If/When Spirit Strikes

[AirCobra]

Wow... amazing and hypocritical. What you are advocating here is the jetblue open door policy or what you have at your current employer. You are getting your lunch handed to you on this thread.... you're the small minority here so now it is described by you as no one welcomes your opinion and that is the root of the problems over the last 30 years. GMAFB.
Sometimes people hate to hear the truth. And I don't say its the truth just becuase I believe it, I got 30 years of history backing me up. If you can show me where ALPA tactics have demonstrated an unbridled chain of lasting success I wil have nothing to say. All I see is ALPA getting wekaer becuase it doesn't move forward.

You have already been told that Spirit pilots have tried to the SWA style of working with... it failed. Now the result is a possible strike. I started this thread to show solidarity with the Spirit pilots. The problem when you hook up to other labor groups is you start to negotiate with them whether you like it or not. Suddenly negotiation capital is lost because gains were made for another group. Sorry, when it comes to organized labor, ALPA is the best compared to others. ALPA's leverage would be other groups gain and Spirit pilots loss.
If you don't hang together you will hang seperately. These tactics make management's position stronger becuase now all they have to do is pit one group against another like United mgt. did with FA's and pilots or FA's and the IAM. I asked what do you think the outcome of a strike will be and gave my opinion. What are your thoughts.

Sounds fun. But at some point you've got to look at the ROI of the union actions. When it comes down to it, a strike is the only action that gain leverage.
What leverage, for how long, at what cost? You always ridicule me by saying you think the future is in the past. Well this sound like Samuel Gompers could have said it a 100 years ago.


Of course you do, that is because you believe management and CEOs are patriarchs, the father figure and you do as your told, don't talk back and take what you are given.
If I believed that I wouldn't care, and I wouldn't be here discussing this.

This is untrue. You simply know not what you speak of. There has been zero growth since 2001. Of course you blame ALPA, why would you blame the princes and captains of industry?
What LASTING positive things came out of thiose strikes. Why should we expect different results using the same tactics as before.


That is why each MEC is its own autonomous unit. It works well during growth and has its draw backs in recessions. However, most ALPA pilots like it this way. They don't want a Teamster set up.
Most MEC's usually speak for ALPA and feed ALPA's line to the pilots. If someone speaks up they usually get shouted down. Its not a very open atmosphere conducive to any opinion outside what you present here. Your open hostility only proves it. Other opinions or suggestion are not wanted or welcome.

Let me make this excruciatingly clear to you. Pilots do not run Air Lines. Management loves to give guys like you the illusion that you are part of the "team". You buy into it. You love it.....
They don't give me that illusion, the fact that I can't do my job without maint, FA's, ramp service, CS and so on and so on gives me that illusion.

A pilots job is to safely fly the jet from point A to B. Nothing more or less.
If that is how you operate, then you are not very good at what you do and I don't believe you really even think this way. You mean you don't care if you block out late, or you don't try to shave a few minutes off your flight time so people don't miss their connections. You don't pick altitudes and power settings to maxamize efficiency? These are all business decisions Rez. Our job includes, training, mentoring, managing, and decision making to maximize efficiency.

Because management will exploit it. They will let you believe that you are a part of their team.
So we should never do what we are supposed to do and be good at what we do because someone may exploit it. What an awful way to go through life. There is something called Karma you know, or as it says in the Bible, you shall reap what you sow.

We just did. You've displayed fundamental beliefs that are exploitable by management. While you are not expected to be, not trying to be, nor will you ever be... however, you'd make a very poor pilot leader.
This from the person who only need to get from A to B. Damn the consequences, I am doing the minimum.

We? You are non union pilot for a corporation. Do you really have an interest in the Air Line Pilot Profession? If so, how and why?
Yep, because I am still an airline pilot. I am as much of one as any furloughed guys who haven't flown since 2001. Will I ever go back to it, probably not, but I still have dozens of people I am concerned for and care about. I am tired of seeing people struggle and I feel I am in an excellent position to maybe say some things people don't want to hear, since I have nothing to lose. ALPA has set up a system where its nearly impossible to deviate from the company line so to speak, where guys have to suffer in silence. Who better to speak than somone who does not have to count on returning to an airline job, to speak for those ALPA wants to silence.

That change will be on CapHill and it is not going to happen. Democracy, what you quite possibly reject, is not about radical change. It is designed to prevent radicals from making change. This is a good thing on a macro level. Then again.. can you tell me why you'd know this?
Democracy is the ultimate form of radical change. ALPA can't continue like it is. Why is change on CapHill better than reform from within? From people who know our failures, and know where the bodies are buried. Are we too afraid to admit mistakes? Do we as an orgnization fear change that much that we are paralyzed to do anything different?


Us? You mean 'you'? Regardless, you are incredibly wrong. perception has value, but when it comes down to it, there are two forces that use for leverage: unity and govt support. As I said you wouldn't make a good pilot leader.
Its not just me . You can't believe with a pilot group of tens of thousands that there are not a lot of people that seek reform.


You are not nuts, just ignorant on the issues. You had an excellent opportunity to learn from the United pilots. They are about the best when it comes to defending and promoting the profession.
I learned for the United pilots. A lot of what I am saying is what I learned. United can't play well as a team so we suffered for it.

Curious what you profession activities have been and what sources you've read.

Yes or no.

Did you give to ALPA PAC?

Did you bring a resolution to your LEC?

Committee work? Committe chair? Elected Rep?
I had a grievence filed against me by the IAM for taking a bag off the jetway and bringing it downstairs. How is that for experience?

 

[enigma]

That is the funniest thing I have ever read in my entire life...full RLA protection, what a crock of pooh. The only thing the RLA does is protect management from labor walking off the job, the intent is to protect both sides with no changes is status quo but, as you know, we have had the rules changed on us more than once since we were protected by the full RLA protections...

401(k)
Wheel roll
4 days off

...please explain how the RLA protects us the labor?

Mike, please. I know you and I know you know better.

The RLA gives us at least the following two protections.

Grievance procedures that force the company to prove (in a court of law) charges against you. This effectively gives us a defense against unreasonable/arbitrary firing and/or discipline.

It forces the employer to follow formal discipline process.

The RLA provides an arbitration process if we feel wronged and can't work it out in grievance.

I spent most of my adult life working jobs where I could be fired with no reason, no less follow a formal procedure before doing so. Believe me, the system board, the grievance process, arbitration, and the right to council from your elected rep is worth a lot.

If you really don't like the RLA, quit and take a corporate job. Been there done that, I'll take RLA warts and all over a corporate "business card" Chief pilot ANY day.

BTW, all examples you mention are weak areas of the contract. Grey language in every case. Maybe you forgot the grievances we WON using the system. In every case where the language is clear and in our favor, we won. We lost wheel roll because the MEC allowed it for the early 321's. The company tried to get by with stealing our 4 days off in a row because the language is absolutely horrible. We finally beat them (using the RLA overseen Arbitration process) on the four day off deal because of negotiating notes from past contract negotiations and past practice. Non of which would have been possible without the RLA's arbitration process.

 

[enigma]

It is management's responsibility, something you've failed to learn.

Learning: a change in behavior as a result of experience.


Once again, the conservative blueprint and mindset comes out... corporations are good. CEOs= partiarch father figure... do as your told, don't talk back, be thankful for what you are given.

It's not conservatism. He's into corporatism, or maybe he's a NEOCon. I'm conservative, he's not.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wow... amazing and hypocritical. What you are advocating here is the jetblue open door policy or what you have at your current employer. You are getting your lunch handed to you on this thread.... you're the small minority here so now it is described by you as no one welcomes your opinion and that is the root of the problems over the last 30 years. GMAFB.
Sometimes people hate to hear the truth. And I don't say its the truth just becuase I believe it, I got 30 years of history backing me up. If you can show me where ALPA tactics have demonstrated an unbridled chain of lasting success I wil have nothing to say. All I see is ALPA getting wekaer becuase it doesn't move forward.

Well you've don't like to hear the truth when it comes to neoliberal polices, which is related here... actually. Lasting success? Who stated that was ever the case? Where did you develop this exepcation? Who told you that lasting success was reality? Seriously, you need to go back to the drawing board. Let me guess... you went striaght from the MIL to UAL?

You have already been told that Spirit pilots have tried to the SWA style of working with... it failed. Now the result is a possible strike. I started this thread to show solidarity with the Spirit pilots. The problem when you hook up to other labor groups is you start to negotiate with them whether you like it or not. Suddenly negotiation capital is lost because gains were made for another group. Sorry, when it comes to organized labor, ALPA is the best compared to others. ALPA's leverage would be other groups gain and Spirit pilots loss.
If you don't hang together you will hang seperately. These tactics make management's position stronger becuase now all they have to do is pit one group against another like United mgt. did with FA's and pilots or FA's and the IAM. I asked what do you think the outcome of a strike will be and gave my opinion. What are your thoughts.

With the right politics in the WH and nmb and a well run MEC... the Spirit strike will be successful.

Sounds fun. But at some point you've got to look at the ROI of the union actions. When it comes down to it, a strike is the only action that gain leverage.
What leverage, for how long, at what cost? You always ridicule me by saying you think the future is in the past. Well this sound like Samuel Gompers could have said it a 100 years ago.

Yet it is. Until the company is shut down, but more importanly the pilots have the ear of the WH, not management, will the strike be successful.

Of course you do, that is because you believe management and CEOs are patriarchs, the father figure and you do as your told, don't talk back and take what you are given.
If I believed that I wouldn't care, and I wouldn't be here discussing this.

OF course.

This is untrue. You simply know not what you speak of. There has been zero growth since 2001. Of course you blame ALPA, why would you blame the princes and captains of industry?
What LASTING positive things came out of thiose strikes. Why should we expect different results using the same tactics as before.

I have already addressed this. Your expecation of lasting success is flawed. That is why there is a CBA.

That is why each MEC is its own autonomous unit. It works well during growth and has its draw backs in recessions. However, most ALPA pilots like it this way. They don't want a Teamster set up.
Most MEC's usually speak for ALPA and feed ALPA's line to the pilots. If someone speaks up they usually get shouted down. Its not a very open atmosphere conducive to any opinion outside what you present here. Your open hostility only proves it. Other opinions or suggestion are not wanted or welcome.

It depends on how you speak up. If you do it it like a rabid radical it only waste time. See, you have no idea how to function in a democractic organization. But why would you.. you went from your patriarch household growing up to the MIL and church. You were rarely asked what you thought, rather you were told what to do, when to do and be thankful for what you were given, even if it was crap, illegal or immoral. That is why unions are foreign to you... you can't use MIL law to order someone around, you have to build relationships, respect others and come up with a blended plan. Once that plan is agreed upon, you've got to show a solid front. This is very difficult if not impossible for guys like you.

Let me make this excruciatingly clear to you. Pilots do not run Air Lines. Management loves to give guys like you the illusion that you are part of the "team". You buy into it. You love it.....
They don't give me that illusion, the fact that I can't do my job without maint, FA's, ramp service, CS and so on and so on gives me that illusion.

Yet you anger ramp by violating thier contract. (see below).

A pilots job is to safely fly the jet from point A to B. Nothing more or less.
If that is how you operate, then you are not very good at what you do and I don't believe you really even think this way. You mean you don't care if you block out late, or you don't try to shave a few minutes off your flight time so people don't miss their connections. You don't pick altitudes and power settings to maxamize efficiency? These are all business decisions Rez. Our job includes, training, mentoring, managing, and decision making to maximize efficiency.

No they are not business decisions. They are operational decsisons. As the PIC I make those all the time. Again you show your ignorance. You think they are business decisions. Some tool in airline management told you on time, saviing gas, etc was a business choice and you believed them.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because management will exploit it. They will let you believe that you are a part of their team.
So we should never do what we are supposed to do and be good at what we do because someone may exploit it. What an awful way to go through life. There is something called Karma you know, or as it says in the Bible, you shall reap what you sow.

You are losing the debate as shown by the fundamentals classic reversion to the Bible. God has nothing to do with this. Either you can debate intelligently on the issue or not. God can't help your ignorance. Only you can.

We just did. You've displayed fundamental beliefs that are exploitable by management. While you are not expected to be, not trying to be, nor will you ever be... however, you'd make a very poor pilot leader.
This from the person who only need to get from A to B. Damn the consequences, I am doing the minimum.

That is a false correlation on your part. I've gone above and beyond for the pax. I know the difference. I refuse to be a corporate tool.

We? You are non union pilot for a corporation. Do you really have an interest in the Air Line Pilot Profession? If so, how and why?
Yep, because I am still an airline pilot. I am as much of one as any furloughed guys who haven't flown since 2001. Will I ever go back to it, probably not, but I still have dozens of people I am concerned for and care about. I am tired of seeing people struggle and I feel I am in an excellent position to maybe say some things people don't want to hear, since I have nothing to lose. ALPA has set up a system where its nearly impossible to deviate from the company line so to speak, where guys have to suffer in silence. Who better to speak than somone who does not have to count on returning to an airline job, to speak for those ALPA wants to silence.

You need to shed your ignorance first. Seriously, you are so far removed from the labor movement and its ideals that you need to get 'trained and educated' if this is how you really believe. I think the pushback that you've gotten, not from me, but from so many on this thread is telling. Don't you? In addition, having a grievance filed against you is a bad stuff.

That change will be on CapHill and it is not going to happen. Democracy, what you quite possibly reject, is not about radical change. It is designed to prevent radicals from making change. This is a good thing on a macro level. Then again.. can you tell me why you'd know this?
Democracy is the ultimate form of radical change.

No it is not. Again, from someone who has never really functioned in a democracy you demonstrate again your failure to understand. Democracy is about stability. Revolution and activists movements is about radical change. Sure they can happen within a democratic system, but democracy is not radical.

ALPA can't continue like it is. Why is change on CapHill better than reform from within? From people who know our failures, and know where the bodies are buried. Are we too afraid to admit mistakes? Do we as an organization fear change that much that we are paralyzed to do anything different?

Are you serious? We have admitted our mistakes. What do you want ALPA members to be? Opus Dei? Self mutilating?

Everything that effects Air Line Pilots careers is determined politically. New higher regional pilots don't know this. You should.

But you are advocating that ALPA is paralyzed. What should be done to reverse this. What do you advocate? If you answer nothing else.. tell us what you think ALPA should do differently.. and how. Ideas are great but it is really the how.

Us? You mean 'you'? Regardless, you are incredibly wrong. perception has value, but when it comes down to it, there are two forces that use for leverage: unity and govt support. As I said you wouldn't make a good pilot leader.
Its not just me . You can't believe with a pilot group of tens of thousands that there are not a lot of people that seek reform.

Explain

You are not nuts, just ignorant on the issues. You had an excellent opportunity to learn from the United pilots. They are about the best when it comes to defending and promoting the profession.
I learned for the United pilots. A lot of what I am saying is what I learned. United can't play well as a team so we suffered for it.

No you did not. In addition there are UAL pilots that want UPA. You level of understanding is weak. Just read the replies from many others on this thread.

Curious what you profession activities have been and what sources you've read.

Yes or no.

Did you give to ALPA PAC?

Did you bring a resolution to your LEC?

Committee work? Committee chair? Elected Rep?
I had a grievance filed against me by the IAM for taking a bag off the jetway and bringing it downstairs. How is that for experience?

My new sig line.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's not conservatism. He's into corporatism, or maybe he's a NEOCon. I'm conservative, he's not.

oh agreed... however when speaking to a chinese one must use chinese. He has no clue what is corporatism, the corprotocracy or elitist/crony/casino capitalism.

 

[enigma]

Aircobra, All the problems you lay at ALPA's feet are the result of the law.

The RLA was specifically written for the railroads and specifically intended to prevent a transportation stoppage. Everything is long and drawn out because the FedGov wants it that way. ALPA is playing the game in the prescribed arena under the prescribed rules.

As previously stated, I am a conservative and I tend to take a very pro business tack in these matters, and I telling you that ALPA can't become what you desire until the rules are changed and the companies are no longer allowed to hide behind the intent of the RLA and behind some bankruptcy judges skirt.

 

[DonVerita]

It seems if you can't discuss the economic realities of the airline industry for at least the past three years that perhaps you are the one living in Fantasy Land. It does not say much for your corporate culture if you are deliberately trying to damage your airline. Did you fail to notice that you will all lose out in the long run if you keep it up.

It seems to me that Lear70 spelled it out crystal clear for you. I happen to know him and can attest to his sharp analytical skills. Because of him, our pilot group had the data in hand to disect not 1, but 2 abysmal TA's and vote both of them down accordingly.

Nobody said anything about deliberately damaging an airline. Where exactly did you see that? What he and others have said is that we no longer go above and beyond, not one inch. You can thank Management for that. They've never done that for us, yet you think we should always do that for them? Quid pro quo.

So we'll all lose in the long run, eh? That's your flawed thinking. What you need to understand is that every once in a while, some blood has to be spilled in the figurative sense. Do you honestly think that the high paying contracts in recent memory, and even some of the ones still in effect today would have materialized if it hadn't been for our predecessors willing to risk everything by walking the line in a strike? We'd be no better off than the minimum wage 7-11 employee if we weren't willing to exercise our ultimate weapon and actually do so from time to time. What sets us apart is our professionalism, expectation to be comensurately compensated, and our willingness to go to the mat over it.

 

[waveflyer]

It boils down to one line- every time mgmt furloughs or cuts pay- "it's just business." well "it's just business" for us too. Nothing personal, but if you're not willing to walk out- you'll never get paid your full worth.

 

[WayBack]

If Spirit can't pay a competitive wage and stay in business, then they deserve to go out of business.

couldn't agree with you anymore.
When is the date of this supposed vote to strike, or which ever stage it's in?
I HIGHLY doubt, with ALPA's recent track record, there will be any strike. Just more informational picketing.
Just like the PCL guys were going to strike for sure.