If/When Spirit Strikes

[Mike man]

That would be when they (AirTran, JetBlue, SWA) became a major airline. World Class...maybe not yet, but definitely not fly-by-night.

I said when did they cross the line from fly-by-night to world class...nothing else.

 

[AirCobra]

Once again you need to be told what responsibility means.


Yes, they do. Yes they are responsible.


Suddenly managment is the victim here. Why does SWA not have this problem. Why do insist on treating other people like trash and when the backlash comes you act surpised and judgemental?


Yet I am sure you actually believe this drivel you are posting here about management not being responsbile for their own company. Is a commanding officer responsible for his mens morale? The fact that I am actually schooling you on leadership and morale is telling....

Do you believe in civil disobedience? At what point do you stop taking sh!t and pushback? Have you no honor or integrity?



Who is responible for the buy in?

Who is responsbile for a growing, stable and profitable company??? The union?



Negative. the labor contract tells Fred what his cost are. Now his job is to manage those fixed cost over the terms of the contract. Naturally he will try and change it... but guess what... that is the purpose of a contract.

What is the difference between SWA labor and Spirits and UALs? You worked for UAL before you cut and ran... What are you saying about the UAL pilots? That Glenn is a good guy and the pilots, who took pay cuts and lost thier pensions to keep the company solvant all while Glenn and Co. took bonuses....... that the pilots are what.... say it....

Rez this is all nonsense. It is the exact kind of attitude I am talking about, blaming everything on management or that you won't do anything to help the company until management improves. This is the recipe that will lose Spirit pilots their jobs as it did for Eastern (before Lorenzo Eastern), United, and countless others. It can come from ALPA or the IAM it doesn't matter, all the labor groups will pay in the long run.

Lets get off the talking points here and talk about attitudes and culture. What is the attitude ALPA wants? What do you push? That we are ALPA pilots who work for an airline, doesn't matter which one, first and foremost we are ALPA. Is that the attitude at SWA? That they are SWAPA pilots that work for Southwest? of course not. Southwest employees have buy-in to the company. Buy-in isn't only generated by management, it has to stem from the whole organization. If management aint selling it right then the employees should be. To use a military analogy, the Army sells college, the Navy sells travel, the Air Force sells technical training, but the Marines sell being a Marine. Do you understand what that means? That is in essence is what Southwest (management and EMPLOYEES) have that Spirit and so many other airlines don't, they sell that you are Southwest, you are not SWAPA, or the IAM or ALPA or whatever. Your brothers and you family are Southwest and its employees not 120 pilots flying Metroliners in Manitoba.

Your pay and work conditions will be improved at the airline you work for if you work as a team to make the airline a success, not by some industry wide reciprocity of contracts. I think you read Nuts but missed the message. You want what Southwest has, but you don't want to do what it takes to get it. You are like a baseball player who wants a contract like A-Rod's, but only hits .220.

Since you want to use a military analogy lets talk about that. The commanding officer is responsible for the actions for his unit, but the members of that unit have already been indoctrinated into that culture through months of training. After that you are under tremendous peer pressure to perform for the integrity of the unit you are with.

Do you face tremendous peer pressure to implement even simplerevenue generating or cost cutting policies management puts in place, or is it all "oh no here they go again with their stupid ideas". Does that attitude poison all those you come in contact with? We had people at United who wouldn't shut down an engine to conserve fuel while taxiing, or would leave the APU running at the gate during the entire turnaround instead of connecting to jetway power to stick it to the "man", and their stupid ideas. Where is that airline version of the corporal or platoon sergeant that gets in your face when if you try this sort of thing. So although we say its the CO's responsibility, its really a shared responsibility.

At what point do you take responsibility for not just yourself and your fellow pilots in Manitoba, and start worrying about the people in the company you work with everyday. What about the FA's and ramp service people at your airline? Do you care about them? What are you doing to insure your company is profitable, stable, and continues to grow, especially in this environment. So spare me the hyperbole of having no honor, do you know what the word even means?


Finally your comments about Fred Smith just show how vast your detachment from reality is. Fed Ex's shipments dropped 75% last year according to some estimates and their is a worldwide slump in shipping. You honestly think that if you owned a business and saw a 75% decrease in demand that you wouldn't have to cut costs? That you would blame yourself for not managing the 75% downturn better?

Fed Ex cut costs by cutting pay and didn't layoff a single pilot but still Fred Smith is the devil according to ALPA. All you have done is set up a no win situation for management. Management must keep the company profitable but labor will reject whatever measures they take. Sounds like a winning system!

Go one preaching the same gospel but don't be surpirsed if you keep getting the same results. I guess 30 odd years and dozens of bankrupt airlines isn't enough of an indicator that not only does management need to change but perhaps labor does also. Complain Spirit's management is not Southwest, but face Spirit's employee group is not Southwest either. If Spirit goes under, so does it managment. Its all managements fault....sure right Rez, keep smokin whatever it is you are smokin, it seems like some really good $hit.

 

[pilotyip]

+1 for Aircobra

Rez this is all nonsense. It ..................Spirit's management is not Southwest, but face Spirit's employee group is not Southwest either. If Spirit goes under, so does it managment. Its all managements fault....sure right Rez, keep smokin whatever it is you are smokin, it seems like some really good $hit.

Nicely said on a completely one-sided board. I always wonder, if these guys/gals have all the answers why are they not in management saving the airline industry.

 

[AirCobra]

You worked for UAL before you cut and ran... What are you saying about the UAL pilots? That Glenn is a good guy and the pilots, who took pay cuts and lost thier pensions to keep the company solvant all while Glenn and Co. took bonuses....... that the pilots are what.... say it....

Cut and ran? I was furloughed. Many United pilots that took recalls in '06 got furloughed again.

Who cares about Tilton, you are just back to the same old populist nonsense. If he gave back every penny of his pay and bonuses to each employee we would have gotten a few hundred bucks per person. Big F’in deal. We still would have been at the bottom for customer satisfaction, on time performance, and cost per seat mile.

Well Tilton sure managed the poor corporate culture at United. He managed to outsource it to Skywest, RAH, Mesa, DGS, and Swissport among others. What did you expect when we had the highest labor costs and the lowest productivity in the industry.

 

[AirCobra]

Yes they do. Spirit management sets the tone, if they want a hostile work environment they decide, if they want all parts of the airline on the same team they decide that too. It is not the pilots who decide what type of ramp worker is hired on. You are starting to sound a little uneducated on this topic, and spare us the "I've been fling since whenever" no one cares.

It is funny how during these negotiation/strike threads you can really see the management want to be types pipe right up with ignorant thoughts on topics they really know little if anything about.

Spirit has 20 firm orders for 320's with options for 30 more...the first one shows up March 5 and starts revenue flights on the 14th.

Surprise the personal attacks start. Keep selling the "us against them" line, see where it gets you.

 

[Lear70]

Lets get off the talking points here and talk about attitudes and culture.

Your pay and work conditions will be improved at the airline you work for if you work as a team to make the airline a success, not by some industry wide reciprocity of contracts.

You ever see "Back to School" with Rodney Dangerfield? "Where should we base our imaginary business?" "How about Fantasy Land?" Well, my friend, that's where you're living.

Southwest is the ONLY parallel you can draw where this works because they are the ONLY airline where management shares their success with their employees; jetBlue marginally does so, and only does when that employee group threatens seriously to organize and unionize. No other airline does.

For example: AirTran has made 8- to 9-figure profits 9 of the last 10 years. I have watched as AirTran went from an airline where pilots went OUT OF THEIR WAY, day after day, to help out the company, because the company honored the contract and seemed to be negotiating in good faith to now, where the pilots have NO interest in helping the bottom line by single-engine taxiing, not running the APU, not picking up trips when the airline has deliberately short-staffed, etc, etc. All because the company not only is STILL asking for pay CUTS when they've averaged a $110 Million dollar NET profit YEARLY for 7 of the last 10 years, but also has cut pilot pay with contract re-interpretations, taking reserve days away with little notice to keep pilots as close to guarantee as possible, reassignments galore, and a TON of little quality of life things that really anger people - that's NOT how you motivate your employees to help keep costs down.

The cold, hard facts are that ALPA EF&A have done the analysis and a Cost-of-living increase would cost the company $20-25 Million each year at both AirTran and Spirit. That's just the cost of doing business... Fuel goes up. Catering supplies go up. Parts costs, equipment (aircraft and ground) and gate leases go up. But salaries are supposed to remain flat or go DOWN?

No WONDER pilots are increasingly disinterested in helping out. Now I'd REALLY like for you to explain to me how, when a company is PROFITABLE, it consistently demands LOWER pilot pay and, when it can't get it, TAKES it from the pilots one way or another, just exactly WHY everyone is supposed to continue to go above and beyond to save money and make the operation work?

THAT'S why you and YIP are bashed so hard on this board. You're advocating on taking a pay CUT every year in the equivalent of taking NO raises with increasing costs of living (my money spends substantially less now than it did 10 years ago as I'm now making the same thing I did in 2000), all while your company is making money? Sorry, that's not how it's supposed to work.

If a company is in trouble and losing money ever year? OK, work with the company to remain afloat. Spirit is in no such danger, and neither is AirTran. Your arguments do NOT fit the circumstances.

 

[Kalifornia]

Nicely said on a completely one-sided board. I always wonder, if these guys/gals have all the answers why are they not in management saving the airline industry.

I'm still wondering why your immediate supervisor hasn't slashed your pay to minimum wage. He/she/it is being a pure idiot not to do so with your continued quest on here to downgrade the profession as a hobby any high school drop out yokel should do for the fun of it. Here Pilotyip, here boy, here dog, another piece of jerky boy, now go fly anti-Sulley.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

I'm still wondering why your immediate supervisor hasn't slashed your pay to minimum wage. He/she/it is being a pure idiot not to do so with your continued quest on here to downgrade the profession as a hobby any high school drop out yokel should do for the fun of it. Here Pilotyip, here boy, here dog, another piece of jerky boy, now go fly anti-Sulley.

Kalifornia:
He is his immediate supervisor. He's management! That's why he posts what he posts.
I'll even forward you if you want it, a PM from this ****************************** bag regretting his decision NOT to have crossed the picket line in 83 at CAL!
With over 8000 posts, it's amazing this prick has any time to fire any of his subordinates with all the time he spends on here. I'd say he's management's wet dream, but he is management!

 

[Mike man]

Surprise the personal attacks start. Keep selling the "us against them" line, see where it gets you.

I really didn't think I attacked you in any way, I am sorry.

I don't recall saying anything about us v. them, Spirit could easily have a SWA culture but B. Ben Ballzonyouda nor his cronies want such a place. Years ago folks though SWA would fail, but Herb carved a niche out of the market and out of the book of airline management, he made it a place of synergy and made it a place where employees will bend over backwards while going the extra mile to help in any way they can.

Spirit has every department fighting with each other to cause strife, gate agents telling on pilots and spineless managers who actually believe the gate agents, flight attendants telling on other flight attendants and on pilots, ramp workers telling on pilots and flight attendants...and so on and so forth.

 

[AirCobra]

You ever see "Back to School" with Rodney Dangerfield? "Where should we base our imaginary business?" "How about Fantasy Land?" Well, my friend, that's where you're living.

Southwest is the ONLY parallel you can draw where this works because they are the ONLY airline where management shares their success with their employees; jetBlue marginally does so, and only does when that employee group threatens seriously to organize and unionize. No other airline does.

For example: AirTran has made 8- to 9-figure profits 9 of the last 10 years. I have watched as AirTran went from an airline where pilots went OUT OF THEIR WAY, day after day, to help out the company, because the company honored the contract and seemed to be negotiating in good faith to now, where the pilots have NO interest in helping the bottom line by single-engine taxiing, not running the APU, not picking up trips when the airline has deliberately short-staffed, etc, etc. All because the company not only is STILL asking for pay CUTS when they've averaged a $110 Million dollar NET profit YEARLY for 7 of the last 10 years, but also has cut pilot pay with contract re-interpretations, taking reserve days away with little notice to keep pilots as close to guarantee as possible, reassignments galore, and a TON of little quality of life things that really anger people - that's NOT how you motivate your employees to help keep costs down.

The cold, hard facts are that ALPA EF&A have done the analysis and a Cost-of-living increase would cost the company $20-25 Million each year at both AirTran and Spirit. That's just the cost of doing business... Fuel goes up. Catering supplies go up. Parts costs, equipment (aircraft and ground) and gate leases go up. But salaries are supposed to remain flat or go DOWN?

No WONDER pilots are increasingly disinterested in helping out. Now I'd REALLY like for you to explain to me how, when a company is PROFITABLE, it consistently demands LOWER pilot pay and, when it can't get it, TAKES it from the pilots one way or another, just exactly WHY everyone is supposed to continue to go above and beyond to save money and make the operation work?

THAT'S why you and YIP are bashed so hard on this board. You're advocating on taking a pay CUT every year in the equivalent of taking NO raises with increasing costs of living (my money spends substantially less now than it did 10 years ago as I'm now making the same thing I did in 2000), all while your company is making money? Sorry, that's not how it's supposed to work.

If a company is in trouble and losing money ever year? OK, work with the company to remain afloat. Spirit is in no such danger, and neither is AirTran. Your arguments do NOT fit the circumstances.

So all of this happened in a vacuum? One day Air Tran's mamangement decided "lets furlough and make everyone take paycuts". It seems if you can't discuss the economic realities of the airline industry for at least the past three years that perhaps you are the one living in Fantasy Land. It does not say much for your corporate culture if you are deliberately trying to damage your airline. Did you fail to notice that you will all lose out in the long run if you keep it up. Would you burn down your own house in a neighborhood riot?

In my previous post I mentioned that I thought if Southwest started to lose money they would start doing all the same things you just mentioned at Air Tran. Why hasn't Southwest needed to take those measures yet? Perhaps because they have a long history of working as a team, keeping costs low, customer satisfaction high, and making sound financial decisons. You can't build that overnight with a change in CEO or a lucrative union contract. All a better contract will get Spirit is a temporary increase in pay for the pilots. If nothing else changes in a short time it will be back to furloughs and pay cuts.

Management doesn't provide profits, customers do. Keep working against the customer in an effort to show up mamangement or only for the self interest of your bargining group, and those profits may never return. The attitude you displayed is the ugly side of what ALPA has done. ALPA has pitted your pilot group against managment and against other labor groups at your airline. Its glaring when you mentioned "ALPA told you this", or "ALPA's study shows". Well no duh, ALPA is going to find exactly what it wants to support its myopic argument. Lets wreck the airline until we get a better contract. Great strategy!

If you think Spirit aint in trouble given their stagnation and contraction over the past few years, the econonmy, the lowest customer satifaction in the industry, and serving a depressed market then perhaps you should look outside ALPA's talking points for information.

 

[enigma]

Aircobra, I once believed as you do.

Then my little "flying club" airline was acquired by people interested in IPO's not airline Ops.

Somewhere along the way, I lost the desire to do anything to help them make more money. I do my job in a professional manner; I save fuel, take care of my equipment and pax, etc. That's all.

I've been behind the scenes in the labor/mangement arena. I was a part of a Spirit MEC that attempted to do business with the "labor should partner with management" philosophy. Middle management worked with us, and we achieved small victories, but upper management did nothing more than spit in our eye.

Sorry, aircobra, but management will get the labor relations they desire and deserve.

 

[enigma]

In all honesty our schedules are no worse than any other airline schedule...and we have the one diamond in our expired contract the 4 days off between trips.

The Spirit ALPA Contract has passed its amendable date, nothing more.

We still have a contract and full RLA protection.

I guess what I am wondering mostly is why would we agree to that steaming pile of a contract that management is offering? I would certainly be much more happy with no changes to the current contract and keep the 4 days off then get a huge raise and go to 2 days off between trips...my .02.

We don't agree to a "steaming pile" company proposal. Simple. We keep talking. Striking is NOT a negotiating tool. Striking is a statement of labors choice to resign rather than continue under the current conditions.

We start showing support for ourselves and continue fighting at the table until the NMB decides an agreement is not possible, at which point we strike/resign with our honor and reputations intact. That's all.

If you don't like the system, you have lots of company, but it is what it is.

?

 

[Mike man]

We still have a contract and full RLA protection.

That is the funniest thing I have ever read in my entire life...full RLA protection, what a crock of pooh. The only thing the RLA does is protect management from labor walking off the job, the intent is to protect both sides with no changes is status quo but, as you know, we have had the rules changed on us more than once since we were protected by the full RLA protections...

401(k)
Wheel roll
4 days off

...please explain how the RLA protects us the labor?

 

[AirCobra]

I am curious. What do you guys think will happen during and after the strike? I am skeptical you will just get anything you want, not when an arbitrator looks at what other airlines are doing, the economy, and how many pilots are on the street. I believe that after a few weeks Spirit management will just declare bankruptcy and blame the strike. Spirit pilots will come back to work with no contract instead of a bad contract and somehow ALPA will still proclaim a moral victory. But hey what do I know? You guys have made it evidently clear that despite a history of over 30 years worth of post deregulation labor/management battles with exactly the same outcome, that this time it will somehow be different.

ALPA: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am curious. What do you guys think will happen during and after the strike? I am skeptical you will just get anything you want, not when an arbitrator looks at what other airlines are doing, the economy, and how many pilots are on the street. I believe that after a few weeks Spirit management will just declare bankruptcy and blame the strike. Spirit pilots will come back to work with no contract instead of a bad contract and somehow ALPA will still proclaim a moral victory. But hey what do I know? You guys have made it evidently clear that despite a history of over 30 years worth of post deregulation labor/management battles with exactly the same outcome, that this time it will somehow be different.

ALPA: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Negative. Your weak argument is repetitive all while you expect a different result.



Let's zoom out and look at this from a marco view.

First off, the pushback you are getting is from pilots who work an honorable profession and have a fair and reasonable expectation to be compensated. It is offensive when you come on this board and basically suggest that they continue to live a diminished lifestyle that is not commensurate with the profession. Safety cost money.

In addition, ALPA's E&FA has looked at the company financials and knows what is reasonable and fair to negotiate. Also, the nmb mediator is involved and moderates the negotiations. Simply put, what you can't comprehend is well within guidelines of the law for fairness and reasonability.

Zoom out a bit more and we can see the classic lines of conservative thought in your posts: (not my quote)

Conservatives believe that government must be restrained and controlled precisely because it’s made up of flawed human beings, “the governed.” This is why they’re willing to allow corporations to take powers — like controlling our health-care system — that they would never allow to government. Corporations are essentially independent entities and totally without morality (and, thus, without immorality or evil). Being amoral they’re less dangerous in the conservative mind than a government controlled by humans, particularly the vast majority of people (whom John Adams called “the rabble”) because those people are, at their core, evil.


The conservatives’ core belief is that if our essential (evil) human nature is not restrained by something — God or priests or corporate bosses [? also humans] — harm will come to society. This is why conservative morality is nearly always focused on restraining individual behavior, particularly private behavior (With whom you are having sex and in what positions or ways? What you are smoking, drinking or snorting? Is there a fetus growing inside you?). And why they’re enthusiastic to “privatize” functions of government, taking the commons out of the hands of We the (evil) People and putting it into the hands of morality-neutral corporations that, in their minds, answer only to a mechanistic and morally neutral “free market.”

​

This has been your mantra from day one... putting full faith in the amoral Captains of Industry, including the management team of Spirit Air. Giving them carte blanc all while chiding professional pilots for wanting fair and reasonable compensation afforded them with the constraints of the law.

Another fine example is the bailouts. Conservatives like you have no problem with a Wall St. bailout, even though the suits knew the risk they were taking would be socialized all while they would privatize the gains. Yet when Obama bails out GM suddenly that is bad because of him and the unions involved.

Representation is a fundamental right in the country and unionization provides that. This should be respected by all citizens, yet most, especially conservatives gladly had over their livelihood to another citizen (corporate bosses) because these bosses are amoral, captains of industry, despite the fact that they are human (greedy).

In the end it all comes down to what you choose to believe to provide a level of comfort. However, ignorance is bliss and when one reaches a level of comfort it is really a position of regression. For hard core right wingers, ideology, not reason and logic are the mental processes that "lead the way". The future lies in the past.

 

[Kalifornia]

I am curious. What do you guys think will happen during and after the strike? I am skeptical you will just get anything you want, not when an arbitrator looks at what other airlines are doing, the economy, and how many pilots are on the street. I believe that after a few weeks Spirit management will just declare bankruptcy and blame the strike. Spirit pilots will come back to work with no contract instead of a bad contract and somehow ALPA will still proclaim a moral victory. But hey what do I know? You guys have made it evidently clear that despite a history of over 30 years worth of post deregulation labor/management battles with exactly the same outcome, that this time it will somehow be different.

ALPA: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Righty ho there sport. You got this game called or am I just being sarcastic. I guess the Hawaiian pilots really f**ked up in their new contract their Air GI Joe. Gosh, how could your blanket attitude towards negotiating professional pilot compensation possibly skip over that carrier. That's in addition to completely ignoring the battle scars of broken carriers has an infinite more times to do with the race to the bottom "hey Bob, let's start up airline" investor get rich quick managements teams then with the ranks of professional pilots and their compensation level.

I wouldn't get all cozy in mindset of mentor PilotYip. He's the same nitwit that thinks high school drop out's do fine in this line of career and who also has proclaimed his reckless disregard for Federal Aviation Regulations by stating a pilot should never challenge MEL's. Don't be that unethical dip.

 

[Mike man]

Don't forget Alaska and JetBlue who have both signed new contracts in the last year or so.

 

[relief tube]

I would have more self-pride flipping burgers than working at spirit.

WhyTF does anyone work there? Makes even Airtran look like Delta or SW.

 

[boomlrd]

I am starting to wonder if AirCobra is one of our new "Top Gun" management types? AirCobra, you wouldn't have been a part of Skybus, would you? Then that scam JetAmerica? If so, then his posts are inline with who he is.

 

[AirCobra]

Negative. Your weak argument is repetitive all while you expect a different result.



Let's zoom out and look at this from a marco view.

First off, the pushback you are getting is from pilots who work an honorable profession and have a fair and reasonable expectation to be compensated. It is offensive when you come on this board and basically suggest that they continue to live a diminished lifestyle that is not commensurate with the profession. Safety cost money.

In addition, ALPA's E&FA has looked at the company financials and knows what is reasonable and fair to negotiate. Also, the nmb mediator is involved and moderates the negotiations. Simply put, what you can't comprehend is well within guidelines of the law for fairness and reasonability.

Zoom out a bit more and we can see the classic lines of conservative thought in your posts: (not my quote)

​

This has been your mantra from day one... putting full faith in the amoral Captains of Industry, including the management team of Spirit Air. Giving them carte blanc all while chiding professional pilots for wanting fair and reasonable compensation afforded them with the constraints of the law.

Another fine example is the bailouts. Conservatives like you have no problem with a Wall St. bailout, even though the suits knew the risk they were taking would be socialized all while they would privatize the gains. Yet when Obama bails out GM suddenly that is bad because of him and the unions involved.

Representation is a fundamental right in the country and unionization provides that. This should be respected by all citizens, yet most, especially conservatives gladly had over their livelihood to another citizen (corporate bosses) because these bosses are amoral, captains of industry, despite the fact that they are human (greedy).

In the end it all comes down to what you choose to believe to provide a level of comfort. However, ignorance is bliss and when one reaches a level of comfort it is really a position of regression. For hard core right wingers, ideology, not reason and logic are the mental processes that "lead the way". The future lies in the past.

Flying is an honorable profession, but your post like several others illustrates the problems I am talking about. There is very little willingness to examine situation outside the particular wants and needs of our labor group. Most complaints are legit when taken individually, but when taken as a whole, it becomes part of an very unproductive ALPA generated narrative of "us against them". The insults by some and the very fact you mention that you are offended that someone dares to disagree with you are indicative of why the same cycles have been repeated for over thirty years. What organization thrives where differing opinions are shouted down and or any suggestion of self examination is met with open hostility?

Up to the usual tactics I see Rez of creating arguments to have with yourself. Where did I ever say to give in to management? Here you are talking about the rights of representation like I am calling for Spirit to de- unionize. I am talking about how to make representation stronger, to have more negotiating power by presenting a united front, not of pilots and Spirit and pilots in Manitoba which ostensibly means nothing to Spirit's management, but of Spirit employees with Spirit employees. I said that we needed to foster better teamwork across the board with other labor groups at the SAME airline, not just with pilot groups at other airlines. The airline is your team, your family, your coworker, your job, and your paycheck. Stronger teamwork across the airline presents a stronger front in dealing with management.

I think honor should not be limited to your labor group but should extend to all your actions. Somehow doing what we were hired to do has been equated with being a sellout. Why has it gotten to the point where trying to save fuel, save time, help the customer, or wearing a uniform as outlined in the company handbook you signed in indoc means you are selling out? Unfortunately sticking it to "the man" often also means sticking it to your coworkers. That is the second part of what I am saying. If you are going to demand respect then you have to demonstrate to your coworkers that you are worthy of it, otherwise they will never support you. Do you inhabit a world where airline pilots are not viewed by the rest of the airline as lazy prima donna's? Because I sure don't. I mean its a running joke even among pilots. So we are already starting in the hole with the way we are viewed by our coworkers and management. With that in mind you have to be playing it better and cleaner than the average employee because you already have two strikes against you. What have you personally done to change that perception. Do you think ALPA demands for respect are going to do anything? Respect and honor starts with your personal actions. Teamwork and professionalism are contagious.

Funny you should mention ignorance is bliss because that is what I think is going on here. What was the outcome of the Comair strike, the United strike, or going way back to the Eastern strike? Why should we expect a different result with Spirit? why because ALPA told you? Virtually every airlines labor relations have become nothing more than a Mexican standoff between pilots and management, despite how different the culture and business model of each airline is. That is how ALPA has played it, us against them. Well that only works if the union is strong and face it unions are losing power so that is why ALPA would be willing to add five guys and a DC-8 or 20 guys flying Navajo's in the Yukon, strength in numbers. Problem is every pilot group is not the same, every companies management is not the same, so this ALPA "one size fits all" approach has further weakened the union. Management's gun in this Mexican standoff keeps getting bigger, while ours keeps getting smaller.

What's your solution, add more Beech 1900 pilots, change the government, change the laws, change Washington, change public opinion? then we will get what we want. Wow sounds complicated. How about fostering teamwork among the people you see everyday asnd work toward building your airline so it grows and prospers because growth and profitability are usually the easiest way to get higher wages. How about presenting a company wide front to management that will have more impact than pilots at other airlines supporting your cause with kind words.

Rez I think this is more important than wanking about politics all day. If you or others care to discuss this without insults, talking about right wingers, CIA death squads, or most of the other crap you like to talk about, I am all ears. Lets have a real discussion about us and ALPA and the future of our profession. How about some real self examination, where have we have failed, what we have done that isn't management's fault. Then, and only then, do I think we will be able to move forward. I think we need a fundamental and radical change. The myopia has got to stop, we have to start dealing with how others perceive us, and the strength in numbers paradigm has run its course. Say I am nuts or whatever but I got 30 years of proof showing the same old-same old, just bigger or louder, is still not working. If you can deny 30 years of history, then I am not the one who is nuts.

 

[AirCobra]

Righty ho there sport. You got this game called or am I just being sarcastic. I guess the Hawaiian pilots really f**ked up in their new contract their Air GI Joe. Gosh, how could your blanket attitude towards negotiating professional pilot compensation possibly skip over that carrier. That's in addition to completely ignoring the battle scars of broken carriers has an infinite more times to do with the race to the bottom "hey Bob, let's start up airline" investor get rich quick managements teams then with the ranks of professional pilots and their compensation level.

I wouldn't get all cozy in mindset of mentor PilotYip. He's the same nitwit that thinks high school drop out's do fine in this line of career and who also has proclaimed his reckless disregard for Federal Aviation Regulations by stating a pilot should never challenge MEL's. Don't be that unethical dip.

I just asked for an opinion on how you think this scenario will play out and asked yours and anyone else's. There is no blanket attitude. Spirit exists only as long as it can keep its costs low. It hasn't crossed the hump Southwest and Air Tran did and still ostensibly resides in West Pac, Skybus territory. Every airline starts as a "hey Bob, let's start up airline". Spirit has yet to move past that point.

Spirit can't stagnate otherwise it won't survive. It's going to pour its profits into expansion and new planes, not into increasing overhead to make the pilot group happy. If they can't grow they won't be attractive to loan money too. Its also a horrible time to strike. Airline travel is way down, so I think Spirit can let pilots sit this one out until they give up, and if that fails the old Chapter 11 void the contracts start over again. I don't think Spirit has any real merger potential, so I don't think that will happen, not that would be great for their pilot group either.

As far as PilotYip goes he has probably done more to get pilots jobs than ALPA or you ever have. USA Jet is what it is and he never sold it as anything else, not that I have seen. There are plenty of guys that got their start at USA Jet when they were paying way more than a regional or went there when they couldn't get a job or had been furloughed. Perhaps some people are just more pragmatic than others or maybe have been around the block a few times to know what is the real deal and what is just more smoke being blown up your a$$. ALPA always presents the same narrative, and all I am saying and probably Pilotyip is too, is given the last 30 years, believe that narrative at your own peril.

 

[Lear70]

The problem is that you're one of the only 2 or 3 people advocating a "let's play nice with management even as they continually degrade our income and quality of life even as they are profitable" approach. When you are outnumbered 10 to 1 in your thought process, I would suggest that it's YOUR thought process that's skewed from reality, statistically-speaking.

As far as REAL self-examination of where we have failed as a union? That's easy:

1. Failure to see the dangers of deregulation and have a lobbying group in place to fight it back when it occurred.
2. Failure to see the dangers of Scope degradation and allowing ANY flying to be farmed out from the major airline to any "partner".
3. Failure to see the dangers of lack of Pension Reform and not lobbying strongly enough to protect from the corporate raiding of the Pension funding when markets surged suddenly, providing a nice source of cash for executive bonuses.
4. Failure to provide some type of segregation between bargaining units of a parent Major and its feeders (Delta vs ASA/Comair etc). Thereby having the same parent agent fighting for the same flying between brands and making it difficult for ALPA to engage in any meaningful "take it back" approach to Scope erosion.
5. Failure to enact some type of "minimum acceptable compensation" point for each type of aircraft flying and apply it across the board, no matter how financially solvent (or insolvent) an airline is? Can't afford to pay those pilots that fair wage? Then you shouldn't be in business.
6. Failure to lobby effectively for an end to government subsidizing of airlines and an end to multiple bankruptcy protections for airlines. Airlines should NOT be able to continually fly a route UNDER THE BREAK-EVEN PRICE TO PRODUCE THAT ROUTE and the government should not get to subsidize that route just to get some type of service to rural areas. You want to subsidize an airline? Re-regulate the industry as a whole. Otherwise, let airlines succeed or die based on their ability to be profitable.
7. Failure to create a guild entrance gatekeeper, similar to the AMA or ABA, thereby allowing any kid with deep-pocketed parents to buy their way into a job, regardless of their ability to fly and, more importantly, devaluing that job to those kids who didn't have to work that hard to obtain it. Arguably, if I can spend a summer and get all my ratings while going surfing every afternoon, I submit to you that it's easy to get into this profession and it shouldn't be.

Problems to the above?

Prices would probably double for airline tickets nearly overnight. Of course, arguably, this has needed to happen for some time. This is the ONLY industry I can think of where the price of the product has DECLINED by 50-60% over time as inflation and the CPI increases 2-3% yearly, despite the fact that the cost to produce the product has risen almost linearly with the CPI.

There would be a greatly-diminished demand for the product that would put a lot MORE pilots out of work. Arguably, there's too many of us as it is. See point #7 above.

Management would fight it all tooth and nail. You talk about how we'd solve things that management didn't create? You forget one crucial detail: it's management and the ATA that management created as its lobbying agent that helped obtain almost all of the above issues. Management has been thinking 3-4 steps ahead of pilots for DECADES... that's why the NPRM from the FAA on the increased ATP standards for 121 flying has a loophole in it for future ab-initio programs. They won't be needed for a decade, but the loophole is there and, if it's not closed, we'll be arguing about this in another 12-15 years how we missed yet ANOTHER problem.

Bottom line is that without a HUGE push-back from ALPA (or any large, organized group of pilots), we're NEVER going to get back to where this career was even 15-20 years ago (and yes, I was flying then, too). They've taken SO MUCH over the years, that getting ANY of it back is going to appear to be asking for HUGE gains from management and yes, it will cost a LOT of VERY REAL money to obtain.

YIP and I have had this argument ad-nauseum, you're just coming late to the show. The sad fact is that gaining those things back is going to put 10-15% of the pilot force out of work and shut down a few airlines along the way. It's going to be painful. It's going to be a long and arduous process. But either we do it or we resign ourselves to the fact that we're going to make less and be treated worse than our blue-collar Garbage collectors / plumbers / bus drivers in this country.

You can resign yourself to that after I've retired.

 

[AirCobra]

I am starting to wonder if AirCobra is one of our new "Top Gun" management types? AirCobra, you wouldn't have been a part of Skybus, would you? Then that scam JetAmerica? If so, then his posts are inline with who he is.

Maybe I am just a dumb Jarhead but we used to study previous battles to determine what went wrong so we don't keep making the same mistakes over and over again. Like we learned that frontal assaults on fixed positions are not a good idea so we wouldn't repeatt Pickett's Charge, or that using helicopters for deep attack like the Army does tends not to work out so well, and the variation between Marine helo losses in Iraq and Army helo losses bears this out. So if we start talking about strikes my Jarhead tendency is to look at the past two big ALPA strikes, United and Comair. How did those turn out in the long run? And we are talking about United and Comair here, very large airlines (or at least used to be), not a tiny little discount carrier. So if its "Top Gun" management to look at the past and use those lessons learned so as not to make the same mistakes twice, then I guess I am whatever you say. What do you do when you make decisions, do whatever ALPA tells you, because they still seem pretty much set on more and more Pickett's Charges' to me.

 

[AirCobra]

The problem is that you're one of the only 2 or 3 people advocating a "let's play nice with management even as they continually degrade our income and quality of life even as they are profitable" approach. When you are outnumbered 10 to 1 in your thought process, I would suggest that it's YOUR thought process that's skewed from reality, statistically-speaking.

Statistically speaking is what we have been doing through ALPA over the past 30 years been working? It reminds me of Viet Nam, its never change the strategy, the answer is always more troops. ALPA just wants more membership, strength in numbers. That's it, lets make it bigger and louder and we will be heard. Too bad no one is listening. Isn't it time for a change in strategy? I am outnumbered 10-1, so, what do the 10 have to show in terms of results? If the 10 have no ability for self examination, can't ever change their way of thinking, and keep making the same mistakes over and over, then I am happy I man not part of that 10.

I am saying play nice with your coworkers because an all around team effort will improve your bargaining position much more than support of other pilots from other companies. I am also saying understand market realities that if every industry is in a downturn that you will probably be too, so going to get ugly before it gets better. Finally get off the ALPA Kool Aid and start thinking for yourself, realize that ALPA's one size fits all approach doesn't work. Start thinking about what is best for your airline.

 

[Mike man]

I am starting to wonder if AirCobra is one of our new "Top Gun" management types? AirCobra, you wouldn't have been a part of Skybus, would you? Then that scam JetAmerica? If so, then his posts are inline with who he is.

You are correct...it does sound like his nonsensical rantings, "like in NASCAR there are no points for second place" what a moron, especially with NASCAR...they give out points for taking a pit stop. Anyway...

I should add that the Spirit MEC tried a lets cooperate approach with management, it was at best a complete failure for the pilot group--and a success for the chosen ones.

 

[AirCobra]

You are correct...it does sound like his nonsensical rantings, "like in NASCAR there are no points for second place" what a moron, especially with NASCAR...they give out points for taking a pit stop. Anyway...

I should add that the Spirit MEC tried a lets cooperate approach with management, it was at best a complete failure for the pilot group--and a success for the chosen ones.

As opposed to the totally sesible actions of doing the exact same things over, and over, and over, and over, and expecting a different result. Nope that is not moronic at all.

Did you encourage a let's cooperate approch with other employee groups or lets build a unified front, or did you just worry about your contract and what you can get out of it?

How about you Mike, if it comes to a strike what do you think will happen?

 

[AirCobra]

The problem is that you're one of the only 2 or 3 people advocating a "let's play nice with management even as they continually degrade our income and quality of life even as they are profitable" approach. When you are outnumbered 10 to 1 in your thought process, I would suggest that it's YOUR thought process that's skewed from reality, statistically-speaking.

As far as REAL self-examination of where we have failed as a union? That's easy:

1. Failure to see the dangers of deregulation and have a lobbying group in place to fight it back when it occurred.
2. Failure to see the dangers of Scope degradation and allowing ANY flying to be farmed out from the major airline to any "partner".
3. Failure to see the dangers of lack of Pension Reform and not lobbying strongly enough to protect from the corporate raiding of the Pension funding when markets surged suddenly, providing a nice source of cash for executive bonuses.
4. Failure to provide some type of segregation between bargaining units of a parent Major and its feeders (Delta vs ASA/Comair etc). Thereby having the same parent agent fighting for the same flying between brands and making it difficult for ALPA to engage in any meaningful "take it back" approach to Scope erosion.
5. Failure to enact some type of "minimum acceptable compensation" point for each type of aircraft flying and apply it across the board, no matter how financially solvent (or insolvent) an airline is? Can't afford to pay those pilots that fair wage? Then you shouldn't be in business.
6. Failure to lobby effectively for an end to government subsidizing of airlines and an end to multiple bankruptcy protections for airlines. Airlines should NOT be able to continually fly a route UNDER THE BREAK-EVEN PRICE TO PRODUCE THAT ROUTE and the government should not get to subsidize that route just to get some type of service to rural areas. You want to subsidize an airline? Re-regulate the industry as a whole. Otherwise, let airlines succeed or die based on their ability to be profitable.
7. Failure to create a guild entrance gatekeeper, similar to the AMA or ABA, thereby allowing any kid with deep-pocketed parents to buy their way into a job, regardless of their ability to fly and, more importantly, devaluing that job to those kids who didn't have to work that hard to obtain it. Arguably, if I can spend a summer and get all my ratings while going surfing every afternoon, I submit to you that it's easy to get into this profession and it shouldn't be.

Problems to the above?

Prices would probably double for airline tickets nearly overnight. Of course, arguably, this has needed to happen for some time. This is the ONLY industry I can think of where the price of the product has DECLINED by 50-60% over time as inflation and the CPI increases 2-3% yearly, despite the fact that the cost to produce the product has risen almost linearly with the CPI.

There would be a greatly-diminished demand for the product that would put a lot MORE pilots out of work. Arguably, there's too many of us as it is. See point #7 above.

Management would fight it all tooth and nail. You talk about how we'd solve things that management didn't create? You forget one crucial detail: it's management and the ATA that management created as its lobbying agent that helped obtain almost all of the above issues. Management has been thinking 3-4 steps ahead of pilots for DECADES... that's why the NPRM from the FAA on the increased ATP standards for 121 flying has a loophole in it for future ab-initio programs. They won't be needed for a decade, but the loophole is there and, if it's not closed, we'll be arguing about this in another 12-15 years how we missed yet ANOTHER problem.

Bottom line is that without a HUGE push-back from ALPA (or any large, organized group of pilots), we're NEVER going to get back to where this career was even 15-20 years ago (and yes, I was flying then, too). They've taken SO MUCH over the years, that getting ANY of it back is going to appear to be asking for HUGE gains from management and yes, it will cost a LOT of VERY REAL money to obtain.

YIP and I have had this argument ad-nauseum, you're just coming late to the show. The sad fact is that gaining those things back is going to put 10-15% of the pilot force out of work and shut down a few airlines along the way. It's going to be painful. It's going to be a long and arduous process. But either we do it or we resign ourselves to the fact that we're going to make less and be treated worse than our blue-collar Garbage collectors / plumbers / bus drivers in this country.

You can resign yourself to that after I've retired.

I forgot to add, all around an excellent post. I would like to see something like this from Rez or a strike happy Spirit guy. I get ALPA's magazine and all I see is sunshine an light, never "this is how we F'ed up", so that is why I think no learning ever takes place. It seems ALPA is just trying to sell membership, and I think its because of the misguided belief that strength in numbers and Mexican standoffs with management are the only solutions.

Well I guess I'll just go back to getting shouted down 10-1 now since questioning ALPA's narrative and strategy has no place in pilotdom. Careful with those seven points or you may also get labled a moron.

 

[pilotyip]

So a return to regulation and elimination of a lot of pilot jobs is the answer? Great for senior guys, not too good for anyone else.

 

[Lear70]

So a return to regulation and elimination of a lot of pilot jobs is the answer? Great for senior guys, not too good for anyone else.

It's ONE of the answers. All of them are relatively painful:

1. Re-regulate the industry. Hell, even Crandall admitted that deregulation was an abysmal failure in terms of sustained industry profitability.

2. Implement an industry-wide minimum wage structure. NO ALPA contract gets passed without hourly rates, duty and rest rigs, minimum days off, vacation, and retirement meet the mins set for that equipment type. ALPA has always retained the right of presidential veto of any T.A. reached, although that is seldom used (I think it was used once in over 40+ years).

3. Lobby for a new Federal Law that REQUIRES airlines to price EACH, INDIVIDUAL flight segment AT or ABOVE the price it costs to produce it. Too many airlines flying some routes at a loss just to slow the bleeding until the economy improves or to compete with other people who have lower costs on that route. The problem with that is it artificially depresses the price of the product below the break-even point and airlines go bankrupt doing so, just to file reorganization and come back and do it all again. If an airline were forced to price it break-even or better, they'd have to abandon the route if they couldn't make money on it, thereby allowing the other carrier to raise their price on that route. Customers would hate it, but it would return airlines to profitability, although yes, it would cost jobs (every REASONABLE alternative does).

4. Lobby for a minimum entrance standards for ALL commercial pilots. Similar to the bill that's currently being worked to require an ATP but WITHOUT any loopholes. Dry up the supply artificially.

5. Each, individual pilot commits themselves to raising the industry bar and no one settles for less. This is an ethical argument, for the most part, as human nature is to take care of one's self at the expense of others - survival of the fittest and all that. However, due to the disproportionate numbers of pilots who regularly prove they'll take ANY flying job, undercutting others to get it, this option is pretty much a waste of time.

6. Play nice, hope for the best, and just be happy to have a job. However, this type of thinking is what GOT us to where we are to begin with. Obviously this won't work with the management teams running 99% of the airlines.

You have any better suggestions, Mr. Wizard? (couldn't resist the facetious ending remark, owe you another beer for that one).

 

[Whine Lover]

" So a return to regulation and elimination of a lot of ( sh1tty ) pilot jobs is the answer?"

Sounds good to me.


YKW