IBT 1108 Attempts to take NJASAP funds

[birddogg01]

From what I have read in this thread, my opinion is that you Flops pilots can take that $1.7 mil WE GAVE YOU and go have a big circle jerk with it. I'm glad to be rid of you.

It is patently obvious that Slave was one of the 2 dimwitted culprits - or perhaps the lover of one of them. He has far too much inside information to be otherwise. I used to support you and your cause, but no more.

If you (Flops pilots) don't have any better sense than to see through his lies, you deserve to fail and I hope you do.

Good riddance.

Thanks for the support. That was touching.

 

[birddogg01]

Mat and AJ are good people - they just missed the call on this one by teaming up with the IBT against the NetJets group without so much as a courtesy call to 1108 President Rountree and 1108 Sec/Treas Weeber.

The NetJets pilots left $1.7 Million behind when the discussed and negotiated handover target was between $1.2 and $1.5 Million.

BM lied to Mat and AJ saying the Local was in the red. Mat and AJ didn't cross-check. Events took over when Mat and AJ started hitting the banks without checking with Rountree and Weeber. Then, there is the missing check that was stolen out of the Local and deposited in a CLE bank.

Such is life - The IBT failed

It looks like to me your beef should have been with BM from the beginning. Mat and AJ don't deserve to be slandered on this board. This is only hurting the FLOPs pilot group and creating animosity between the two pilot groups.

 

[Grizz]

It looks like to me your beef should have been with BM from the beginning. Mat and AJ don't deserve to be slandered on this board. This is only hurting the FLOPs pilot group and creating animosity between the two pilot groups.

When you let someone manipulate you into doing something illegal - especially when you are going to eventually run a Local, that is a problem.

When you do so without even checking with people that have been incredibly supportive of you, that's a real problem.

Mat & AJ should have known better. If they were unsure, they should have asked.

 

[vref25]

If the FO leadership was so concerned about the finances of local 1108 why did your now president of local 1108 was the lone man opposed of the motion of hiring an outside auditor to review the local 1108 books from April of 08 to July 11th... Which was is standard business practice of changing leadership. It was done on July 9th at an open board meeting of the E-board of local 1108. I would suspect the minutes are available from your e-board.

Riddle me that batman or slave......

 

[CastofThousands]

It looks like to me your beef should have been with BM from the beginning. Mat and AJ don't deserve to be slandered on this board. This is only hurting the FLOPs pilot group and creating animosity between the two pilot groups.

I couldn't disagree more. I am a big believer it's best to always keep the pilots informed; open, honest, and transparent. Meanwhile, never hesitate to share the reality of the situation and what the group as a whole is facing. They're big boys and girls - they can handle it. Then ask the pilots for help, and lead them.

It's always served the group I've had to lead well and the group has never let one another down. The NetJets pilot have known what their reps are doing and how their doing it 24/7/365 with all the cards on the table. The NetJets pilots have always been used as counsel and consensus at 1108 - in an open form - with direct and continuous dialog to and from their leadership.

If leaders can't handle genuine criticism, offer intellectual solutions and arguments, and then do the right thing, the sooner the pilot group as a whole knows, the better.

Always be open and honest with the pilot group - they are the true engine that moves the machine; company and union. Always make sure they know the challenges they face. With the knowledge and options at hand, the pilots never let good leadership down.

After all, it's the pilots' Union; not the IBT's or Hoffa Jr's. That should never be forgot or misunderstood. The leadership, Hoffa Jr, and the IBT as a whole work for the pilots - not the other way around!

Learn from every situation and press on with the goals ... don't look back and don't look to others ... step it up and close the deal. Only the pilot group can close the deal and I can assure everyone there is a HUGE opportunity here for the Flight Options pilot group.

Don't ever let the IBT think you work for them. THEY WORK FOR YOU, THE PILOTS! Make sure they understand that. If they don't... internal bruising is not off the menu.

All my best,

 

[Intreped1]

What kind of leaders are/were they if did not consult with ALL parties involved?

Plain and simple. They were misled puppets of B.M. for the sneak attack.

Feel sorry for them if you will ,but it proves they weren't worthy enough to really lead or they would not have done what they did.

I wish the FO pilots the best and hope they can become stronger by this and eventually catch up to the caliber of the NJA pilots.

 

[TurboHonda]

What kind of leaders are/were they if did not consult with ALL parties involved?

Plain and simple. They were misled puppets of B.M. for the sneak attack.

Feel sorry for them if you will ,but it proves they weren't worthy enough to really lead or they would not have done what they did.

I wish the FO pilots the best and hope they can become stronger by this and eventually catch up to the caliber of the NJA pilots.

Perhaps you don't mean to, but you're coming across as a bit condescending. The caliber of the FLOPS pilots is just fine.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I will be curious to see what a true IBT only Collective Bargaining Unit will get for the FLOPS pilots during this bargaining cycle.

I still wish you all the best. After reading this board and our own NJASAP I can say that I have read truly disturbing things from many people... many sources.

One thing is certain... It's done now. I still wish the best for the FLOPS guys personally. Going forward, you will be your own worst enemy or invaluable best resource.

Bill Moore is a truck driver. Be prepared to be treated as such. Watch him.

 

[steelersrule74]

The simple fact is, I don't know MS or AM so I will not make comments regarding character. I will also say that early in my time at NJA I was a vocal supporter of Local 284. 284 was my first Union and (being prior military) I was convinced that you support your leaders and have faith.

I was wrong.

I say with all sincerity that it is the job of every pilot to question their leadership. You must be diligent, thorough and relentless. The cost of my blind faith was 3 years of delay and the 2004 POSTA. Any leader of your local must at any time be willing and able to justify their actions. That doesn't mean you agree with them, but it creates the transparency critical for your success.

the pilots at NJA have had direct dealings with IBT and bill moore for several years. It is our considered opinion that while you must work with IBT for your success, allowing them to infiltrate your local is a tactical error with tremendous consequences.

quite frankly, I'm beyond caring about the events of last week. The deal is done, we have our loan and are moving forward. As a fellow pilot and union brother however I must warn you that your Local is now in a very precarious position. A deal to provide you with autonomy and money has been corrupted and now you don't have the first and may not have the second in the future.

It is absolutely critical that in this dangerous time you engage your leadership and ask the hard questions. Do not make the mistake we did of blind obedience. Work together, stay strong and you have a good chance of success. Look the other way and trust bill moore to give you the contract you desire and you will be sorely disappointed.

carry on........

 

[Freedom]

All about Cast of Thousands EGO

I don't want to slam the Man, so I won't.

But if you go back through all of this thread, and view his Posts, especially the one by "Phoenix", you will have a pretty good idea of just how high up the NetJets Pilot's leadership pole this guy sat. As in the top.

Yet he finds it acceptable to start publishing, on a Public Website, financial numbers and membership percentages that if true, could seriously hurt the Flight Options Pilots Negotiating position with our Manangement.

Why would he do such a thing? I thought his Beef was with the National and these two Flight Options Leaders (who by the way, I view as Heroes in this process).

The answer should be pretty obviously to anyone with half a brain. Either the NetJets Leadership was planning to transfer funds that they had no legal right to, into an NJASAP account, and our Leaderships actions stopped them, or what I hope is the case, this former E-Board President had his feelings hurt because the Flight Options Pilots Leaders, under the Direction of the National, went in and made a Preemptive Strike to assure the Resources which rightfully belonged to the remaining IBT 1108 Members (Flight Options Pilots) could not be raided at the 11th hour.

There is absolutely no excuse for the behavior of the former E-Board President on this website which directly hurt the Flight Options Pilots, none.

What he did by revealing confidential numbers (which may or may not be accurate) on this website was the Act of a Child.

The former Executive Board President of the 1108, INTENTIONALLY set out to harm the Flight Options Pilots by revealing this confidential information.

It should be obvious to all that he was placing his EGO ahead of the interests of the Flight Options Pilots.

This action gives a clear picture of the man's True Colors. Now that he is no longer a part of the IBT 1108, he could give a crap about the Flight Options Pilots. When he was the leader of the 1108, he not only wanted the Options Pilots to do well as members of the 1108, but also wanted Citation Shares and FlexJet Pilots to sign up.

This man's EGO seems to be larger than the Mountains around which he lives. And this EGO, is now harming the Flight Options Pilots. That is something I cannot stand by and watch.

I am a Hostage. I sacrificed my Job for this fight. I will not let this former Executive Board President come in here and attempt to harm my fellow Pilots and our Cause unchecked.

That is all.

Freedom is Not Free

 

[Freedom]

Exhibit A

I am concerned with what you aren't being told now.

To summarize your point: The Flight Options leadership NEVER stayed on budget. They were costing over $100,000 a month above Flight Options dues revenues for 2008. And, like the IBT the NetJets cashflow was the "solidarity."

Ironically, all this while a [former] Flight Options MEC Chairman and a Negotiating Committee member wan't paying dues. But, the Flight Options leadership group refused to address the issue until the NetJets Sec/Treas refused to "keep it all under the radar."

I'm having flashbacks of all the sweeping under the rug "solidarity."

The only way to get your contract is to lay down the heat and have solidarity within your pilot group. You can blame whoever you want - but that's the bottom line - it's up to your pilot group; not NetJets and not Hoffa. It's up to the Flight Options pilot group and nobody else.

Getting at least 50% of the Flight Options pilot group to pay dues per the Local 1108 Bylaws would be a great improvement in "solidarity." Otherwise, having the International fund the effort would be another great demonstration of solidarity as well. But, being chickensh!t and deflecting it the NetJets pilot group is truly sad and not very Strong Union.

Whether these numbers are accurate or not is certainly a matter for debate.

But the fact they came from a former Executive Board President of the 1108 (a NetJets Pilot), and were placed onto a Public Message Board, well...

I rest my case.

Freedom is Not Free.

 

[PigPile]

What kind of leaders are/were they if did not consult with ALL parties involved?

Plain and simple. They were misled puppets of B.M. for the sneak attack.

Feel sorry for them if you will ,but it proves they weren't worthy enough to really lead or they would not have done what they did.

I wish the FO pilots the best and hope they can become stronger by this and eventually catch up to the caliber of the NJA pilots.

Yup, that last statement about "caliber" is just what I have been getting from this entire thread. It seems that many NJ pilots look down on the Flops group as a lower class incapable of taking care of themselves.

Great show of support!

And for the dissemination of financial information on a public board. Real classy! No better way to put valuable info into mgmts hands than that.

Again, thanks for the support!

And most of all, telling the pilots to do as they wish with the money left behind (original statement was something about a Circle jk) and another pilot who contributed funds to the RIF pilots asking for the money back when the RIF pilots had nothing to do with this....

Thanks so much for your support!!!

Let it be known that the Flops pilots greatly appreciated the guidance that the NJ pilots provided them through the first two years. That is FACT and not opinion like a lot of what has been posted here.

It just saddens me to see how the average line pilot is being clumped into this mess. And worst of all the RIF pilots.

You can say all you want that there is still support for the Flops pilots, but it is statements like those above and others in this thread that have cast a shadow of doubt in some cases.

Thanks for the support!

 

[boxhauler]

I haven't been on this board for quite awhile, and now I know why. There is no Bull******************** Filter. The best Bull******************** Filter, is using your own real name. That's the biggest failing of this board.

Do you think FLOPS management is not seeing and contributing to this and licking their chops?

Do you think the perps are not here telling a different story?

After law enforcement and the press get the facts out, it may be too late and some more damage may have been done.

FLOPS pilots are in the middle (or thereabouts) of negotiations with management. To leave 1108 at this time would surely add to the time frame of denial of a contract. However, as soon as you guys get a contract, my advice is to do exactly what the Netjets folks did, and pull the plug on those thieving bastards.

The Flight Options pilots I've run across are just as professional, personal and service oriented as any; I would fly with any of them (not the 2 scoundrels or any of their supporters). I've always said that any company that has a union, deserves a union. You guys at FLOPS certainly need one bad. I wish you all good luck and Godspeed. Leadership at the local level is the KEY!

 

[CastofThousands]

I don't want to slam the Man, so I won't.

But if you go back through all of this thread, and view his Posts, especially the one by "Phoenix", you will have a pretty good idea of just how high up the NetJets Pilot's leadership pole this guy sat. As in the top.

Yet he finds it acceptable to start publishing, on a Public Website, financial numbers and membership percentages that if true, could seriously hurt the Flight Options Pilots Negotiating position with our Manangement.

Why would he do such a thing? I thought his Beef was with the National and these two Flight Options Leaders (who by the way, I view as Heroes in this process).

The answer should be pretty obviously to anyone with half a brain. Either the NetJets Leadership was planning to transfer funds that they had no legal right to, into an NJASAP account, and our Leaderships actions stopped them, or what I hope is the case, this former E-Board President had his feelings hurt because the Flight Options Pilots Leaders, under the Direction of the National, went in and made a Preemptive Strike to assure the Resources which rightfully belonged to the remaining IBT 1108 Members (Flight Options Pilots) could not be raided at the 11th hour.

There is absolutely no excuse for the behavior of the former E-Board President on this website which directly hurt the Flight Options Pilots, none.

What he did by revealing confidential numbers on this website makes that fact that our former Flight Options MEC Chairman (not Mat) inadvertently missed a Dues Payment, look like child's play by comparison.

The former Executive Board President of the 1108, INTENTIONALLY set out to harm the Flight Options Pilots by revealing this confidential information.

It should be obviously to all that he was placing his EGO ahead of the interests of the Flight Options Pilots.

This action gives a clear picture of the man's True Colors. Now that he is no longer a part of the IBT 1108, he could give a crap about the Flight Options Pilots. When he was the leader of the 1108, he not only wanted the Options Pilots to do well as members of the 1108, but also wanted Citation Shares and FlexJet Pilots to jion.

This man's EGO seems to be larger than the Mountains around which he lives. And this EGO, is now harming the Flight Options Pilots. That is something I cannot stand by and watch.

I am a Hostage. I sacrificed my Job for this fight. I will not let this former Executive Board President come in here and attempt to harm my fellow Pilots and our Cause unchecked.

That is all.

Freedom is Not Free

Wrong again. We have always made sure the NetJets pilots are informed - very informed; budgets, revenues, expenses, committee participation, volunteer network, voter participation, company participation, you name it. That's always been the Strong Union style.

From its inception the Flight Options leadership demanded that the NetJets leadership group remain at arms length from Flight Options business and politics. That has always been honored as long as it conformed to the bylaws. Anyone that would dispute to the contrary, is nothing short of a liar. I have never attended one Flight Options MEC meeting or bargaining session. Very few NetJets pilots have. Two very capable NetJets negotiators and elected Executive Board members were chased out of Flight Options bargaining (and they both expressed concerns with what they saw). The Flight Options leadership has demanded control of their communications, and with legal counsel review that has always been honored by 1108.

Generally speaking the Flight Options leadership asks/asked for NetJets money, money, and more money. 1108 hired dedicated attorneys and advisors at the request of the Flight Options leadership; Wilder, Wentz and Dubinsky.

Absolutely read all the information - that's the point. What has amazed me this past week is how out of touch and uninformed the Flight Option pilot group appears to be (leadership issue, not pilot issue) with the true behind the scenes workings of their union and its evolution. That's unacceptable, hence my making more posts on FI in 48 hours than I have made in 48 months. If you truly believe informed pilots are a bad thing and have little faith in your pilot group to step up knowing all that facts and the reality of the situation - that says it all. You failed before you started. Truth be told we bargained the NetJets agreements a lot differently than the Flight Options agreement is being negotiated (different methods at the table).

I have all the faith in the world in pilots as long as they get a good shot of reality; the truth, they want the bottom line. A real assessment and the more perspectives the better.

Make no mistake about, the Flight Option leadership has always called the Flight Options shots. The NetJets pilots have simply bank rolled the effort as clearly outlined in these posts, and at the request of the Flight Options group.

A piece of advice: Don't keep pilots in the dark and feed them sh!t - They will eat you alive, as they should.

When I saw what I saw and knowing what I know - there comes a time where you don't allow others to rewrite history to suit their needs. Especially after crawling in bed with the IBT to screw the NetJets pilot group. Note: The IBT and Flight Options pilots that tried this got hit right between the eyes in the end - as it should be.

Deny, deny, deny all you want. But, the Flight Options leadership USED the NetJets pilots and failed to show good faith as the NetJets pilot group was moving on. You can join your posse in turning the tables - BUT, that's when it becomes time to speak out.

The NetJets pilots know the truth can be brutal, but they would rather have the truth and full story. And, that's why they overwhelmingly demonstrate their support on FI and on the flight line. Strong Union has built and run an organization in which EVERY NetJets pilot is proud to associate.

Turn the tables and spin it all you want - but your not doing the Flight Options pilots any good. In the end ignorance comes at their expense. I would suggest you simply deal with them straight up and quit using everyone and everything as an excuse; nobody respects victims of their own self-fulfilling prophecies.

Your successes will be your successes and your failures will be your failures. Attempting to blame your failures on those who have unconditionally supported the Flight Options pilots for years sets a new standard for weak. But of course, we know who will be there to take credit for the successes (IBT).

Weakness will be your failure and harms you and the Flight Options pilot group far more than [full] union disclosure.


Oh, and did someone mention "freedom is not free?"

...

 

[CastofThousands]

Whether these numbers are accurate or not is certainly a matter for debate.

But the fact they came from a former Executive Board President of the 1108 (a NetJets Pilot), and were placed onto a Public Message Board, well...

I rest my case.

Freedom is Not Free.

Weak union leaders fear an informed membership, and those weak leaders always hide behind others who follow blindly. Not to mention those who want to conceal the facts are simply hiding, and hiding from, reality ... weak leaders hide from reality and try to conceal it. Get the Flight Options reality on the table and deal with it, for a change!

You will have to forgive me if I see concealing union information and proper membership disclosure as - very weak! I have little sympathy for people who demonstrate such weaknesses.

Don't be so naive to think your opposition doesn't already have this information. THEY DO.

Furthermore, the more you hide it the more you play into the hands of the IBT's unwillingness to contribute to the Flight Options pilot cause. If the IBT has a $100 million reserve than they simply need to make those commitments public to the Flight Options pilot group.

Quit playing this game so ham fisted and weak - step into it, and step it up FOR THE PILOTS, rather than carry the IBT's dirty laundry in the dark smokey rooms.

Who the hell do you really think you're kidding/fooling? How dumb do you think people involved in the process and the pilots are? Give people more credit, including your opposition, and you'll do better and serve the pilot group much more effectively.

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