IBT 1108 Attempts to take NJASAP funds

[birddogg01]

From what I have read in this thread, my opinion is that you Flops pilots can take that $1.7 mil WE GAVE YOU and go have a big circle jerk with it. I'm glad to be rid of you.

It is patently obvious that Slave was one of the 2 dimwitted culprits - or perhaps the lover of one of them. He has far too much inside information to be otherwise. I used to support you and your cause, but no more.

If you (Flops pilots) don't have any better sense than to see through his lies, you deserve to fail and I hope you do.

Good riddance.

Thanks for the support. That was touching.

 

[birddogg01]

Mat and AJ are good people - they just missed the call on this one by teaming up with the IBT against the NetJets group without so much as a courtesy call to 1108 President Rountree and 1108 Sec/Treas Weeber.

The NetJets pilots left $1.7 Million behind when the discussed and negotiated handover target was between $1.2 and $1.5 Million.

BM lied to Mat and AJ saying the Local was in the red. Mat and AJ didn't cross-check. Events took over when Mat and AJ started hitting the banks without checking with Rountree and Weeber. Then, there is the missing check that was stolen out of the Local and deposited in a CLE bank.

Such is life - The IBT failed

It looks like to me your beef should have been with BM from the beginning. Mat and AJ don't deserve to be slandered on this board. This is only hurting the FLOPs pilot group and creating animosity between the two pilot groups.

 

[Grizz]

It looks like to me your beef should have been with BM from the beginning. Mat and AJ don't deserve to be slandered on this board. This is only hurting the FLOPs pilot group and creating animosity between the two pilot groups.

When you let someone manipulate you into doing something illegal - especially when you are going to eventually run a Local, that is a problem.

When you do so without even checking with people that have been incredibly supportive of you, that's a real problem.

Mat & AJ should have known better. If they were unsure, they should have asked.

 

[vref25]

If the FO leadership was so concerned about the finances of local 1108 why did your now president of local 1108 was the lone man opposed of the motion of hiring an outside auditor to review the local 1108 books from April of 08 to July 11th... Which was is standard business practice of changing leadership. It was done on July 9th at an open board meeting of the E-board of local 1108. I would suspect the minutes are available from your e-board.

Riddle me that batman or slave......

 

[CastofThousands]

It looks like to me your beef should have been with BM from the beginning. Mat and AJ don't deserve to be slandered on this board. This is only hurting the FLOPs pilot group and creating animosity between the two pilot groups.

I couldn't disagree more. I am a big believer it's best to always keep the pilots informed; open, honest, and transparent. Meanwhile, never hesitate to share the reality of the situation and what the group as a whole is facing. They're big boys and girls - they can handle it. Then ask the pilots for help, and lead them.

It's always served the group I've had to lead well and the group has never let one another down. The NetJets pilot have known what their reps are doing and how their doing it 24/7/365 with all the cards on the table. The NetJets pilots have always been used as counsel and consensus at 1108 - in an open form - with direct and continuous dialog to and from their leadership.

If leaders can't handle genuine criticism, offer intellectual solutions and arguments, and then do the right thing, the sooner the pilot group as a whole knows, the better.

Always be open and honest with the pilot group - they are the true engine that moves the machine; company and union. Always make sure they know the challenges they face. With the knowledge and options at hand, the pilots never let good leadership down.

After all, it's the pilots' Union; not the IBT's or Hoffa Jr's. That should never be forgot or misunderstood. The leadership, Hoffa Jr, and the IBT as a whole work for the pilots - not the other way around!

Learn from every situation and press on with the goals ... don't look back and don't look to others ... step it up and close the deal. Only the pilot group can close the deal and I can assure everyone there is a HUGE opportunity here for the Flight Options pilot group.

Don't ever let the IBT think you work for them. THEY WORK FOR YOU, THE PILOTS! Make sure they understand that. If they don't... internal bruising is not off the menu.

All my best,

 

[Intreped1]

What kind of leaders are/were they if did not consult with ALL parties involved?

Plain and simple. They were misled puppets of B.M. for the sneak attack.

Feel sorry for them if you will ,but it proves they weren't worthy enough to really lead or they would not have done what they did.

I wish the FO pilots the best and hope they can become stronger by this and eventually catch up to the caliber of the NJA pilots.

 

[TurboHonda]

What kind of leaders are/were they if did not consult with ALL parties involved?

Plain and simple. They were misled puppets of B.M. for the sneak attack.

Feel sorry for them if you will ,but it proves they weren't worthy enough to really lead or they would not have done what they did.

I wish the FO pilots the best and hope they can become stronger by this and eventually catch up to the caliber of the NJA pilots.

Perhaps you don't mean to, but you're coming across as a bit condescending. The caliber of the FLOPS pilots is just fine.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I will be curious to see what a true IBT only Collective Bargaining Unit will get for the FLOPS pilots during this bargaining cycle.

I still wish you all the best. After reading this board and our own NJASAP I can say that I have read truly disturbing things from many people... many sources.

One thing is certain... It's done now. I still wish the best for the FLOPS guys personally. Going forward, you will be your own worst enemy or invaluable best resource.

Bill Moore is a truck driver. Be prepared to be treated as such. Watch him.

 

[steelersrule74]

The simple fact is, I don't know MS or AM so I will not make comments regarding character. I will also say that early in my time at NJA I was a vocal supporter of Local 284. 284 was my first Union and (being prior military) I was convinced that you support your leaders and have faith.

I was wrong.

I say with all sincerity that it is the job of every pilot to question their leadership. You must be diligent, thorough and relentless. The cost of my blind faith was 3 years of delay and the 2004 POSTA. Any leader of your local must at any time be willing and able to justify their actions. That doesn't mean you agree with them, but it creates the transparency critical for your success.

the pilots at NJA have had direct dealings with IBT and bill moore for several years. It is our considered opinion that while you must work with IBT for your success, allowing them to infiltrate your local is a tactical error with tremendous consequences.

quite frankly, I'm beyond caring about the events of last week. The deal is done, we have our loan and are moving forward. As a fellow pilot and union brother however I must warn you that your Local is now in a very precarious position. A deal to provide you with autonomy and money has been corrupted and now you don't have the first and may not have the second in the future.

It is absolutely critical that in this dangerous time you engage your leadership and ask the hard questions. Do not make the mistake we did of blind obedience. Work together, stay strong and you have a good chance of success. Look the other way and trust bill moore to give you the contract you desire and you will be sorely disappointed.

carry on........

 

[Freedom]

All about Cast of Thousands EGO

I don't want to slam the Man, so I won't.

But if you go back through all of this thread, and view his Posts, especially the one by "Phoenix", you will have a pretty good idea of just how high up the NetJets Pilot's leadership pole this guy sat. As in the top.

Yet he finds it acceptable to start publishing, on a Public Website, financial numbers and membership percentages that if true, could seriously hurt the Flight Options Pilots Negotiating position with our Manangement.

Why would he do such a thing? I thought his Beef was with the National and these two Flight Options Leaders (who by the way, I view as Heroes in this process).

The answer should be pretty obviously to anyone with half a brain. Either the NetJets Leadership was planning to transfer funds that they had no legal right to, into an NJASAP account, and our Leaderships actions stopped them, or what I hope is the case, this former E-Board President had his feelings hurt because the Flight Options Pilots Leaders, under the Direction of the National, went in and made a Preemptive Strike to assure the Resources which rightfully belonged to the remaining IBT 1108 Members (Flight Options Pilots) could not be raided at the 11th hour.

There is absolutely no excuse for the behavior of the former E-Board President on this website which directly hurt the Flight Options Pilots, none.

What he did by revealing confidential numbers (which may or may not be accurate) on this website was the Act of a Child.

The former Executive Board President of the 1108, INTENTIONALLY set out to harm the Flight Options Pilots by revealing this confidential information.

It should be obvious to all that he was placing his EGO ahead of the interests of the Flight Options Pilots.

This action gives a clear picture of the man's True Colors. Now that he is no longer a part of the IBT 1108, he could give a crap about the Flight Options Pilots. When he was the leader of the 1108, he not only wanted the Options Pilots to do well as members of the 1108, but also wanted Citation Shares and FlexJet Pilots to sign up.

This man's EGO seems to be larger than the Mountains around which he lives. And this EGO, is now harming the Flight Options Pilots. That is something I cannot stand by and watch.

I am a Hostage. I sacrificed my Job for this fight. I will not let this former Executive Board President come in here and attempt to harm my fellow Pilots and our Cause unchecked.

That is all.

Freedom is Not Free

 

[Freedom]

Exhibit A

I am concerned with what you aren't being told now.

To summarize your point: The Flight Options leadership NEVER stayed on budget. They were costing over $100,000 a month above Flight Options dues revenues for 2008. And, like the IBT the NetJets cashflow was the "solidarity."

Ironically, all this while a [former] Flight Options MEC Chairman and a Negotiating Committee member wan't paying dues. But, the Flight Options leadership group refused to address the issue until the NetJets Sec/Treas refused to "keep it all under the radar."

I'm having flashbacks of all the sweeping under the rug "solidarity."

The only way to get your contract is to lay down the heat and have solidarity within your pilot group. You can blame whoever you want - but that's the bottom line - it's up to your pilot group; not NetJets and not Hoffa. It's up to the Flight Options pilot group and nobody else.

Getting at least 50% of the Flight Options pilot group to pay dues per the Local 1108 Bylaws would be a great improvement in "solidarity." Otherwise, having the International fund the effort would be another great demonstration of solidarity as well. But, being chickensh!t and deflecting it the NetJets pilot group is truly sad and not very Strong Union.

Whether these numbers are accurate or not is certainly a matter for debate.

But the fact they came from a former Executive Board President of the 1108 (a NetJets Pilot), and were placed onto a Public Message Board, well...

I rest my case.

Freedom is Not Free.

 

[PigPile]

What kind of leaders are/were they if did not consult with ALL parties involved?

Plain and simple. They were misled puppets of B.M. for the sneak attack.

Feel sorry for them if you will ,but it proves they weren't worthy enough to really lead or they would not have done what they did.

I wish the FO pilots the best and hope they can become stronger by this and eventually catch up to the caliber of the NJA pilots.

Yup, that last statement about "caliber" is just what I have been getting from this entire thread. It seems that many NJ pilots look down on the Flops group as a lower class incapable of taking care of themselves.

Great show of support!

And for the dissemination of financial information on a public board. Real classy! No better way to put valuable info into mgmts hands than that.

Again, thanks for the support!

And most of all, telling the pilots to do as they wish with the money left behind (original statement was something about a Circle jk) and another pilot who contributed funds to the RIF pilots asking for the money back when the RIF pilots had nothing to do with this....

Thanks so much for your support!!!

Let it be known that the Flops pilots greatly appreciated the guidance that the NJ pilots provided them through the first two years. That is FACT and not opinion like a lot of what has been posted here.

It just saddens me to see how the average line pilot is being clumped into this mess. And worst of all the RIF pilots.

You can say all you want that there is still support for the Flops pilots, but it is statements like those above and others in this thread that have cast a shadow of doubt in some cases.

Thanks for the support!

 

[boxhauler]

I haven't been on this board for quite awhile, and now I know why. There is no Bull******************** Filter. The best Bull******************** Filter, is using your own real name. That's the biggest failing of this board.

Do you think FLOPS management is not seeing and contributing to this and licking their chops?

Do you think the perps are not here telling a different story?

After law enforcement and the press get the facts out, it may be too late and some more damage may have been done.

FLOPS pilots are in the middle (or thereabouts) of negotiations with management. To leave 1108 at this time would surely add to the time frame of denial of a contract. However, as soon as you guys get a contract, my advice is to do exactly what the Netjets folks did, and pull the plug on those thieving bastards.

The Flight Options pilots I've run across are just as professional, personal and service oriented as any; I would fly with any of them (not the 2 scoundrels or any of their supporters). I've always said that any company that has a union, deserves a union. You guys at FLOPS certainly need one bad. I wish you all good luck and Godspeed. Leadership at the local level is the KEY!

 

[CastofThousands]

I don't want to slam the Man, so I won't.

But if you go back through all of this thread, and view his Posts, especially the one by "Phoenix", you will have a pretty good idea of just how high up the NetJets Pilot's leadership pole this guy sat. As in the top.

Yet he finds it acceptable to start publishing, on a Public Website, financial numbers and membership percentages that if true, could seriously hurt the Flight Options Pilots Negotiating position with our Manangement.

Why would he do such a thing? I thought his Beef was with the National and these two Flight Options Leaders (who by the way, I view as Heroes in this process).

The answer should be pretty obviously to anyone with half a brain. Either the NetJets Leadership was planning to transfer funds that they had no legal right to, into an NJASAP account, and our Leaderships actions stopped them, or what I hope is the case, this former E-Board President had his feelings hurt because the Flight Options Pilots Leaders, under the Direction of the National, went in and made a Preemptive Strike to assure the Resources which rightfully belonged to the remaining IBT 1108 Members (Flight Options Pilots) could not be raided at the 11th hour.

There is absolutely no excuse for the behavior of the former E-Board President on this website which directly hurt the Flight Options Pilots, none.

What he did by revealing confidential numbers on this website makes that fact that our former Flight Options MEC Chairman (not Mat) inadvertently missed a Dues Payment, look like child's play by comparison.

The former Executive Board President of the 1108, INTENTIONALLY set out to harm the Flight Options Pilots by revealing this confidential information.

It should be obviously to all that he was placing his EGO ahead of the interests of the Flight Options Pilots.

This action gives a clear picture of the man's True Colors. Now that he is no longer a part of the IBT 1108, he could give a crap about the Flight Options Pilots. When he was the leader of the 1108, he not only wanted the Options Pilots to do well as members of the 1108, but also wanted Citation Shares and FlexJet Pilots to jion.

This man's EGO seems to be larger than the Mountains around which he lives. And this EGO, is now harming the Flight Options Pilots. That is something I cannot stand by and watch.

I am a Hostage. I sacrificed my Job for this fight. I will not let this former Executive Board President come in here and attempt to harm my fellow Pilots and our Cause unchecked.

That is all.

Freedom is Not Free

Wrong again. We have always made sure the NetJets pilots are informed - very informed; budgets, revenues, expenses, committee participation, volunteer network, voter participation, company participation, you name it. That's always been the Strong Union style.

From its inception the Flight Options leadership demanded that the NetJets leadership group remain at arms length from Flight Options business and politics. That has always been honored as long as it conformed to the bylaws. Anyone that would dispute to the contrary, is nothing short of a liar. I have never attended one Flight Options MEC meeting or bargaining session. Very few NetJets pilots have. Two very capable NetJets negotiators and elected Executive Board members were chased out of Flight Options bargaining (and they both expressed concerns with what they saw). The Flight Options leadership has demanded control of their communications, and with legal counsel review that has always been honored by 1108.

Generally speaking the Flight Options leadership asks/asked for NetJets money, money, and more money. 1108 hired dedicated attorneys and advisors at the request of the Flight Options leadership; Wilder, Wentz and Dubinsky.

Absolutely read all the information - that's the point. What has amazed me this past week is how out of touch and uninformed the Flight Option pilot group appears to be (leadership issue, not pilot issue) with the true behind the scenes workings of their union and its evolution. That's unacceptable, hence my making more posts on FI in 48 hours than I have made in 48 months. If you truly believe informed pilots are a bad thing and have little faith in your pilot group to step up knowing all that facts and the reality of the situation - that says it all. You failed before you started. Truth be told we bargained the NetJets agreements a lot differently than the Flight Options agreement is being negotiated (different methods at the table).

I have all the faith in the world in pilots as long as they get a good shot of reality; the truth, they want the bottom line. A real assessment and the more perspectives the better.

Make no mistake about, the Flight Option leadership has always called the Flight Options shots. The NetJets pilots have simply bank rolled the effort as clearly outlined in these posts, and at the request of the Flight Options group.

A piece of advice: Don't keep pilots in the dark and feed them sh!t - They will eat you alive, as they should.

When I saw what I saw and knowing what I know - there comes a time where you don't allow others to rewrite history to suit their needs. Especially after crawling in bed with the IBT to screw the NetJets pilot group. Note: The IBT and Flight Options pilots that tried this got hit right between the eyes in the end - as it should be.

Deny, deny, deny all you want. But, the Flight Options leadership USED the NetJets pilots and failed to show good faith as the NetJets pilot group was moving on. You can join your posse in turning the tables - BUT, that's when it becomes time to speak out.

The NetJets pilots know the truth can be brutal, but they would rather have the truth and full story. And, that's why they overwhelmingly demonstrate their support on FI and on the flight line. Strong Union has built and run an organization in which EVERY NetJets pilot is proud to associate.

Turn the tables and spin it all you want - but your not doing the Flight Options pilots any good. In the end ignorance comes at their expense. I would suggest you simply deal with them straight up and quit using everyone and everything as an excuse; nobody respects victims of their own self-fulfilling prophecies.

Your successes will be your successes and your failures will be your failures. Attempting to blame your failures on those who have unconditionally supported the Flight Options pilots for years sets a new standard for weak. But of course, we know who will be there to take credit for the successes (IBT).

Weakness will be your failure and harms you and the Flight Options pilot group far more than [full] union disclosure.


Oh, and did someone mention "freedom is not free?"

...

 

[CastofThousands]

Whether these numbers are accurate or not is certainly a matter for debate.

But the fact they came from a former Executive Board President of the 1108 (a NetJets Pilot), and were placed onto a Public Message Board, well...

I rest my case.

Freedom is Not Free.

Weak union leaders fear an informed membership, and those weak leaders always hide behind others who follow blindly. Not to mention those who want to conceal the facts are simply hiding, and hiding from, reality ... weak leaders hide from reality and try to conceal it. Get the Flight Options reality on the table and deal with it, for a change!

You will have to forgive me if I see concealing union information and proper membership disclosure as - very weak! I have little sympathy for people who demonstrate such weaknesses.

Don't be so naive to think your opposition doesn't already have this information. THEY DO.

Furthermore, the more you hide it the more you play into the hands of the IBT's unwillingness to contribute to the Flight Options pilot cause. If the IBT has a $100 million reserve than they simply need to make those commitments public to the Flight Options pilot group.

Quit playing this game so ham fisted and weak - step into it, and step it up FOR THE PILOTS, rather than carry the IBT's dirty laundry in the dark smokey rooms.

Who the hell do you really think you're kidding/fooling? How dumb do you think people involved in the process and the pilots are? Give people more credit, including your opposition, and you'll do better and serve the pilot group much more effectively.

...

 

[Freedom]

So Say it My Lord.....

Wrong again. We have always made sure the NetJets pilots are informed - very informed; budgets, revenues, expenses, committee participation, volunteer network, voter participation, company participation, you name it. That's always been the Strong Union style.

From its inception the Flight Options leadership demanded that the NetJets leadership group remain at arms length from Flight Options business and politics. That has always been honored as long as it conformed to the bylaws. Anyone that would dispute to the contrary, is nothing short of a liar. I have never attended one Flight Options MEC meeting or bargaining session. Very few NetJets pilots have. Two very capable NetJets negotiators and elected Executive Board members were chased out of Flight Options bargaining (and they both expressed concerns with what they saw). The Flight Options leadership has demanded control of their communications, and with legal counsel review that has always been honored by 1108.

Generally speaking the Flight Options leadership asks/asked for NetJets money, money, and more money. 1108 hired dedicated attorneys and advisors at the request of the Flight Options leadership; Wilder, Wentz and Dubinsky.

Absolutely read all the information - that's the point. What has amazed me this past week is how out of touch and uninformed the Flight Option pilot group appears to be (leadership issue, not pilot issue) with the true behind the scenes workings of their union and its evolution. That's unacceptable, hence my making more posts on FI in 48 hours than I have made in 48 months. If you truly believe informed pilots are a bad thing and have little faith in your pilot group to step up knowing all that facts and the reality of the situation - that says it all. You failed before you started. Truth be told we bargained the NetJets agreements a lot differently than the Flight Options agreement is being negotiated (different methods at the table).

I have all the faith in the world in pilots as long as they get a good shot of reality; the truth, they want the bottom line. A real assessment and the more perspectives the better.

Make no mistake about, the Flight Option leadership has always called the Flight Options shots. The NetJets pilots have simply bank rolled the effort as clearly outlined in these posts, and at the request of the Flight Options group.

A piece of advice: Don't keep pilots in the dark and feed them sh!t - They will eat you alive, as they should.

When I saw what I saw and knowing what I know - there comes a time where you don't allow others to rewrite history to suit their needs. Especially after crawling in bed with the IBT to screw the NetJets pilot group. Note: The IBT and Flight Options pilots that tried this got hit right between the eyes in the end - as it should be.

Deny, deny, deny all you want. But, the Flight Options leadership USED the NetJets pilots and failed to show good faith as the NetJets pilot group was moving on. You can join your posse in turning the tables - BUT, that's when it becomes time to speak out.

The NetJets pilots know the truth can be brutal, but they would rather have the truth and full story. And, that's why they overwhelmingly demonstrate their support on FI and on the flight line. Strong Union has built and run an organization in which EVERY NetJets pilot is proud to associate.

Turn the tables and spin it all you want - but your not doing the Flight Options pilots any good. In the end ignorance comes at their expense. I would suggest you simply deal with them straight up and quit using everyone and everything as an excuse; nobody respects victims of their own self-fulfilling prophecies.

Your successes will be your successes and your failures will be your failures. Attempting to blame your failures on those who have unconditionally supported the Flight Options pilots for years sets a new standard for weak. But of course, we know who will be there to take credit for the successes (IBT).

Weakness will be your failure and harms you and the Flight Options pilot group far more than [full] union disclosure.


Oh, and did someone mention "freedom is not free?"

...

You guys ALWAYS seem to leave out one Critical Element when comparing what you accomplished and what we are trying to accomplish.

This is a First Contract for us. We currently have none of the contract protections you had in place when you closed your deal in 2005.

That includes the ability to challenge Wrongful Terminations. Flight Options Management has been using Terminating Employees as a Weapon to try and intimidate our troops. First they came after individuals, then after a large group.

Unlike the NetJets Pilots who Negotiated that great Contract in 2005, we have been "At Will" Employees throughout this process to a First Contract. You and your fellow Pilots had the protections of an existing Contract while negotiating a better one. A huge advantage.

True, eventually, we have to be willing to lose our jobs, all of us, for us to secure a First Contract. I have already lost mine. Our hope would be that we will be brought back as Hostages when the Contract is signed, but those of us that have been sacrificed by Flight Options Management, have paid a heavy price.

I understand NetJets had around a dozen hostages as well, out of a group of several thousand Pilots. Compare that to us, with the 70 RIF Pilots, Canpass Pilots, and 5 or 6 individuals, for a total of around 100 Hostages, out of a Pilot Group now standing at less than 500.

You can talk high and mighty about your accomplishments over at NetJets, and I will admit, they were indeed impressive. But you were fighting a War in a much different Theater than the Flight Options Pilots are.

Flight Options Management has had many more weapons available to attack us since we do not yet have the protections of an existing contract.

You are correct however that it is indeed the Flight Options Pilots, not our Leadership, not the NetJets Pilots, who will eventually Win this battle. The next few months will be very telling.

Our Leadership has called for support from our Line Pilots during our End Game of Negotiations. The Level of Support they receive, will dictate the quality (or lack there of) of the Contract they will vote on.

Let me say it again; there is a huge difference between negotiating for a First Contract under the RLA, vs a follow up Contract. Fortunately for you, you never had to fight that battle.

Freedom is Not Free

 

[CastofThousands]

Ah, weighing things and outlining [strengths and] weaknesses openly.

The NetJets pilot had plenty of challenges to overcome. For starters, we had NO money and many more the Flight Options pilot have not seen.

Bottom line: the NetJets pilots said "change it now, or let it go away" aka "STFD." That wasn't a bluff and the pilot group's commitment changed NetJets, hopefully forever.

Put reality on the table and deal with it. You either have the juice to get the deal you want, or not. If not, you cut the deal you need. Even the NetJets pilots had to make that tough decision. The NetJets pilots cut the deal we needed in 2005, not the deal we wanted. The reality was we had to evaluate what juice we had and ultimately the pilot group had to decide.

The rest is history,


...

 

[Freedom]

Finally We are in Agreement

Ah, weighing things and outlining [strengths and] weaknesses openly.

The NetJets pilot had plenty of challenges to overcome. For starters, we had NO money and many more the Flight Options pilot have not seen.

Bottom line: the NetJets pilots said "change it now, or let it go away" aka "STFD." That wasn't a bluff and the pilot group's commitment changed NetJets, hopefully forever.

Put reality on the table and deal with it. You either have the juice the get the deal you want, or not. If not, you cut the deal you need. Even the NetJets pilots had to make that tough decision. The NetJets pilots cut the deal we needed in 2005, not the deal we wanted. The reality was we had to evaluate what juice we had and ultimately the pilot group had to decide.

The rest is history,


...

I agree. Unless the remaining Flight Options Pilots are willing to "STFD" they will never get the Contract they deserve.

Of course, it is by no accident that Flight Options Management has gutted the most Vocal Pilots and those they believed had Strong Backbones from the Ranks.

No matter, that is the reality of the day. And those that remain, will need to stand (if I may borrow a NetJets previously used term) with "Ice in their Veins", if they ever hope to see a Contract worth signing.

I'm going to leave it right here Cast of Thousands. Glad we finally found some Common Ground.

Perhaps it is now best that both Pilot Groups put all this ugliness behind them, and move forward with their futures.

Freedom is Not Free

 

[CastofThousands]

I agree. Unless the remaining Flight Options Pilots are willing to "STFD" they will never get the Contract they deserve.

Of course, it is by no accident that Flight Options Management has gutted the most Vocal Pilots and those they believed had Strong Backbones from the Ranks.

No matter, that is the reality of the day. And those that remain, will need to stand (if I may borrow a NetJets previously used term) with "Ice in their Veins", if they ever hope to see a Contract worth signing.

I'm going to leave it right here Cast of Thousands. Glad we finally found some Common Ground.

Perhaps it is now best that both Pilot Groups put all this ugliness behind them, and move forward with their futures.

Freedom is Not Free

I have good friends who are in the group of 70. Make no mistake, that's the most difficult role to play in these union efforts. I continue to grease every skid I can getting Flight Options pilots job interviews at NetJets.

We have added a lot of Flight Options pilots to the NetJets group over the past two years. I have worked closely with NetJets management at the highest levels to make this happen once Flight Options started cutting back two years ago as part of the "Go-Forward" plan; when Flight Options was organized there were over 750 pilots. Now I understand it's less than 500.

I am confident Flight Options pilots will continue to receive strong consideration at NetJets.


...

 

[be-400xpdriver]

Who is the chicken sh*t moderator who changed the name of the thread???

FLOPS pilots try to steal NJA pilots money

 

[netjetwife]

The fair-minded moderators have my support and appreciation. Personally, I think the new title is an improvement as it places the blame closer to where it belongs, instead of on the entire pilotgroup as your words tend to do. Transition Trouble would be my choice.

Furthermore, I was hoping this thread had ended. Everything of value has been said already and any more angry/emotional comments just runs the risk of straining the relationship between the two groups and providing fodder for the FUD mills of F&H. No reasonable person wants that.

With all due respect, gentlemen, could we please go back to discussing how to raise the bar in the fractional industry and provide pilots and their families with the QOL that matches their significant contribution to the industry? Thanks, NJW

 

[Captain Dork]

Whew, that reading was exhausting!

Just for your information...

The IBT takes trusteeship regularily from various locals. I remember when I was a truck driver, while flight instructing, the IBT magazine had five or more cases where the management of a local had got out of hand. The national took over and new leadership was elected or an investigation was begun.

I have often wondered about the truckdriver moniker being thrown around as an insult, that seems a bit caddy.

Also, slander of the Hoffa family seems pretty shallow. Keep in mind James Hoffa Sr. was likely killed because an attempt to rejoin as president the union after being pardoned from a prison sentence. James Jr. went to public school in NW Detroit at Isaac Crary, and Cooley HS,(with my mother) and Wayne State Law School.

These are real people. Their lifestyle in the fifties and early sixties was just slightly upper middle-class, like the engineers and small business people that lived around them. Not quite as colorful as the movie Hoffa.

If the majority of Netjetters want to go on their own, good luck and godspeed. I hope we at FO never do. I think being in a million person labor union is a good idea. Do Netjetters really know what all the national does with the legal department, with lobbying, with political donations.

I have always had the uncomfortable feeling that many pilots feel they are "special" and better than other transportation professionals. Not that I am misssing truckdriving, but if you are driving one of those fuel trucks, or a compressed air truck, your dues paid, are at the level of a PIC at ours.

I was actually pretty impressed by the level of resignation demonstrated by the national.

If a few in the top NJASAP leadership get out of hand, I hope you have a good workable plan to clean it up, of course there will be no "national."

Here's a good losely quoted statement from President Lincoln- "I have found I never have worry much about how a person will respond to having to face adversity, however I've seen often the disturbing moral shortcomings once they have been given power."

 

[gunfyter]

Seems IBT takes trusteeship whenever the national feels there is a serious move to De-Certify. ala Local 2000 and Local 938. Its like it used to be cancelling an AOL membership or cancelling a cable or satellite tv subscription. We want out and they try to force you to stay....

 

[CA1900]

The IBT takes trusteeship regularily from various locals... IBT magazine had five or more cases where the management of a local had got out of hand.

It doesn't strike you as a little disturbing that your local was taken from you before your leaders' first day in office?

I think being in a million person labor union is a good idea. Do Netjetters really know what all the national does with the legal department, with lobbying, with political donations.

We've been with Teamsters for a long time; you bet we know what the national does! We also know that their legal department offered us no support, and it's important that you folks keep counsel for the local. Depending on IBT in that vein would be a mistake, in my opinion.

As for political donations, they are in fact a huge point of contention with a large portion of our pilot group. Who's to say that a pilot group's interests don't run contrary to the other 999,0000 Teamsters' interests? The IBT's political support of GA User Fees was just one example.

My point is that membership in IBT has positives and negatives, and for our pilot group, it made sense to move on. That's a choice for each group to make; what works for us may or may not work for you.

If a few in the top NJASAP leadership get out of hand, I hope you have a good workable plan to clean it up, of course there will be no "national."

Indeed we do. We have procedures in place for recall of officers, if that ever became necessary.

On that note... The only thing I hope you guys take away from this is not to trust anyone blindly. Support your leadership and your union? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask questions, and demand transparency in the union. It's the only way you can make sure they're truly representing your interests. And remember, Local 1108 works for the pilots, not for the IBT. You are IBT's customer, and they work for you! Don't let those roles get reversed.

Good luck.

 

[CastofThousands]

I recall very well the IBT trying to force the NetJets Local 1108 leadership to Washington DC in September of 2005 to sign an IBT TA with NetJets for $75,000 a year for a 5th year Captain.

We told Hoffa Jr, DT, Moore, and NetJets to go have their own "dream $75,000 @ YR 5 Capt. orgy - no deal!"

1108 was in "new local trusteeship" per the IBT Constitution at the time. I caution the Flight Options [rank and file] pilots to know what's going on deep in the organization. It wouldn't surprise me if the same strong arm tactics are tried by the IBT again on the Flight Options pilots.

My greatest concern with what I know happened last week during the separation is that if the pilot union leadership doesn't control the organization and lead - the [rank and file] pilots will get screwed. The Flight Options leadership caved last week to Moore and Hoffa Jr - Don't allow it to happen again; specifically in bargaining or with your money.


...

 

[netjetwife]

CA1900, good post! Guys, a fair contract will be the light at the end of the tunnel that makes the difficult journey worth it in the end. You'll also be stronger as a group for having come thru tough times together. Hang in there! Best Wishes! NJW

 

[NightHauler]

I don't want to slam the

Yet he finds it acceptable to start publishing, on a Public Website, financial numbers and membership percentages that if true, could seriously hurt the Flight Options Pilots Negotiating position with our Manangement.

Why would he do such a thing? I thought his Beef was with the National and these two Flight Options Leaders (who by the way, I view as Heroes in this process).

...The former Executive Board President of the 1108, INTENTIONALLY set out to harm the Flight Options Pilots by revealing this confidential information.

It should be obvious to all that he was placing his EGO ahead of the interests of the Flight Options Pilots.

This man's EGO seems to be larger than the Mountains around which he lives. And this EGO, is now harming the Flight Options Pilots. That is something I cannot stand by and watch.

I am a Hostage. I sacrificed my Job for this fight. I will not let this former Executive Board President come in here and attempt to harm my fellow Pilots and our Cause unchecked.

That is all.

Freedom is Not Free

I think your personal feelings for CastofThousands is blinding your ability to see the truth.

News Flash: Not $1 million dollars, nor $10 million will get you a better bargaining position at the table.

Money has nothing to do with it. As CastofThousands has already explained, when we went to bargain in 2005, we had less than what you have now, and operated out of a one room office.

We were able to get an industry leading contract for one reason: The Pilot Group.

When your pilot group becomes unified, then you will achieve the goals we all wish for you.

Unification can only come from good leadership.

 

[superfly]

I want criminal action!

Those two FLOPS guys need to be charged!

FLOPS guys need new leadership now!

 

[Ultra Grump]

The answer should be pretty obviously to anyone with half a brain. Either the NetJets Leadership was planning to transfer funds that they had no legal right to, into an NJASAP account, and our Leaderships actions stopped them, or what I hope is the case, this former E-Board President had his feelings hurt because the Flight Options Pilots Leaders, under the Direction of the National, went in and made a Preemptive Strike to assure the Resources which rightfully belonged to the remaining IBT 1108 Members (Flight Options Pilots) could not be raided at the 11th hour.

You are a fool. Good luck getting your job back, if you're going to rely on those 2 back-stabbers to do it for you. After what they've done to the NetJets pilot group, I wouldn't put anything past them, including selling you 70 down the river to complete the contract. Open your eyes.

"Heroes?" We shall see.

 

[netjetwife]

How about a full investigation first? There's no reason to skip due process or make this anymore difficult than it already is...

For all we know, they may already be planning to step down in the meantime (putting the good of the pilotgroup first) so that other less distracting leaders can take their place. That would allow the focus to remain on the contract negotiations where it needs to be right now. Hint, hint.