IBT 1108 Attempts to take NJASAP funds

[NJAPLT]

I actually think this discussion is healthy for your pilot group. Any scumbag actions from your union leadership should not be hidden from your pilot group, but instead brought into the public for your pilots to know about. If you agree or disagree with those actions is not the issue, the issue is that these things happened and that you have the right to know about them. This incident demonstrates that any future shady actions will be under a spotlight, and hopefully that knowledge will prevent more unethical incidents by your leadership.

It's good for our group to know about the money grab too. It gives me confidence that the NJASAP and the NJ IBT1108 leadership was watching our backs during this transition, and gives me even more trust in this group to lead us in the future.

This event is also important for any joint ventures between the IBT1108 and the NJASAP, one of the "selling" points that was mentioned to the NJ pilot group before the NJASAP/IBT1108 vote. The Nj pilot group was told that we could still assist the Flops pilots during their contract struggle and enforcement afterwards. Now that these actions have come into the light, it makes it clear to our pilot group that they have to be very careful when considering any joint ventures, at least with the current 1108 leadership in place.

Moral support and technical help should still be given to your organization if asked for. While you guys will sink or swim on your own, it never hurts to ask the lifeguard for a swimming lesson first.

Good luck with your contract guys. The NJASAP pilots wish you the best in your negotiations for a livable wage and a fair contract. The anger is directed at the National IBT and those who were deceived/colaborated with them, not the rank and file pilots of Flight Options.

 

[netjetwife]

I actually think this discussion is healthy for your pilot group. ... If you agree or disagree with those actions is not the issue, the issue is that these things happened and that you have the right to know about them. Good point. There's also a court of public opinion to which we all belong. Business ethics like honoring an Agreement and old-fashioned morality like trusting a reputable partner can certainly be discussed and opinions formed while still recognizing that the legality of a person's actions will be decided in the legal arena. ...

Moral support and technical help should still be given to your organization if asked for. Agreed. While you guys will sink or swim on your own, it never hurts to ask the lifeguard for a swimming lesson first. Nor does it hurt to take the word of locals who know the currents well and have learned thru experience where the dangerous undertow is and how best to avoid it.

Good luck with your contract guys. The NJASAP pilots wish you the best in your negotiations for a livable wage and a fair contract. The anger is directed at the National IBT and those who were deceived/colaborated with them, not the rank and file pilots of Flight Options.

This final point in you post, NJAPLT, bears repeating and I've been glad to see it stressed here by NJ pilots.

 

[TurboHonda]

I actually think this discussion is healthy for your pilot group. Any scumbag actions from your union leadership should not be hidden from your pilot group, but instead brought into the public for your pilots to know about. If you agree or disagree with those actions is not the issue, the issue is that these things happened and that you have the right to know about them. This incident demonstrates that any future shady actions will be under a spotlight, and hopefully that knowledge will prevent more unethical incidents by your leadership.

It's good for our group to know about the money grab too. It gives me confidence that the NJASAP and the NJ IBT1108 leadership was watching our backs during this transition, and gives me even more trust in this group to lead us in the future.

This event is also important for any joint ventures between the IBT1108 and the NJASAP, one of the "selling" points that was mentioned to the NJ pilot group before the NJASAP/IBT1108 vote. The Nj pilot group was told that we could still assist the Flops pilots during their contract struggle and enforcement afterwards. Now that these actions have come into the light, it makes it clear to our pilot group that they have to be very careful when considering any joint ventures, at least with the current 1108 leadership in place.

Moral support and technical help should still be given to your organization if asked for. While you guys will sink or swim on your own, it never hurts to ask the lifeguard for a swimming lesson first.

Good luck with your contract guys. The NJASAP pilots wish you the best in your negotiations for a livable wage and a fair contract. The anger is directed at the National IBT and those who were deceived/colaborated with them, not the rank and file pilots of Flight Options.

Do you really know what the hell you’re talking about? You are obviously a child of the 21st century. You want to try every rumor in the court of uninformed public opinion.

Has it occurred to you that our leaders have been advised by legal counsel to refrain from responding to ignorant drivel like yours? What we have here are good and honorable men caught up in a feeding frenzy of lies, innuendos, and ignorant smut. Like I said in a previous post, the truth will reveal itself.

Your attempt to portray yourself as a caring and unbiased person needs a little work.

Forgive me if I don’t turn to you for moral support and technical help.

 

[CA1900]

Has it occurred to you that our leaders have been advised by legal counsel to refrain from responding to ignorant drivel like yours?

Would that be the very same "legal counsel" that advised them to break the law and that drew up the illegitimate trusteeship paperwork in the first place?

Your attempt to portray yourself as a caring and unbiased person needs a little work.

A lot of us do care about your situation and wanted to help. That's what makes that doublecross all the more hateful.

To reiterate what steelersrule said:

the fact they had to move in secrecy shows the intent to mislead...

If this were a legitimate transaction and a genuine trusteeship, Bill Moore wouldn't have had any reason to swipe the check in a darkened office after sneaking in the back door. He could have walked right to the front door, showed legitimate trusteeship paperwork, and walked right past the security guard we set up to keep undesirables like Moore out.

But it wasn't legitimate paperwork. It was generated solely for the purpose of misleading the banks. It wouldn't have survived the light of day, so it was done in secret in a back room of the local, without the knowledge of the people that were in charge of it that day. You could have waited the four days we agreed upon, but instead, your guys tried to seize financial control early.

It was the moral equivalent of forging a check and emptying your parents' checking account, because you're paranoid that they might write you out of their will!

 

[netjetwife]

Turbo, thanks for the reminder that your leaders may have been advised by legal counsel not to respond at this time. I apologize that I lost sight of that consideration in my interest to hear both sides. Guys please overlook my comment about the current 1108 President not posting here yet. I'd delete it if I could....:0

Sad to say, if one of Moore's goals in telling lies about the NJ leadership was to drive a wedge between the two pilotgroups (which seems very likely) this sniping at one another can certainly create an atmosphere where that is possible. Hopefully, we'll all steer clear of that trap.

 

[NJAPLT]

So they can't talk about what they did, but it was totally above board? Huh?

At the end of the day, I doubt that any charges will be filed, but that is not the issue in my mind. The issue is one of honor, trust and living up to your agreements.

I believe that this was a money grab and a scumbag move by the National IBT, and the 1108 elect participants were either willing partners or were fooled into it. I will stand by my belief that this was a scumbag move done under the radar of the legit 1108 leadership at the time. Actions made in dark rooms are rarely ethical, and I consider them scumbag actions, even if the people who did them are normally very ethical at other times in other situations.

Turbohonda, I understand you see the same actions as totally legit, and while I do not understand why you think this, I respect you for defending that position.

Just to recap, you believe that the IBT national's lawyers ensured everything was both legal and ethical before they took those actions. Am I correct?

Does the paperwork not being filed, the incorrect date on them, and bypassing the 1108 leadership in place at the time constitute a necessary action your leaders elect took, a simple error, or a dishonest move?

If you want to get an unbiased opinion, I don't think you should talk to any NJ pilot, myself included and I make no claim that I am unbiased. Those Flops pilots who were also involved are biased also, so try to keep that in mind when your read there explanations of the events that occurred and why they undertook them.

I see as all of the NJ pilots as the intended victims of the last minute shenanigans that occurred. I'm just calling those actions as I see them, bias and all. Please feel free to disagree with me.

Even with all of this, I still see Flops, Flexjet, Citation Shares, and the many others as brother (and sister) pilots. We are all doing the same basic job, and should support each other in our quests for a good job, fair work rules, and pay commensurate with the responsibility that is placed on our shoulders every day.

No matter if a group is represented by a union or not, or how we feel about the leadership of any particular group, I think this is something we can all agree on.

 

[TurboHonda]

Turbo, thanks for the reminder that your leaders may have been advised by legal counsel not to respond at this time. I apologize that I lost sight of that consideration in my interest to hear both sides. Guys please overlook my comment about the current 1108 President not posting here yet. I'd delete it if I could....:0

Sad to say, if one of Moore's goals in telling lies about the NJ leadership was to drive a wedge between the two pilotgroups (which seems very likely) this sniping at one another can certainly create an atmosphere where that is possible. Hopefully, we'll all steer clear of that trap.

Thank you.

 

[netjetwife]

Turbo, you and your fellow pilots are welcome to my support in these difficult days. Best Wishes! NJW

 

[cougar12]

Mend the Fences

OK everyone can we just let this calm down and let things workout. I understand that the leadership on both sides were shocked and feelings were hurt by the actions and alleged actions of each other. Asking for us to remove our leadership or demanding that they resign is completely inappropriate.
We trust our FO leadership as much as the NJ pilot group trusts theirs. I have stated previously that we will make sure the agreement is fulfilled. I know these two guys personally and they have proved that they are of the highest character and integrity, and they were shocked when they received the information from the IBT. Is it possible that our leadership reacted on some wrong information? Sure it is. They are relatively new in dealing with the IBT compared to NJ leadership. Not to mention a little scared that that the 1108 would be broke at the end of the month. So if they over reacted, I think they deserve a break. No one likes to have their integrity questioned.
All of us know we need the support of NJ pilots and their leadership they have been though all of this before and are a great source of wisdom and knowledge. So lets get the fences mended and move forward to raise the bar!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Turbo, thanks for the reminder that your leaders may have been advised by legal counsel not to respond at this time. I apologize that I lost sight of that consideration in my interest to hear both sides. Guys please overlook my comment about the current 1108 President not posting here yet. I'd delete it if I could....:0

OK, their leaders have been advised, but clearly you have information and opinions from the inside that you don't mind posting on a public message board.

Sad to say, if one of Moore's goals in telling lies about the NJ leadership was to drive a wedge between the two pilotgroups (which seems very likely) this sniping at one another can certainly create an atmosphere where that is possible.

Hopefully, we'll all steer clear of that trap.

The you go with this "we" stuff again. Union leadership's opinion? (You're husband?)

Still, as you don't work there you only get one view to form your opinions on, that of your husband.

Your posts must be a reflection of his opinion. Do the pilots represented by the union really want you posting their leadership's opinion on this board knowing what the source of the information is?

 

[Freedom]

B19 attempting to Silence NetJets Wife

Still, as you don't work there you only get one view to form your opinions on, that of your husband.

Your posts must be a reflection of his opinion. Do the pilots represented by the union really want you posting their leadership's opinion on this board knowing what the source of the information is?

That can only be happening for one reason:

B19 knows how effective NetJets Wife is in combating his FUD against the Flight Options Pilots, and he wants her gone off this website.

He also knows that getting the Wives of the Flight Options Pilots involved and supporting there Flight Options husbands during this critical phase in Negotiations could make the difference between Pilots willing to go to work and "Tow the Line" or hide in their foxholes.

NetJets Wife: Our two Pilot Groups may have had some disagreement how this transition period was handled, but I think we are both in agreement as to who our Common Enemy is.

B19 and his pack of FUD spinners who wish to undermine the efforts of all Pilots to secure Fair Compensation to support their families.

When you are paid a Retainer by a Business like that which B19 receives, you fight for the interests of your client. B19 is just doing what he's paid to do.

If that happens to hurt hundreds or thousands of Pilots and their families, what does he care; he's still getting his money.

Freedom is Not Free

 

[steelersrule74]

Your posts must be a reflection of his opinion. Do the pilots represented by the union really want you posting their leadership's opinion on this board knowing what the source of the information is?

like most, i only occasionally read your drivel because you are insignificant in the struggles of professional pilots to preserve a career worth having. That being said - since you think NJW is only spouting someone else's opinion (i guess you don't think too highly of women or acknowledge they can have their own point of view), i'm curious if you will finally have the courage to tell us poor union folk who YOU work for and whose opinion YOU'RE obviously spouting.

Of course, most of us already have a good idea on the answer but I'm sure the upcoming spin will be entertaining........

 

[B19 Flyer]

like most, i only occasionally read your drivel because you are insignificant in the struggles of professional pilots to preserve a career worth having. That being said - since you think NJW is only spouting someone else's opinion (i guess you don't think too highly of women or acknowledge they can have their own point of view), i'm curious if you will finally have the courage to tell us poor union folk who YOU work for and whose opinion YOU'RE obviously spouting.

Of course, most of us already have a good idea on the answer but I'm sure the upcoming spin will be entertaining........

First, I think very highly of all women, especially those that are accomplished and experienced in their career field. They have valid opinions and add alot to the conversation when they are personally involved and can speak from first hand knowledge.

My wife for example is a corporate officer in a worldwide services company. I would never post on a public board with the inside information I know about her business dealings, and she would never post about mine.

NJW on the other hand speaks freely and posts on public boards about what she knows of union business at Netjets.

It's the source of the information that all of you should be concerned about.

If you haven't asked yourself the question about where she gets her information, you aren't thinking very much about the problem she presents the union on these boards.

Her primary source of information is obviously her husband. As a union volunteer for NJASAP, he would be priviledged to have and share with his wife information and opinions others would not have.

When she posts these on the board, it has to be transparent to all of you where those opinions are coming from.

As far as I'm concerned, she can post her mindless chatter all she wants. But those opinions are coming and highly influenced from somebody inside Netjets with inside information, not a non-employee pilot's wife that doesn't work for the company.

 

[B19 Flyer]

That can only be happening for one reason:

B19 knows how effective NetJets Wife is in combating his FUD against the Flight Options Pilots, and he wants her gone off this website.

He also knows that getting the Wives of the Flight Options Pilots involved and supporting there Flight Options husbands during this critical phase in Negotiations could make the difference between Pilots willing to go to work and "Tow the Line" or hide in their foxholes.

NetJets Wife: Our two Pilot Groups may have had some disagreement how this transition period was handled, but I think we are both in agreement as to who our Common Enemy is.

B19 and his pack of FUD spinners who wish to undermine the efforts of all Pilots to secure Fair Compensation to support their families.

When you are paid a Retainer by a Business like that which B19 receives, you fight for the interests of your client. B19 is just doing what he's paid to do.

If that happens to hurt hundreds or thousands of Pilots and their families, what does he care; he's still getting his money.

Freedom is Not Free

I'm not paid a penny for the entertainment I get posting on these boards and I'm not the only one that thinks her opinions are long winded and off the wall.

If it's acceptable to you that a union leader's wife is dumping opinions and information on this board that could only have come from her husband so be it.

I would think that you would be concerned about ANY member of union leadership posting inside information outside the walls of the internal offices, even if it is through his wife.

 

[realityman]

B19 is on my ignore list, and I don't like seeing his un-informed opinions when someone else quotes him...

BUT

I'd like to extend my thanks to him because after all the divisivness of the past week, he's helping bring everyone back together, as a common enemy tends to unite everyone else.

After all the differing opinions and voices, notice how we all tend to pull together when B19 speaks?

Thank you B19!

 

[Freedom]

Yes, Thank You B19

B19 is on my ignore list, and I don't like seeing his un-informed opinions when someone else quotes him...

BUT

I'd like to extend my thanks to him because after all the divisivness of the past week, he's helping bring everyone back together, as a common enemy tends to unite everyone else.

After all the differing opinions and voices, notice how we all tend to pull together when B19 speaks?

Thank you B19!

For once again showing us who the True Enemy is, for it is you, and the rest of your fellow Management paid hacks trying to keep the Working Man down.

Freedom is Not Free

 

[Semore Butts]

Wow!

You guys Rock!

Have a great weekend!

 

[dime line]

You gotta love it, the fact that B19 is so opposed to a WIFE and that is who he has beef with. You just gotta love it. Way to go NJW!

 

[netjetwife]

...B19 knows how effective NetJets Wife is in combating his FUD against the Flight Options Pilots, and he wants her gone off this website. I can always rely on the common sense and fairness of the pilots who follow the board closely to see the reality thru the slime.

He also knows that getting the Wives of the Flight Options Pilots involved and supporting there Flight Options husbands during this critical phase in Negotiations could make the difference between Pilots willing to go to work and "Tow the Line" or hide in their foxholes. Shack!! (direct hit) Fudspinners know full well that family support for the troops builds morale and is a key component for success.

NetJets Wife: Our two Pilot Groups may have had some disagreement how this transition period was handled, but I think we are both in agreement as to who our Common Enemy is. Absolutely, Freedom.

B19 and his pack of FUD spinners who wish to undermine the efforts of all Pilots to secure Fair Compensation to support their families. B19 spread FUD on the Avantair threads back when those folks talked about organizing, he works hard trying to break the will of the Options pilots, and none of the discerning readers will be surprised if he goes after the next group who tries to raise the bar.

When you are paid a Retainer by a Business like that which B19 receives, you fight for the interests of your client. B19 is just doing what he's paid to do. If that happens to hurt hundreds or thousands of Pilots and their families, what does he care; he's still getting his money. You nailed it!

Freedom is Not Free

Frac wives and children are directly (often negatively) affected by events in the industry and I am resolved to make sure the family perspective is considered. Many thanks to all of you who share that determination. You make your families proud and you give hope to all of your underpaid/overworked peers. NJW

 

[netjetwife]

You gotta love it, the fact that B19 is so opposed to a WIFE and that is who he has beef with. You just gotta love it. Way to go NJW!

Thanks, Dime. I'm just standing up for what is right.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Thanks, Dime. I'm just standing up for what is right.

No, you stand up for what you don't understand. You stand up for the union your husband is a leader of because he gets paid for his volunteer work.

You don't stand up for the fractional or aviation industry.

You have a highly disrespectful opinion of support workers, so it's clear you don't stand up for them.

Get a job in the aviation industry, then you can take claim for working beside and sharing the effort of work that others do.

Until then, post like you are on the sidelines rather than in the middle of all the action and making decisions that others will live by.

Posting inside union information and opinions on public message boards that would mainly be derived from your husband just wreaks of unprofessionalism.

 

[dime line]

point made he busts a WIFES ass and yet I can call him a moron and nothing happens. He isn't in the aviation business, yet he rags on a WIFE of a pilot, he brings up support workers, yet they don't have a say, well how is they don't have a say? I think they have a say just like the pilots, we had a say and voted a union in. Its not the pilots fault the support workers are the way they are.

 

[netjetwife]

Good points, Dime. I think few readers here fail to see exactly what's going on. Those who deal in FUD know just how far they can go. They look for weaker targets that they perceive to be open to attack. I decided early on that supporting you guys trying to raise the bar is worth it.
Attacking a wife just shows his F&H attitude, not to mention his disrespect for those in a support role. Actions speak louder than words. I can stand by my enthusiasm and respect while touring NJA at CMH. It is genuine, as all who met me (lots of non-pilots) are aware. I was also one of the first posters here to report on and support the partnership that formed between the pilots and management workers at NJA. I think the joint committees are a great idea (kudos to all who serve on one) and I hope that the concept will spread throughout the fractional industry.
Hang in there, guys!
NJW

 

[Tree7]

No, you stand up for what you don't understand. You stand up for the union your husband is a leader of because he gets paid for his volunteer work.

You don't stand up for the fractional or aviation industry.

You have a highly disrespectful opinion of support workers, so it's clear you don't stand up for them.

Get a job in the aviation industry, then you can take claim for working beside and sharing the effort of work that others do.

Until then, post like you are on the sidelines rather than in the middle of all the action and making decisions that others will live by.

Posting inside union information and opinions on public message boards that would mainly be derived from your husband just wreaks of unprofessionalism.

B19 Flyer,

Do you have a wife or spouse? While you have tried to denigrate NJW's position on other workers, all you have really done is to show your own derogatory opinion (or lack of understanding), of the people that share and support the lives of the line pilots. NJW HAS a job in the Fractional industry! It is the same type of support role that you are attempting to denigrate her responses for.

When we, (Strong Union) began to organize and discuss things in 2004, we worked with a lot of experienced people who told us some pretty important things. Amongst the group were United pilots who lead the 1985 strike. One of the most valuable lessons we heard, was how important the family/spousal support was to the success of the strike. Many of those who told us this, were not original backers of the concept.

I have no idea why you would denigrate NJW's contributions. I have worked with NJW's husband for the last four years. He worked with me in my role as the Executive Board liason between Training and Management for most of that time. He is a "leader" of this organization because he worked his ass off to make it work, and has the intellectual capability AND experience to make that happen. Quite frankly, he could have had a management position paying far more than he can make in any Union volunteer "paid" position a long time ago.

If you think he got paid enough in his "volunteer" work to cover what he lost in other wages, you would be sadly mistaken. In addition to the real money he could have had, he skipped out on some large chunks of supplemental duty pay, (instructor etc.) because he did not get trained for months because the Union position required too much work, and he CHOSE to do that rather than get the extra pay.

Any pay that members of 1108, or now NJASAP, are paid, is designed primarily to reimburse for other lost opportunities. It has been calculated to approximate the average additional income that our contract provided for actually flying the line and picking up some of the many benefits that we provided contractually, with the additional days work done for the pilots included at a bare minimum pay.

So...., I'm putting a lot of info out, but don't see the same from you......, do people know your name? Are you really a pilot? Do you work for a Fractional company? Would you let me compare your resume to that of NJW's husband? I would guess that the answers are mixed. My name's below. If you are really a Flight Options pilot, who cares about a new contract, feel free to contact some of your leadership and ask for my number. They should all have it, and I would be happy to talk.

Sincerely,


Greg Rountree (aka "Tree")

 

[FLYLOW22]

B19... Meet Tree.

This is gonna be... awesome.

 

[waka]

B19... Meet Tree.

This is gonna be... awesome.

No, B19 has yet to answer directly and legitimately to questions or points, ever. He is an intellectual coward and probably a real life coward.

 

[netjetwife]

Great post, Tree. When you and other SU leaders encouraged family participation in 2004 I knew that it boded well for the pilot group. The wisdom of that decision is apparent today at NJA and across the fractional industry where the bar has been raised. Thanks for all your hard work and dedication! My husband has considered it an honor to work beside you. NJW

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19 Flyer,

Do you have a wife or spouse?

Asked and answered.

While you have tried to denigrate NJW's position on other workers, all you have really done is to show your own derogatory opinion (or lack of understanding), of the people that share and support the lives of the line pilots.

Asked answered, please review her words on the CS pay thread.

NJW HAS a job in the Fractional industry! It is the same type of support role that you are attempting to denigrate her responses for.

Asked and answered.

When we, (Strong Union) began to organize and discuss things in 2004, we worked with a lot of experienced people who told us some pretty important things. Amongst the group were United pilots who lead the 1985 strike. One of the most valuable lessons we heard, was how important the family/spousal support was to the success of the strike. Many of those who told us this, were not original backers of the concept.

Success for the strike, not the success of the company and long term investment for all employees.

I have no idea why you would denigrate NJW's contributions.

Asked and answered, and I feel that the word denigrate and disagree have far different meanings. The word disagree is much more appropriate.

I have worked with NJW's husband for the last four years. He worked with me in my role as the Executive Board liason between Training and Management for most of that time. He is a "leader" of this organization because he worked his ass off to make it work, and has the intellectual capability AND experience to make that happen. Quite frankly, he could have had a management position paying far more than he can make in any Union volunteer "paid" position a long time ago.

If you think he got paid enough in his "volunteer" work to cover what he lost in other wages, you would be sadly mistaken. In addition to the real money he could have had, he skipped out on some large chunks of supplemental duty pay, (instructor etc.) because he did not get trained for months because the Union position required too much work, and he CHOSE to do that rather than get the extra pay.

Any pay that members of 1108, or now NJASAP, are paid, is designed primarily to reimburse for other lost opportunities. It has been calculated to approximate the average additional income that our contract provided for actually flying the line and picking up some of the many benefits that we provided contractually, with the additional days work done for the pilots included at a bare minimum pay.


Asked and answered, but for the sake of current conversation, does the union prorate and reimburse Netjets for the money paid for health insurance and workers comp premiums, taxes and other benefits (vacation, hoildays) like the union reimburses him for time lost flying? It would be fair, don't you agree?

You can review my posts on this question also.

Nobody ever responded because we both know the truth.


So...., I'm putting a lot of info out, but don't see the same from you......, do people know your name?

Asked and answered.

Are you really a pilot?

Asked and answered.

Do you work for a Fractional company?

Asked and answered.

Would you let me compare your resume to that of NJW's husband?

Asked and answered, and I know little of his resume, nor do I care about it. From the posts I read he's an honorable guy. But I reserve the right to disagree with his wife's opinions if she is going to post.

I would guess that the answers are mixed. My name's below.

If you are really a Flight Options pilot, who cares about a new contract, feel free to contact some of your leadership and ask for my number.

Ahh.. no... and I find that funny.

They should all have it, and I would be happy to talk.

No... I've talked to enough MEC leaders to know where they are coming from. You aren't going to change my opinion on unions after a couple of decades in the industry watching unions tear apart companies and families.

If you can't take the time to look through my posts (everything you ask has been answered before, ad nauseum) I'm not going to take the time to respond any deeper.

 

[steelersrule74]

lmao.......

so once again, if the question is:

"is b-19 flyer a fud spewing me-first screw the rest of you Ford and Harrison disciple who takes great joy in the failures of others - so long as his little slice of the pie is good?"

I'd say - asked and answered........

 

[RNObased]

If you can't take the time to look through my posts (everything you ask has been answered before, ad nauseum) I'm not going to take the time to respond any deeper.

B19 you are a complete coward. The man asked you a valid questions and you hide behind the BS statement "asked and answered". If you would man up and actually answer the question you might gain a shread of respect, however the fact that you hide behide something silly, like look through all my old posts, just shows you to be what I always thought you were, a coward.

Grow a spine.