I find that type of attitude a sad premonition for the future of your merger with XJT

[Freebrd]

don't forget about Compass gets most of that 35% don't they?

 

[wms]

As a former rep I can tell you that what you said is BS. You have hundreds o pilots. There is no pulse to take by word of mouth, email, crew room visits etc. Regardless, the point is that you don't know if there is a better PBS system! Your MEC won't let it sell itself! That's my only point.

Here's one thing you're not considering, the crj guys had line bidding and went to PBS. If flica PBS was bad they would be looking at the jcba as an opportunity to get line bidding back, hopefully that's what the legacy cal pilots are doing. Just the fact that the crj guys had both, and after comparison want to keep PBS, tells you flica PBS is a good system.

The erj pilots are over-looking the real issue, and that is work rules. What the company is doing is letting us fight over bid systems, and while we're distracted they're hacking away at the rules. It's their usual mo and they're doing it now.

I personally don't care which system we have because the company has been misusing PBS, but our attention needs to be focused on the rules, and that's what will influence my no vote.

From what I've heard from reps the current proposals are big gains for the crj side but will fall short of the erj expectations, so I expect the ta will not pass the first time. But at least we'll know what areas we need to really focus on.

 

[j3tdr1v3r]

And what you are not considering is that the ERJ line bidding system is not the CRJ line bidding system of yore.
Jeebus monkey balls, how many times do we have to say it... Yes, we understand completely that Flica was a gain for your side as compared to your line bidding. Yes, we understand that your Flica system had loopholes currently being exploited. Yes, we understand that this JCBA is a tremendous opportunity to improve upon those loopholes. Under similar circumstances, i would have voted for Flica too. Yes, for the love of giant t1ts, we get it!!! BUT EVEN WITH THOSE CHANGES IT IS A STEP BACKWARD FOR US. How hard is that to understand?
Short of the company agreeing to supply fairy dust, unicorn farts, and personal ball washers along with control of every possible controllable entry in Flica, it is a concession from our side according to our committee research, and discussions of such.

 

[wms]

What makes your system good is the rules. I've seen it and I like it. If you'd get past your own classless vulgarity and read my post you'd understand that.

You're a perfect example of my point. The company knows both sides are passionate about their systems and are going to test how much we are willing to give up in rules to keep the systems we have.

If we don't get that we'll regret getting exactly what we want.

 

[79%N1]

And what you are not considering is that the ERJ line bidding system is not the CRJ line bidding system of yore.
Jeebus monkey balls, how many times do we have to say it... Yes, we understand completely that Flica was a gain for your side as compared to your line bidding. Yes, we understand that your Flica system had loopholes currently being exploited. Yes, we understand that this JCBA is a tremendous opportunity to improve upon those loopholes. Under similar circumstances, i would have voted for Flica too. Yes, for the love of giant t1ts, we get it!!! BUT EVEN WITH THOSE CHANGES IT IS A STEP BACKWARD FOR US. How hard is that to understand?
Short of the company agreeing to supply fairy dust, unicorn farts, and personal ball washers along with control of every possible controllable entry in Flica, it is a concession from our side according to our committee research, and discussions of such.

Other than all your (NON-SENIORITY BASED!) ILIW and SLIWs and QLIWs and PQ5ILW's and we all drop our weekends and holidays and 12 day off lines for Tue-Thur 3 days with 22 days off blah, blah, blah our old line bidding was freakin EXACTLY what yours is. Company publishes lines, pilots browse through hundreds of them hoping a couple contain the right mixture and bid accordingly! Not rocket science. We had the SAME trip touching for vacation and we has (SENIORITY BASED) swapping with open time. Other than all your ILW's, how is it that much different that we cant compare??? Cant all your ILW's be part of a different bidding method?

 

[Nevets]

Why, if it's such a great system, weren't the jungle jet drivers using it already? Obviously, this awesome, fabulous, omnipotent system has been out there a while. If it's so great you'd be saying something like, "We've been using it for years and it's the "bomb".

Instead, the vocal minority is trying sell this unproven system to people that are happy with what they already have.

Why, if Flightline is such a great system, weren't you using it for more than a year? Obviously, this awesome, fabulous, omnipotent system has been out there a while. If it's so great you'd be saying something like, "We've been using it for years and it's the "bomb".

You are still missing the point. That is that you don't even know if it's the bomb or not. And why not? Because your MEC is derelict. Theyve never intended to look into it seriously and this letter proves it. Have they published ANYTHING...ANYTHING about why smartpref is so horrible? Id like to see it. And of not, why not?

 

[Nevets]

Here's one thing you're not considering, the crj guys had line bidding and went to PBS. If flica PBS was bad they would be looking at the jcba as an opportunity to get line bidding back, hopefully that's what the legacy cal pilots are doing. Just the fact that the crj guys had both, and after comparison want to keep PBS, tells you flica PBS is a good system.

The erj pilots are over-looking the real issue, and that is work rules. What the company is doing is letting us fight over bid systems, and while we're distracted they're hacking away at the rules. It's their usual mo and they're doing it now.

I personally don't care which system we have because the company has been misusing PBS, but our attention needs to be focused on the rules, and that's what will influence my no vote.

From what I've heard from reps the current proposals are big gains for the crj side but will fall short of the erj expectations, so I expect the ta will not pass the first time. But at least we'll know what areas we need to really focus on.

Here is what you are overlooking (not your fault since its your MEC who is keeping you in the blind), how do you know that there isn't something better than flightline? Just how there was something better than your old line bidding. Again, it's because your MEC is not open minded and not being a reasonable partner.

 

[Nevets]

Other than all your (NON-SENIORITY BASED!) ILIW and SLIWs and QLIWs and PQ5ILW's and we all drop our weekends and holidays and 12 day off lines for Tue-Thur 3 days with 22 days off blah, blah, blah our old line bidding was freakin EXACTLY what yours is. Company publishes lines, pilots browse through hundreds of them hoping a couple contain the right mixture and bid accordingly! Not rocket science. We had the SAME trip touching for vacation and we has (SENIORITY BASED) swapping with open time. Other than all your ILW's, how is it that much different that we cant compare??? Cant all your ILW's be part of a different bidding method?

Well, the ILIW with minimum positive coverage in the pool display and 60 hour trading floor, the SLIW (both non seniority based) with bd/wd trades, getting MMG during vacation months and add pay make a VERY HUGE difference. Actually, it makes ALL the difference.

 

[Freebrd]

Again, it's because NEVETS is not open minded and not being a reasonable partner.

fixed er for ya, god this thread is getting olddddddddd! neither one y'all will budge so please let it die

 

[Nevets]

fixed er for ya, god this thread is getting olddddddddd! neither one y'all will budge so please let it die

How is your MEC being open minded?

 

[Speedtape]

How is your MEC being open minded?

Crewing Solution's SmartPref has been around since about 2007. How many customers do they have? NONE

Flightline has been in business for about 15 years with many different products. ASA pilots used their line bidding system with the ability to sort from 1999 until early 2008, when Skywest forced their line bidding system on the pilot group.

In early 2009, PrefBid was introduced as a new PBS product and 2 customers were signed right off the bat. In late 2010, ASA signed on as the 3rd customer, and at the time, the largest customer. Since then, they had more than 5 other carriers sign on. Flightline is well established and was purchased by Sabre in early 2011. The product and Company is well established financially, and has the ability to offer necessary support.

The product is functional in real bidding and is well received by pilots at every airline that is a customer.

The ending is the same as the beginning: Crewing Solution's SmartPref has been around since about 2007. How many customers do they have? NONE

The ASA scheduling committee gave it a chance in doing evaluations--twice--in 2008 and then again in 2011/2012.

Quite simply, based on converations with some on that group, SmartPref does not measure up!

No customers, no support, and no proof that SmartPref can run in a live environment is enough evidence for me!

Have your scheduling guru provide feedback on why other airlines did not choose SmartPref in the last 5-6 years of marketing. There are many! Do you really want to be the guniea pig?

 

[Speedtape]

How is your MEC being open minded?

They are basing their decisions on facts, truths and track records! To whence is your MEC basing its open minded decisions on?

 

[www.]

fixed er for ya, god this thread is getting olddddddddd! neither one y'all will budge so please let it die

They are just like me, Obama. Desperate! They are pulling out the stops to try to sell the ASA pilots on SP.

The Pep Boys.... McPickle, Nevets and dojetdriver. It's all about them. It's about control.

 

["GO AROUND"]

^^^^^^
What he said.

nevets - I still don't see you posting facts on how smartpref is so much better than Flightline, but there seems to be plenty of innuendo from your posts. You did state you had reviewed both systems, enlighten us.

never mind

 

[Nevets]

Crewing Solution's SmartPref has been around since about 2007. How many customers do they have? NONE

Flightline has been in business for about 15 years with many different products. ASA pilots used their line bidding system with the ability to sort from 1999 until early 2008, when Skywest forced their line bidding system on the pilot group.

In early 2009, PrefBid was introduced as a new PBS product and 2 customers were signed right off the bat. In late 2010, ASA signed on as the 3rd customer, and at the time, the largest customer. Since then, they had more than 5 other carriers sign on. Flightline is well established and was purchased by Sabre in early 2011. The product and Company is well established financially, and has the ability to offer necessary support.

The product is functional in real bidding and is well received by pilots at every airline that is a customer.

The ending is the same as the beginning: Crewing Solution's SmartPref has been around since about 2007. How many customers do they have? NONE

The ASA scheduling committee gave it a chance in doing evaluations--twice--in 2008 and then again in 2011/2012.

Quite simply, based on converations with some on that group, SmartPref does not measure up!

No customers, no support, and no proof that SmartPref can run in a live environment is enough evidence for me!

Have your scheduling guru provide feedback on why other airlines did not choose SmartPref in the last 5-6 years of marketing. There are many! Do you really want to be the guniea pig?

If getting a power point presentation in 08 is as far as the Asa scheduling committee went back then, that's fine. But circumstances are VASTLY different now. The VERY LEAST they could've done this time around is give it an real hard honest look. And I'm not talking about this half a$$ trip they went on that go them this letter. I'm talking about actually researching the software, looking at the data from the xjt guys, taking the software home, running solutions, etc. It is painfully obvious that your guys did not want to even think about anything other than flight line. It took them months just to respond to this smartpref guy!

 

[Nevets]

Why do you guys keep ignoring the fact that your MEC hasn't told you ANYTHING about smartpref? Why the XJT side is interested in it and why they aren't? Why haven't they provided their pilots with this overwhelming data of evidence against smartpref? Why have they been completely silent? Why is it you have to rely on the opinions of people on flight info rather than your MEC's?

We all know how merchant and speedtape feel about it. But why hasn't your MEC given the courtesy to the XJT MEC to give smartpref an honest look and then tell us all why they looked at it, how they looked at it, what they did to research, how they did it, and their final verdict?

Can ANYBODY answer???

 

[COOPERVANE]

ASA MEC doesn't communicate with anyone.

 

[Speedtape]

ASA MEC doesn't communicate with anyone.

They are restricted to freely communicate because of the Merger Agreement. However, there are emails still going out and I noticed Pilot-to-Pilot volunteers in the crew lounge for the last few weeks.

If you want to know something, there are resources available if you choose to take the time.

 

[Speedtape]

If getting a power point presentation in 08 is as far as the Asa scheduling committee went back then, that's fine. But circumstances are VASTLY different now. The VERY LEAST they could've done this time around is give it an real hard honest look. And I'm not talking about this half a$$ trip they went on that go them this letter. I'm talking about actually researching the software, looking at the data from the xjt guys, taking the software home, running solutions, etc. It is painfully obvious that your guys did not want to even think about anything other than flight line. It took them months just to respond to this smartpref guy!

Where are all the other customers? The data is derived by a few people submitting bids and looking at the results, not from testing a fully operating system. I hope you get SmartPref. It will be your worst nightmare! Keep drinking the Kool-Aid, you have the stains all over your mouth! Would you buy a car without driving it?

 

[j3tdr1v3r]

Would you buy a car without driving it?

No, but if you had narrowed it down to 3 or 4 cars would you research the choices on Car & Driver, Edmunds, and other sources who's job it is to know, research, and understand cars? Or would you just say all those guys are idiots, and I will only look at this car because it's blue, just like my old one.

 

[JumpersAway]

In the end it won't matter. You'll pick your version of PBS for the ERJ, and we will have what we like for the CRJ. In a year, there will be a better foundation for comparison. However, I suspect that the ERJ folks will complain and whine that it sux, and instead of blaming it on crap software, will blame it on PBS as a whole.

The reason the legacy XJet guys don't like our bidding system is because it was on property at ASA...........you guys don't give us credit for $hit, and we're inferior in all aspects, in your eyes. Gimme' a break.......

 

[79%N1]

Gotta agree with Jumpers.....XJT wanted no part of PBS, but their MEC was made to know that they were not getting a contract without it.....so they say 'fine, we're not taking your pbs, though'. It's like, we can't have our way - so you can't have yours. Nevermind that all the XJT guys were so against pbs because of what they heard from the CAL guys, who use a globalized system. So, what are they backing? A globalized system??? Makes no sense. Now they are backing this unproven system to be petty over a system used and liked on this side.....Maybe they can use smartpref on their side and we can compare notes at the next section 6 in a few years.

 

[Nevets]

Gotta agree with Jumpers.....XJT wanted no part of PBS, but their MEC was made to know that they were not getting a contract without it.....so they say 'fine, we're not taking your pbs, though'. It's like, we can't have our way - so you can't have yours. Nevermind that all the XJT guys were so against pbs because of what they heard from the CAL guys, who use a globalized system. So, what are they backing? A globalized system??? Makes no sense. Now they are backing this unproven system to be petty over a system used and liked on this side.....Maybe they can use smartpref on their side and we can compare notes at the next section 6 in a few years.

Most ERJ pilots are AGAINST PBS! But at least the ERJ MEC is open minded enough to look into PBS. They moved from their original position on keeping line bidding. But the crj MEC on the other hand is opposed to even looking at anything else. Who is being unreasonable? Has it occurred to you that maybe the ERJ MEC researched all PBS platforms and came to the conclusion that smartpref is the one platform that can at least retain our QOL, especially considering that they have published the research and taken the risky political stance of even being open to PBS. They have said why each system wouldn't work, including flightline. What has your MEC published? NOTHING! This has nothing to do with petty arguments like, just because you have it we don't want it or our contract is way better than yours so just get on board. In reality, it sounds more like something your MEC would do since they don't seem to want to take their fingers out of their ears and just listen at a differing idea.

 

[79%N1]

. Who is being unreasonable?

You and your MEC!

In fact, I think the push for smartpref is a way to convince us to just take your line bidding. Lesser of 2 evils.

I think our MEC has heard the message loud and clear from their membership......No to smartpref.

And you never answered my question from before......how does a bidding system improve anyones QOL??? It just builds you a schedule. Give me the difference in QOL from flightline and smartpref!

 

[sweptback]

For crying out loud already, Nevets, please get a hobby. One that doesn't involve repeatedly badgering ASA pilots over nonsense.

We have a working PBS that we like. There is no reason for us to change.

Please repeat the above statement until it makes sense to you.

Thanks.

 

[Nevets]

Why hasn't the CRJ MEC communicated anything? Why are they keeping you in the dark?

 

[Redan]

Most ERJ pilots are AGAINST PBS! But at least the ERJ MEC is open minded enough to look into PBS. They moved from their original position on keeping line bidding. But the crj MEC on the other hand is opposed to even looking at anything else. Who is being unreasonable? Has it occurred to you that maybe the ERJ MEC researched all PBS platforms and came to the conclusion that smartpref is the one platform that can at least retain our QOL, especially considering that they have published the research and taken the risky political stance of even being open to PBS. They have said why each system wouldn't work, including flightline. What has your MEC published? NOTHING! This has nothing to do with petty arguments like, just because you have it we don't want it or our contract is way better than yours so just get on board. In reality, it sounds more like something your MEC would do since they don't seem to want to take their fingers out of their ears and just listen at a differing idea.

Talk about not taking your fingers out of your ears. Tell you what brother, how do you fly with them permanently affixed to your external auditory canals? How do you get your headset on? So many of us have provided you with a litany of reasons why this Smartpref does not bear consideration, yet it's like presenting a case to a bar stool. You apparently aren't capable of getting it. Allow me to once again, as succinctly as possible, summarize.

Our MEC is not considering an alternative PBS system because:

1) You NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER change bidding systems during section 6 negotiations. EVER. This is an extremely basic concept. Anyone who cannot grasp is not qualified to be a part of this conversation.

2) ASA already has a proven, tested and effective bidding system. Therefore there is no imperative to waste time considering an alternative, particularly a completely untested product. Or to muddy the waters by presenting such a product to the pilot group. Is this difficult to grasp?

3)The ASA MEC has practical experience with line bidding as well as PBS. They realize the XJT MEC does not. The ASA MEC is sophisticated enough to understand that this issue limits the perspective of the XJT MEC.

4) The ASA MEC completely grasps that it is not the bidding system which is primarily responsible for our quality of life. This comes from WORK RULES. Allow me to restate: QOL is a product of WORK RULES. Again, now listen very carefully sir. It's the WORK RULES dammit, NOT THE BIDDING SYSTEM!!!

5) The ASA MEC fully understand that this constant bickering over bidding systems is a distraction from focus on improving work rules and so is playing right into company's hands. They also realize that company is not willing to consider a return to line bidding. This is why my friend, they choose to downplay this superfluous issue.

Mr. NEVETS, my good friend, If we spent half as much time debating work rule improvements rather than bidding systems then we could really look forward to an improved QOL. However, I believe if we continue to focus on bidding systems, which are a dramatically smaller component of the QOL equation, then we can anticipate an actual retrenchment of QOL. And then we will be stuck with it until the next Section 6 negotiations. Is this what you desire sir?

 

[Nevets]

Talk about not taking your fingers out of your ears. Tell you what brother, how do you fly with them permanently affixed to your external auditory canals? How do you get your headset on? So many of us have provided you with a litany of reasons why this Smartpref does not bear consideration, yet it's like presenting a case to a bar stool. You apparently aren't capable of getting it. Allow me to once again, as succinctly as possible, summarize.

Our MEC is not considering an alternative PBS system because:

1) You NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER change bidding systems during section 6 negotiations. EVER. This is an extremely basic concept. Anyone who cannot grasp is not qualified to be a part of this conversation.

2) ASA already has a proven, tested and effective bidding system. Therefore there is no imperative to waste time considering an alternative, particularly a completely untested product. Or to muddy the waters by presenting such a product to the pilot group. Is this difficult to grasp?

3)The ASA MEC has practical experience with line bidding as well as PBS. They realize the XJT MEC does not. The ASA MEC is sophisticated enough to understand that this issue limits the perspective of the XJT MEC.

4) The ASA MEC completely grasps that it is not the bidding system which is primarily responsible for our quality of life. This comes from WORK RULES. Allow me to restate: QOL is a product of WORK RULES. Again, now listen very carefully sir. It's the WORK RULES dammit, NOT THE BIDDING SYSTEM!!!

5) The ASA MEC fully understand that this constant bickering over bidding systems is a distraction from focus on improving work rules and so is playing right into company's hands. They also realize that company is not willing to consider a return to line bidding. This is why my friend, they choose to downplay this superfluous issue.

Mr. NEVETS, my good friend, If we spent half as much time debating work rule improvements rather than bidding systems then we could really look forward to an improved QOL. However, I believe if we continue to focus on bidding systems, which are a dramatically smaller component of the QOL equation, then we can anticipate an actual retrenchment of QOL. And then we will be stuck with it until the next Section 6 negotiations. Is this what you desire sir?

Listen carefully, I'm saying this again for the 9th time. My only point is this: why hasn't your MEC put out ANY communications about this? If all that you and others like merchant and speedtape is true, then why havent they said it themselves in writing for everyone to read? I know your opinion and everyone else's worthless opinion on the subject, including mine. But what is the opinion of the CRJ MEC? You should be asking yourself why they don't make their opinion known? ESPECIALLY if it agrees with 99% of their pilots like supposedly people on this thread have said? Just a simple question to ask yourselves, why?

 

[IUSTACHECKEM]

Listen carefully, I'm saying this again for the 9th time. My only point is this: why hasn't your MEC put out ANY communications about this? If all that you and others like merchant and speedtape is true, then why havent they said it themselves in writing for everyone to read? I know your opinion and everyone else's worthless opinion on the subject, including mine. But what is the opinion of the CRJ MEC? You should be asking yourself why they don't make their opinion known? ESPECIALLY if it agrees with 99% of their pilots like supposedly people on this thread have said? Just a simple question to ask yourselves, why?

LISTEN....We CRJ guys like PREFBID. We are very happy with it compared to line bid. We have driven the car....we own it.....you didn't like the idea of prefbid...we heard....it is coming anyway....you know....so you don't like anything we have. One day when you can get off your butt, go to your VCR and stop it from flashing 12:00 you may get it.. Until then shut up!

 

[Redan]

Listen carefully, I'm saying this again for the 9th time. My only point is this: why hasn't your MEC put out ANY communications about this? If all that you and others like merchant and speedtape is true, then why havent they said it themselves in writing for everyone to read? I know your opinion and everyone else's worthless opinion on the subject, including mine. But what is the opinion of the CRJ MEC? You should be asking yourself why they don't make their opinion known? ESPECIALLY if it agrees with 99% of their pilots like supposedly people on this thread have said? Just a simple question to ask yourselves, why?

Mr. NEVergETS it, When you are ready to begin discussion of what we need to focus on to make the most of our JCBA going forward, i.e. work rules improvements, then I will be ready. However, until that time I have not one more word to say to you.