking federal law that is codified in a labor contract. Why do insist on being special and exempting yourself from the law?

Please spare me self righteous lying.

Back on the personal attacks?

BTW I was an FE, so I don't think the Captain probably even cared if I was there or not.

So now you speak for the Captain?

 

[Mamma]

From Rez:

I am tired of MIL guys showing with with their pensions and health bennies and not giving a damm about their fellow pilots who are trying to make it better for them. The MIL guys deserve their bennies, but they also are expected to support their fellow pilots in an effort to gain a fair and reasonable contract for themselves and their family.

Rez, once again you swing for the bleachers and strike out. YGBFSM with this remark. I was enjoying the back and forth until you crammed your head up your a$$ and farted this gem out. I would venture to guess that a very large percentage of airline pilots have a military history and a very very large percentage of them are not collecting a pension or health bennies. You see, they got out or are reservists. I don't know of any military pilots who do not support their fellow pilots. In fact, I would venture to guess the majority of mil pilots support their fellow pilots because that is what we do...watch each other's back. In fact, I personally know of three pilots (there are more) at Alaska Airlines that are still working because mil pilots opted to go on orders to keep them on property. They opted to go fly to war instead of letting the company throw more pilots on the street.

We have engaged on the military issue in the past and you came up WAY short in your knowledge of the military and the people who serve. Maybe in the future you could just shut your pie-hole on this issue. Your conspiracy theories and anti-military blather are getting old.

Now back to the rant.....