IBT 1108 Attempts to take NJASAP funds

[Freedom]

So Say it My Lord.....

Wrong again. We have always made sure the NetJets pilots are informed - very informed; budgets, revenues, expenses, committee participation, volunteer network, voter participation, company participation, you name it. That's always been the Strong Union style.

From its inception the Flight Options leadership demanded that the NetJets leadership group remain at arms length from Flight Options business and politics. That has always been honored as long as it conformed to the bylaws. Anyone that would dispute to the contrary, is nothing short of a liar. I have never attended one Flight Options MEC meeting or bargaining session. Very few NetJets pilots have. Two very capable NetJets negotiators and elected Executive Board members were chased out of Flight Options bargaining (and they both expressed concerns with what they saw). The Flight Options leadership has demanded control of their communications, and with legal counsel review that has always been honored by 1108.

Generally speaking the Flight Options leadership asks/asked for NetJets money, money, and more money. 1108 hired dedicated attorneys and advisors at the request of the Flight Options leadership; Wilder, Wentz and Dubinsky.

Absolutely read all the information - that's the point. What has amazed me this past week is how out of touch and uninformed the Flight Option pilot group appears to be (leadership issue, not pilot issue) with the true behind the scenes workings of their union and its evolution. That's unacceptable, hence my making more posts on FI in 48 hours than I have made in 48 months. If you truly believe informed pilots are a bad thing and have little faith in your pilot group to step up knowing all that facts and the reality of the situation - that says it all. You failed before you started. Truth be told we bargained the NetJets agreements a lot differently than the Flight Options agreement is being negotiated (different methods at the table).

I have all the faith in the world in pilots as long as they get a good shot of reality; the truth, they want the bottom line. A real assessment and the more perspectives the better.

Make no mistake about, the Flight Option leadership has always called the Flight Options shots. The NetJets pilots have simply bank rolled the effort as clearly outlined in these posts, and at the request of the Flight Options group.

A piece of advice: Don't keep pilots in the dark and feed them sh!t - They will eat you alive, as they should.

When I saw what I saw and knowing what I know - there comes a time where you don't allow others to rewrite history to suit their needs. Especially after crawling in bed with the IBT to screw the NetJets pilot group. Note: The IBT and Flight Options pilots that tried this got hit right between the eyes in the end - as it should be.

Deny, deny, deny all you want. But, the Flight Options leadership USED the NetJets pilots and failed to show good faith as the NetJets pilot group was moving on. You can join your posse in turning the tables - BUT, that's when it becomes time to speak out.

The NetJets pilots know the truth can be brutal, but they would rather have the truth and full story. And, that's why they overwhelmingly demonstrate their support on FI and on the flight line. Strong Union has built and run an organization in which EVERY NetJets pilot is proud to associate.

Turn the tables and spin it all you want - but your not doing the Flight Options pilots any good. In the end ignorance comes at their expense. I would suggest you simply deal with them straight up and quit using everyone and everything as an excuse; nobody respects victims of their own self-fulfilling prophecies.

Your successes will be your successes and your failures will be your failures. Attempting to blame your failures on those who have unconditionally supported the Flight Options pilots for years sets a new standard for weak. But of course, we know who will be there to take credit for the successes (IBT).

Weakness will be your failure and harms you and the Flight Options pilot group far more than [full] union disclosure.


Oh, and did someone mention "freedom is not free?"

...

You guys ALWAYS seem to leave out one Critical Element when comparing what you accomplished and what we are trying to accomplish.

This is a First Contract for us. We currently have none of the contract protections you had in place when you closed your deal in 2005.

That includes the ability to challenge Wrongful Terminations. Flight Options Management has been using Terminating Employees as a Weapon to try and intimidate our troops. First they came after individuals, then after a large group.

Unlike the NetJets Pilots who Negotiated that great Contract in 2005, we have been "At Will" Employees throughout this process to a First Contract. You and your fellow Pilots had the protections of an existing Contract while negotiating a better one. A huge advantage.

True, eventually, we have to be willing to lose our jobs, all of us, for us to secure a First Contract. I have already lost mine. Our hope would be that we will be brought back as Hostages when the Contract is signed, but those of us that have been sacrificed by Flight Options Management, have paid a heavy price.

I understand NetJets had around a dozen hostages as well, out of a group of several thousand Pilots. Compare that to us, with the 70 RIF Pilots, Canpass Pilots, and 5 or 6 individuals, for a total of around 100 Hostages, out of a Pilot Group now standing at less than 500.

You can talk high and mighty about your accomplishments over at NetJets, and I will admit, they were indeed impressive. But you were fighting a War in a much different Theater than the Flight Options Pilots are.

Flight Options Management has had many more weapons available to attack us since we do not yet have the protections of an existing contract.

You are correct however that it is indeed the Flight Options Pilots, not our Leadership, not the NetJets Pilots, who will eventually Win this battle. The next few months will be very telling.

Our Leadership has called for support from our Line Pilots during our End Game of Negotiations. The Level of Support they receive, will dictate the quality (or lack there of) of the Contract they will vote on.

Let me say it again; there is a huge difference between negotiating for a First Contract under the RLA, vs a follow up Contract. Fortunately for you, you never had to fight that battle.

Freedom is Not Free

 

[CastofThousands]

Ah, weighing things and outlining [strengths and] weaknesses openly.

The NetJets pilot had plenty of challenges to overcome. For starters, we had NO money and many more the Flight Options pilot have not seen.

Bottom line: the NetJets pilots said "change it now, or let it go away" aka "STFD." That wasn't a bluff and the pilot group's commitment changed NetJets, hopefully forever.

Put reality on the table and deal with it. You either have the juice to get the deal you want, or not. If not, you cut the deal you need. Even the NetJets pilots had to make that tough decision. The NetJets pilots cut the deal we needed in 2005, not the deal we wanted. The reality was we had to evaluate what juice we had and ultimately the pilot group had to decide.

The rest is history,


...

 

[Freedom]

Finally We are in Agreement

Ah, weighing things and outlining [strengths and] weaknesses openly.

The NetJets pilot had plenty of challenges to overcome. For starters, we had NO money and many more the Flight Options pilot have not seen.

Bottom line: the NetJets pilots said "change it now, or let it go away" aka "STFD." That wasn't a bluff and the pilot group's commitment changed NetJets, hopefully forever.

Put reality on the table and deal with it. You either have the juice the get the deal you want, or not. If not, you cut the deal you need. Even the NetJets pilots had to make that tough decision. The NetJets pilots cut the deal we needed in 2005, not the deal we wanted. The reality was we had to evaluate what juice we had and ultimately the pilot group had to decide.

The rest is history,


...

I agree. Unless the remaining Flight Options Pilots are willing to "STFD" they will never get the Contract they deserve.

Of course, it is by no accident that Flight Options Management has gutted the most Vocal Pilots and those they believed had Strong Backbones from the Ranks.

No matter, that is the reality of the day. And those that remain, will need to stand (if I may borrow a NetJets previously used term) with "Ice in their Veins", if they ever hope to see a Contract worth signing.

I'm going to leave it right here Cast of Thousands. Glad we finally found some Common Ground.

Perhaps it is now best that both Pilot Groups put all this ugliness behind them, and move forward with their futures.

Freedom is Not Free

 

[CastofThousands]

I agree. Unless the remaining Flight Options Pilots are willing to "STFD" they will never get the Contract they deserve.

Of course, it is by no accident that Flight Options Management has gutted the most Vocal Pilots and those they believed had Strong Backbones from the Ranks.

No matter, that is the reality of the day. And those that remain, will need to stand (if I may borrow a NetJets previously used term) with "Ice in their Veins", if they ever hope to see a Contract worth signing.

I'm going to leave it right here Cast of Thousands. Glad we finally found some Common Ground.

Perhaps it is now best that both Pilot Groups put all this ugliness behind them, and move forward with their futures.

Freedom is Not Free

I have good friends who are in the group of 70. Make no mistake, that's the most difficult role to play in these union efforts. I continue to grease every skid I can getting Flight Options pilots job interviews at NetJets.

We have added a lot of Flight Options pilots to the NetJets group over the past two years. I have worked closely with NetJets management at the highest levels to make this happen once Flight Options started cutting back two years ago as part of the "Go-Forward" plan; when Flight Options was organized there were over 750 pilots. Now I understand it's less than 500.

I am confident Flight Options pilots will continue to receive strong consideration at NetJets.


...

 

[be-400xpdriver]

Who is the chicken sh*t moderator who changed the name of the thread???

FLOPS pilots try to steal NJA pilots money

 

[netjetwife]

The fair-minded moderators have my support and appreciation. Personally, I think the new title is an improvement as it places the blame closer to where it belongs, instead of on the entire pilotgroup as your words tend to do. Transition Trouble would be my choice.

Furthermore, I was hoping this thread had ended. Everything of value has been said already and any more angry/emotional comments just runs the risk of straining the relationship between the two groups and providing fodder for the FUD mills of F&H. No reasonable person wants that.

With all due respect, gentlemen, could we please go back to discussing how to raise the bar in the fractional industry and provide pilots and their families with the QOL that matches their significant contribution to the industry? Thanks, NJW

 

[Captain Dork]

Whew, that reading was exhausting!

Just for your information...

The IBT takes trusteeship regularily from various locals. I remember when I was a truck driver, while flight instructing, the IBT magazine had five or more cases where the management of a local had got out of hand. The national took over and new leadership was elected or an investigation was begun.

I have often wondered about the truckdriver moniker being thrown around as an insult, that seems a bit caddy.

Also, slander of the Hoffa family seems pretty shallow. Keep in mind James Hoffa Sr. was likely killed because an attempt to rejoin as president the union after being pardoned from a prison sentence. James Jr. went to public school in NW Detroit at Isaac Crary, and Cooley HS,(with my mother) and Wayne State Law School.

These are real people. Their lifestyle in the fifties and early sixties was just slightly upper middle-class, like the engineers and small business people that lived around them. Not quite as colorful as the movie Hoffa.

If the majority of Netjetters want to go on their own, good luck and godspeed. I hope we at FO never do. I think being in a million person labor union is a good idea. Do Netjetters really know what all the national does with the legal department, with lobbying, with political donations.

I have always had the uncomfortable feeling that many pilots feel they are "special" and better than other transportation professionals. Not that I am misssing truckdriving, but if you are driving one of those fuel trucks, or a compressed air truck, your dues paid, are at the level of a PIC at ours.

I was actually pretty impressed by the level of resignation demonstrated by the national.

If a few in the top NJASAP leadership get out of hand, I hope you have a good workable plan to clean it up, of course there will be no "national."

Here's a good losely quoted statement from President Lincoln- "I have found I never have worry much about how a person will respond to having to face adversity, however I've seen often the disturbing moral shortcomings once they have been given power."

 

[gunfyter]

Seems IBT takes trusteeship whenever the national feels there is a serious move to De-Certify. ala Local 2000 and Local 938. Its like it used to be cancelling an AOL membership or cancelling a cable or satellite tv subscription. We want out and they try to force you to stay....

 

[CA1900]

The IBT takes trusteeship regularily from various locals... IBT magazine had five or more cases where the management of a local had got out of hand.

It doesn't strike you as a little disturbing that your local was taken from you before your leaders' first day in office?

I think being in a million person labor union is a good idea. Do Netjetters really know what all the national does with the legal department, with lobbying, with political donations.

We've been with Teamsters for a long time; you bet we know what the national does! We also know that their legal department offered us no support, and it's important that you folks keep counsel for the local. Depending on IBT in that vein would be a mistake, in my opinion.

As for political donations, they are in fact a huge point of contention with a large portion of our pilot group. Who's to say that a pilot group's interests don't run contrary to the other 999,0000 Teamsters' interests? The IBT's political support of GA User Fees was just one example.

My point is that membership in IBT has positives and negatives, and for our pilot group, it made sense to move on. That's a choice for each group to make; what works for us may or may not work for you.

If a few in the top NJASAP leadership get out of hand, I hope you have a good workable plan to clean it up, of course there will be no "national."

Indeed we do. We have procedures in place for recall of officers, if that ever became necessary.

On that note... The only thing I hope you guys take away from this is not to trust anyone blindly. Support your leadership and your union? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask questions, and demand transparency in the union. It's the only way you can make sure they're truly representing your interests. And remember, Local 1108 works for the pilots, not for the IBT. You are IBT's customer, and they work for you! Don't let those roles get reversed.

Good luck.

 

[CastofThousands]

I recall very well the IBT trying to force the NetJets Local 1108 leadership to Washington DC in September of 2005 to sign an IBT TA with NetJets for $75,000 a year for a 5th year Captain.

We told Hoffa Jr, DT, Moore, and NetJets to go have their own "dream $75,000 @ YR 5 Capt. orgy - no deal!"

1108 was in "new local trusteeship" per the IBT Constitution at the time. I caution the Flight Options [rank and file] pilots to know what's going on deep in the organization. It wouldn't surprise me if the same strong arm tactics are tried by the IBT again on the Flight Options pilots.

My greatest concern with what I know happened last week during the separation is that if the pilot union leadership doesn't control the organization and lead - the [rank and file] pilots will get screwed. The Flight Options leadership caved last week to Moore and Hoffa Jr - Don't allow it to happen again; specifically in bargaining or with your money.


...

 

[netjetwife]

CA1900, good post! Guys, a fair contract will be the light at the end of the tunnel that makes the difficult journey worth it in the end. You'll also be stronger as a group for having come thru tough times together. Hang in there! Best Wishes! NJW

 

[NightHauler]

I don't want to slam the

Yet he finds it acceptable to start publishing, on a Public Website, financial numbers and membership percentages that if true, could seriously hurt the Flight Options Pilots Negotiating position with our Manangement.

Why would he do such a thing? I thought his Beef was with the National and these two Flight Options Leaders (who by the way, I view as Heroes in this process).

...The former Executive Board President of the 1108, INTENTIONALLY set out to harm the Flight Options Pilots by revealing this confidential information.

It should be obvious to all that he was placing his EGO ahead of the interests of the Flight Options Pilots.

This man's EGO seems to be larger than the Mountains around which he lives. And this EGO, is now harming the Flight Options Pilots. That is something I cannot stand by and watch.

I am a Hostage. I sacrificed my Job for this fight. I will not let this former Executive Board President come in here and attempt to harm my fellow Pilots and our Cause unchecked.

That is all.

Freedom is Not Free

I think your personal feelings for CastofThousands is blinding your ability to see the truth.

News Flash: Not $1 million dollars, nor $10 million will get you a better bargaining position at the table.

Money has nothing to do with it. As CastofThousands has already explained, when we went to bargain in 2005, we had less than what you have now, and operated out of a one room office.

We were able to get an industry leading contract for one reason: The Pilot Group.

When your pilot group becomes unified, then you will achieve the goals we all wish for you.

Unification can only come from good leadership.

 

[superfly]

I want criminal action!

Those two FLOPS guys need to be charged!

FLOPS guys need new leadership now!

 

[Ultra Grump]

The answer should be pretty obviously to anyone with half a brain. Either the NetJets Leadership was planning to transfer funds that they had no legal right to, into an NJASAP account, and our Leaderships actions stopped them, or what I hope is the case, this former E-Board President had his feelings hurt because the Flight Options Pilots Leaders, under the Direction of the National, went in and made a Preemptive Strike to assure the Resources which rightfully belonged to the remaining IBT 1108 Members (Flight Options Pilots) could not be raided at the 11th hour.

You are a fool. Good luck getting your job back, if you're going to rely on those 2 back-stabbers to do it for you. After what they've done to the NetJets pilot group, I wouldn't put anything past them, including selling you 70 down the river to complete the contract. Open your eyes.

"Heroes?" We shall see.

 

[netjetwife]

How about a full investigation first? There's no reason to skip due process or make this anymore difficult than it already is...

For all we know, they may already be planning to step down in the meantime (putting the good of the pilotgroup first) so that other less distracting leaders can take their place. That would allow the focus to remain on the contract negotiations where it needs to be right now. Hint, hint.