I can't understand the low pay

[TXCAP4228]

Exactly my point. When those poverty wages were agreed to many probably thought, hey, I can live with that for a year or less. Upgrade was fast, majors hiring like crazy. Well that is not the case anymore and I too believe regionals will be a long term career choice.

Think about our situation, let's say my husband is on the RJ for the next 8-10 years before major recalls him. It will be a really hard decision to leave a captain slot with seniority for being last place at the major.

Someone's job skills are worth whatever the market will pay for their skills. The market has 2 sides; one is supply and one is demand. You complain that your husband has to accept a job for $19,000 per year.... but HE ACCEPTED THE JOB.

One of the first people to post on this thread asked if it bothered your husband as much as it bothers you.... I think he was asking whether you were interested in the money more than your husband is interested in flying because he loves to fly.

If its about money, tell your husband to go work for a bank. If its not about the money then quit your whining. Because that's exactly what you are doing - whining.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Someone's job skills are worth whatever the market will pay for their skills. The market has 2 sides; one is supply and one is demand. You complain that your husband has to accept a job for $19,000 per year.... but HE ACCEPTED THE JOB

TXCAP, that may be true but the reality is some companies are taking advantage (pimping is the term I like to use) of a person's desire to fly. Most companies desire a four year degree and require the minimum hours needed to qualify. Yet, they offer low wages for those skills and experience. Right or wrong, there are a lot of people willing to work for those wages and compensation. Some do it because of their love of flying, some because they may not have other skills other than flying. Maybe the thought of working a job on the ground terrifies them (for that I completely understand).

Is it OK for Wong Fu over in China to make poop wages to make Nike tennis shoes that he can't even afford? He agreed to do it or was encouraged to do so by his guberment!

I think wifeofpilot is doing a service to people who are thinking about getting into the business. It can be a gut wrenching decision, are you going to do whatever it takes to fly or are you going to hold yourself to a higher standard given the time, money, and effort a person has to put into it? BTW, I am no way advocating sticking it to an employer.

Again, companies are taking advantage of the desire to fly with the major job being the carrot on the end of the stick. That is changing and even though I have no horse in this race, I'm glad to see some people realizing this. We all stand to eventually lose (including management) if we continue to lower our standards and expectations.

Keep your head and your guard up.

 

[wifeofpilot]

Let's see now. My husband was furloughed from the majors
while in initial training. Before that worked for a commuter,
before that a charter, before that flight instructing. He has never made a decent wage since he was 17 years old.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME THAT YOU THINK THAT DOESN'T BOTHER HIM? DO YOU LIVE UNDER A ROCK? Where do you put in 16 years and don't get above 19K? Guess what? I am whining and I don't care.

 

[Whirlwind]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME THAT YOU THINK THAT DOESN'T BOTHER HIM? DO YOU LIVE UNDER A ROCK? Where do you put in 16 years and don't get above 19K?

Pilots, for one...

Jason

 

[SquirrelDog]

Wife

Try park services, they do make crap but people do it becuse they love it. I'd say the pay there is around regional level. Thats just one example...I know there are many more.

Things are the way thery are so either live with it or try to do something about. Maybe you should get a better job and let you husband start up his own aviation buisness. Then you have money and he gets to do what he loves.

If he's never made a descent wage since 17, then how does he know what a descent wage is! Pay can only go up from CFIing so its usually better pay; "live within ones means".

You can always make it work, its just harder at some times

Squirreldog

 

[KickSave]

KickSave, you may not be aware, but the supply of major airline jobs has dwindled quite a bit and will most likely stay that way. There IS no NEXT LEVEL. Once you get to the regionals and fly a 70 seat jet, that's it. Don't expect the majors to be hiring.

Freight Dog, I fully understand the current trends and governing dynamics in play here (to borrow from a Beautiful Mind. I am well aware of the trend away from Majors flying unprofitable empty planes towards more nimble Regionals. However, the next level from Regional FO is regional Capt. and that is still attainable in a realistic time frame. And it's also not a terrible life, to make ~$75K doing what you love. The bottom line is still that if/when the economy picks back up and people start flying again, someone is going to have to fly them. While that doesn't assure good salaries, it does mean hiring. As for salaries, they will only go up when the supply/demand equation returns to being favorable for the pilots. The situation is lopsided and still trending away from us, but that is just the current situation, and as I mentioned earlier, supply/demand economics is a constantly cyclical beast. The downturns will weed out the weak.


As for making a stand, I'm all in favor of it. I assume that those of us who post here will all join hands when the time is right and go Braveheart on Mgt all at once. Now is obviously not the time, but someday in the not too distant future, when the dynamics have recovered, there will be an opportunity to make that stand.


I hope

 

[KickSave]

Let's see now. My husband was furloughed from the majors
while in initial training. Before that worked for a commuter,
before that a charter, before that flight instructing. He has never made a decent wage since he was 17 years old.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME THAT YOU THINK THAT DOESN'T BOTHER HIM? DO YOU LIVE UNDER A ROCK? Where do you put in 16 years and don't get above 19K? Guess what? I am whining and I don't care.

Umm, not to be argumentative here, but your husband is either very very unlucky or has been doing something wrong. Based on this post alone, he's the same age as my cousin. He also started flying at 17, was a CFI, then flew for a Regional, then got hired by United at about age 27 (10 years of flying experience into his career) about 6 years ago. He was making quite a nice salary as an A320 FO, and he could afford a home in the SF bay area by himself. He was basically furloughed recently, but picked up with Gulf Air making MORE money and some serious benefits as well. Of course it helps that he's single and can relocate overseas, but my main point is that if after 16 years in the industry one has never made a decent wage, maybe one hasn't been on the right track. Again I don't mean to sound un sympathetic, but there are plenty of others who have made it in this industry, in the same 16 year time frame. I personally will be lucky to get 1/4 of that fame and fortune myself.

 

[wifeofpilot]

kicksave

Obviously you didn't read closely... My husband "made" it to the majors... He was 31 years old, then. Been furloughed since 10 days after 911. Do the math. He did do something right... but some idiots decided to fly some planes into buildings.
Missing my point again. WE'RE NOW IN POST 9-11!

Congrats to your cousin. Moving overseas is not an option for us with a new baby and a very close knit family. It's too important for us.

SQUIRREL DOG- I do make good money, obviously you didn't read earlier posts. Your comments are "Squirrely".
We live "well" below our means...
And you are correct about park service jobs, people love them,
they are hard to get, BUT they actually do pay well.

 

[Whirlwind]

Re: kicksave

Obviously you didn't read closely... My husband "made" it to the majors... He was 31 years old, then. Been furloughed since 10 days after 911. Do the math. He did do something right... but some idiots decided to fly some planes into buildings.
Missing my point again. WE'RE NOW IN POST 9-11!

You're missing the big picture...

There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the going rate for those pilots goes down.

We don't live in a socialist socity, wages are set by market forces.

Yes, it does seem like low pay to make $19K as a F.O., but that is what the pay is. Take the job or leave it, there are a hundred guys behind your husband who will take it.

For what it is worth, wages for helo drivers have been rising in the past 5 years because of a shortage of helo pilots. All the Vietnam era pilots are retiring and are not being replaced at the same rate.

Again, market forces at work...

Jason

 

[enigma]

The downturns will weed out the weak.

KickSave, I'm going to ask you to reconsider this statement. Maybe you need more experience and more friends who have been around for decades to realize it, but downturns don't weed out the weak, they weaken the unlucky. Period. I know way too many pilots whose only mistake was being unlucky. They survived but in a much weakened position. One of my mentors is a EAL Captain who never recovered fully from EAL's demise. a downturn may weed out a few wannabes, but not enough to be a significant factor in the pilot supply.

regards,
enigma

 

[Checks]

KickSave,

Everything you have posted is typical from someone BRAND NEW to the industry. Being a Major Airline Pilot at age 31 is very successful. I love how a CFI student states that a A320 pilot hasnt been a success. Wait until you cant even get a CFI gig or are stuck at that CFI gig for YEARS making less than poverty level before you spout off. How many checkrides and medicals have you passed? Less than five? You are a real comedian.

DISCLAIMER:
Helicopter pay has gone up but it still sucks because you get literally zero benefits from that job with much higher training costs. So any potential wanna be helo drivers should stay fixed wing.

 

[bobbysamd]

Define "success"

[M]y cousin . . . started flying at 17, was a CFI, then flew for a Regional, then got hired by United at about age 27 (10 years of flying experience into his career) about 6 years ago. He was making quite a nice salary as an A320 FO . . . . [M]y main point is that if after 16 years in the industry one has never made a decent wage, maybe one hasn't been on the right track . . . . in the same 16 year time frame. I personally will be lucky to get 1/4 of that fame and fortune myself.

Being hired by a major at age 27, no matter how long one has been flying, is a success story in and of itself. I would almost classify your cousin as a prodigy. There are tons of extremely qualified people who try for years to get on with the majors who never do. Or, if they do, it's much later than age 27. Making the majors at 31 is also a success story. Never mind the equipment to which one is assigned.

I do not believe that one can blame 911 solely for the poor state of the industry. The economy was already in the toilet - it started going that way in 2000. I remember how the stock market was already starting to auger-in three years ago to this day. 911 simply hastened it along. Not to mention that with perhaps only one exception, during a very brief period in the '60s, there never has been a pilot shortage. Airlines have had little, if any, trouble filling their cockpits.

Finally, I do not recall WifeofPilot addressing airline pilot responsibility. Airline pilots have grave responsibilities, to their passengers, to their companies, to other aircraft, and to third parties. They should be paid commensurate with their responsibility. She should attack the pay issue from that angle.

 

[FlyinBrian]

Let me make a couple of statements that assume that you beleive in the principles of a capitalist economy:

Everyone who has a job gets paid exactly what they are worth.

With or without a union, every working person negotiates their salary.

Employers and employees each have "chips" that they can use at the negotiating table: employers have salary, benefits, work rules, and what not. Employees have skills and specialized training.

Salaries are determined just like the price of any good or service in a free market. If you have skills or training that are in demand AND not a lot of other people have those same skills or training, your value will be relatively high. If not many people need your skills, or LOTS of other people have your skills, your value will be low.

Now the kicker: notice that NOWHERE is the number of years or amount of money spent on training, amount of responsibility, or difficulty of the job directly a factor in determining a salary. These things will only affect your value if they place you in a small supply of labor for which there is a large demand. This is not the case with pilots. There are TONS of qualified pilots who are willing and able to accept jobs.

The unions bargain collectively for the membership so that they can artificially tinker with the otherwise free market. A union allows you to place yourself into a smaller labor supply by joining the union. They do this by not allowing anyone to work for the airline at a wage less than what they feel they are worth. THis prevents management from tapping cheaper labor, and removes competition from the salary equation.

For an in depth view on how this affects businesses and the economy at large, I recommend Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. It is fiction, and it often takes things to logical extrememes, but I think it very clearly demonstrates why free markets should run their course. In the long run, everyone benefits.

 

[Whirlwind]

DISCLAIMER:
Helicopter pay has gone up but it still sucks because you get literally zero benefits from that job with much higher training costs. So any potential wanna be helo drivers should stay fixed wing.

Read the new contracts recently signed down in the GOM before you say that.

The starting pay has gotten downright respectable (~$45K to start), plus they now have real benefits including medical, dental, and 401K.

Training costs are indeed higher, but then so is the pay, and you can get it quicker now. (but that might change by the time you get that far)

DISCLAIMER:
I'm a helicopter pilot first, stuck-wing driver second, so I'm biased here. YMMV

Jason

 

[surfnole]

Someone's job skills are worth whatever the market will pay for their skills. The market has 2 sides; one is supply and one is demand. You complain that your husband has to accept a job for $19,000 per year.... but HE ACCEPTED THE JOB.

and from another post

Salaries are determined just like the price of any good or service in a free market

The airline industry is not a free market. Pilots are captive to their employer. I can't think of another industry where you start all over at the beginning if you lose your job.

I have read here that Eagle has a 10 year contract which s*cks. Do you think Eagle could maintain that contract if their pilots could leave at any time and receive a better salary at another airline based on their years of experience?

In a free market a captain of an RJ or 747 could expect to leave his current position and receive similar or better pay at another airline.

Would a CFO of Walmart expect to leave for Target and start over in the mail room? Would a manager for McDonalds start serving fries if he moved over to Burger King?

With a true free market, bottom feeding companies would need to raise their wages if they wanted to limit their turnover. A national union could probably accomplish the same objective.

The seniority system has its upside (300K United captain), but you all are experiencing its downside.