I can't understand the low pay

[Checks]

KickSave,

Everything you have posted is typical from someone BRAND NEW to the industry. Being a Major Airline Pilot at age 31 is very successful. I love how a CFI student states that a A320 pilot hasnt been a success. Wait until you cant even get a CFI gig or are stuck at that CFI gig for YEARS making less than poverty level before you spout off. How many checkrides and medicals have you passed? Less than five? You are a real comedian.

DISCLAIMER:
Helicopter pay has gone up but it still sucks because you get literally zero benefits from that job with much higher training costs. So any potential wanna be helo drivers should stay fixed wing.

 

[bobbysamd]

Define "success"

[M]y cousin . . . started flying at 17, was a CFI, then flew for a Regional, then got hired by United at about age 27 (10 years of flying experience into his career) about 6 years ago. He was making quite a nice salary as an A320 FO . . . . [M]y main point is that if after 16 years in the industry one has never made a decent wage, maybe one hasn't been on the right track . . . . in the same 16 year time frame. I personally will be lucky to get 1/4 of that fame and fortune myself.

Being hired by a major at age 27, no matter how long one has been flying, is a success story in and of itself. I would almost classify your cousin as a prodigy. There are tons of extremely qualified people who try for years to get on with the majors who never do. Or, if they do, it's much later than age 27. Making the majors at 31 is also a success story. Never mind the equipment to which one is assigned.

I do not believe that one can blame 911 solely for the poor state of the industry. The economy was already in the toilet - it started going that way in 2000. I remember how the stock market was already starting to auger-in three years ago to this day. 911 simply hastened it along. Not to mention that with perhaps only one exception, during a very brief period in the '60s, there never has been a pilot shortage. Airlines have had little, if any, trouble filling their cockpits.

Finally, I do not recall WifeofPilot addressing airline pilot responsibility. Airline pilots have grave responsibilities, to their passengers, to their companies, to other aircraft, and to third parties. They should be paid commensurate with their responsibility. She should attack the pay issue from that angle.

 

[FlyinBrian]

Let me make a couple of statements that assume that you beleive in the principles of a capitalist economy:

Everyone who has a job gets paid exactly what they are worth.

With or without a union, every working person negotiates their salary.

Employers and employees each have "chips" that they can use at the negotiating table: employers have salary, benefits, work rules, and what not. Employees have skills and specialized training.

Salaries are determined just like the price of any good or service in a free market. If you have skills or training that are in demand AND not a lot of other people have those same skills or training, your value will be relatively high. If not many people need your skills, or LOTS of other people have your skills, your value will be low.

Now the kicker: notice that NOWHERE is the number of years or amount of money spent on training, amount of responsibility, or difficulty of the job directly a factor in determining a salary. These things will only affect your value if they place you in a small supply of labor for which there is a large demand. This is not the case with pilots. There are TONS of qualified pilots who are willing and able to accept jobs.

The unions bargain collectively for the membership so that they can artificially tinker with the otherwise free market. A union allows you to place yourself into a smaller labor supply by joining the union. They do this by not allowing anyone to work for the airline at a wage less than what they feel they are worth. THis prevents management from tapping cheaper labor, and removes competition from the salary equation.

For an in depth view on how this affects businesses and the economy at large, I recommend Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. It is fiction, and it often takes things to logical extrememes, but I think it very clearly demonstrates why free markets should run their course. In the long run, everyone benefits.

 

[Whirlwind]

DISCLAIMER:
Helicopter pay has gone up but it still sucks because you get literally zero benefits from that job with much higher training costs. So any potential wanna be helo drivers should stay fixed wing.

Read the new contracts recently signed down in the GOM before you say that.

The starting pay has gotten downright respectable (~$45K to start), plus they now have real benefits including medical, dental, and 401K.

Training costs are indeed higher, but then so is the pay, and you can get it quicker now. (but that might change by the time you get that far)

DISCLAIMER:
I'm a helicopter pilot first, stuck-wing driver second, so I'm biased here. YMMV

Jason

 

[surfnole]

Someone's job skills are worth whatever the market will pay for their skills. The market has 2 sides; one is supply and one is demand. You complain that your husband has to accept a job for $19,000 per year.... but HE ACCEPTED THE JOB.

and from another post

Salaries are determined just like the price of any good or service in a free market

The airline industry is not a free market. Pilots are captive to their employer. I can't think of another industry where you start all over at the beginning if you lose your job.

I have read here that Eagle has a 10 year contract which s*cks. Do you think Eagle could maintain that contract if their pilots could leave at any time and receive a better salary at another airline based on their years of experience?

In a free market a captain of an RJ or 747 could expect to leave his current position and receive similar or better pay at another airline.

Would a CFO of Walmart expect to leave for Target and start over in the mail room? Would a manager for McDonalds start serving fries if he moved over to Burger King?

With a true free market, bottom feeding companies would need to raise their wages if they wanted to limit their turnover. A national union could probably accomplish the same objective.

The seniority system has its upside (300K United captain), but you all are experiencing its downside.

 

[Cardinal]

For an in depth view on how this affects businesses and the economy at large, I recommend Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. It is fiction, and it often takes things to logical extrememes, but I think it very clearly demonstrates why free markets should run their course. In the long run, everyone benefits.

Excellent post! The differences between natural and external factors are often missed. I've suggested the same wonderful book on this board for the same reasons. But be careful. The nay-sayers will assume that you gained "all your economic knowledge from a 50 year old work of fiction."

 

[metrodriver]

What really is surprising is that almost everyone here who thinks the regional wages are not that bad all have less than 1500 hrs. In other words people who haven't been teaching for 4 years at $10.000 a year, went to some company that failed a year later, flew as a fo for some commuter for 2 years and this company closed the doors, flew freight in a beat up old single or light twin starting at $1000 a month in the SFbay area, hoping for something better, another regional (another $15000 a year job) get a job flying a nice trijet for a few month for 40-50.000 a year till 9-11 hit and then the pink slips are mailed out. Even most majors start out at 22-24000 /year, so the company I flew for was not bad at starting salary, however a 10 year captain could make almost $100.000 if he did some overtime. Of course don't forget the time you spend looking for a new job after the last one disappears. Before you know it you are 10 to 15 years further after receiving your commercial license before getting on with a major, and you haven't broken $20.000/year yet. So if someone does it a lot faster, that's awesome.
I think also that responsibility should be rewarded. As a regional pilot you are being send halfway across the country in a 20 million dollar metal tube filled with people that put their trust in you. To do that you can't get sick (cough medicine triggers the drug test), can't drink a day ahead of flying, got to see a doctor once or twice a year who can tell you right then that you won't fly anymore because of some little irregularity and of course there is the yearly check ride in the sim or real plane. If you happen to draw mr a-hole who hates your guts anyway for your ride, well you might be looking for another job again. All this for 19000 and maybe up to 24000 5 years down the road. I guess there is a reason for the extremely high divorce rate among pilots. Simply because the wives find someone who is home more and brings a lot bigger paycheck to the bank, that allows them to buy an airline ticket to go somewhere nice. It's frustrating if you can't even buy an airline ticket and you're a pilot!

 

[KickSave]

KickSave,

Everything you have posted is typical from someone BRAND NEW to the industry. Being a Major Airline Pilot at age 31 is very successful. I love how a CFI student states that a A320 pilot hasnt been a success. Wait until you cant even get a CFI gig or are stuck at that CFI gig for YEARS making less than poverty level before you spout off. How many checkrides and medicals have you passed? Less than five? You are a real comedian.

DISCLAIMER:
Helicopter pay has gone up but it still sucks because you get literally zero benefits from that job with much higher training costs. So any potential wanna be helo drivers should stay fixed wing.

Whoa, time out here! I didn't mean to piss off all you salty 10,000 hour pilots by presuming so much. But Checks, if you re-read my posts, you'll see I am prepared to pay those dues you mention, I am not brainwashed to think that there is going to be some huge pilot shortage soon, but I will stand by my opinions that the airline industry is effected by some basic economic factors that won't remain the same for ever. I expect there to be -some- improvement from the -current- situation, so let me just leave it at that.


But I would correct you in that I didn't say a Major pilot at age 31 wasn't successful, I said he/she WAS succesful. I think the confusion was over Wife's statement that he never earned a good wage in his career after 16 years. If he got furloughed before he was able to collect even a year as a Major FO, then that truly sucks and I am sorry for him/her and didn't mean to imply otherwise. My point was poorly made, that for some people who have experienced this crummy timing, there are others who's timing has been perfect. I wil ltry to refrain from any further talk about the state of the industry until I am on the same level as the rest of you veterans, but my own personal experiences (via my relatives) have lead me to believe that a good career is still possible, so long as your expectations are realistic (I think mine are, for my self anyway). I could be too naieve to know any better, but I do hope all the doom and gloom sayers find some salvation soon though

Enigma, the downturns will weed out the unlucky, I'll agree there. But I also think, the weak have no chance to succeed either, eh?

 

[enigma]

With a true free market, bottom feeding companies would need to raise their wages if they wanted to limit their turnover. A national union could probably accomplish the same objective.

Surfnole, In a truly free market with an over supply of pilots, the bottom feeding companies will continue to pay according to what a pilot is willing to accept. And as long as those pilots perceive a pot of gold at rainbows end, they will continue to take bottom feeding low/no paying jobs.

Not specifically aimed at surfnole.

Have you considered that the UNION is the reason you have to start over every time you switch jobs? Management could really care less about your seniority, but ALPA worships at seniority's throne. The seniority system is what keeps the boss from promoting the boot licker instead of you.

I don't know the answer, and even though I have sometimes wished for a national union, I don't think that one is the answer. A national union could only work if it controlled every employer and potential employer of pilots. Or if it could control the supply of pilots. If the association controlled licensing not the government, then we would have some power. But as long as the military trains pilots, the union can't control the supply; and I seriously doubt that the government is just going to turn over licensing to our association.

So we either do away with the union and let everyman fend for himself, or we keep what we've got and maintain a system that rewards the lucky. For example, I know a pilot who really wanted to work for UAL, but got hired by SWA instead. Pure luck. At the time he was bummed out, now he's on top of the world.

The present system is a long way from perfect, but I don't see any way to change it. All we can do is attempt to counter some of the manure spread by the AirIncs of the world, but even if we scare off all of the civilian wannabees, the military will still train enough pilots to ensure a continuous supply. Where does that leave us? Mostly poor, with scattered rich. My appologies to the w/x guess'rs

regards,
enigma

 

[enigma]

Enigma, the downturns will weed out the unlucky, I'll agree there. But I also think, the weak have no chance to succeed either, eh?

You're linking weak to character I think. I don't think that is the determining factor. Plenty of pilots with weak character can continue as long as they are financially strong. Not to disparage any certain group, but those with: rich daddys, military retirement, career changers with a savings account, etc., can all survive regardless of their character.

As I think about the subject more, downturns really eliminate the pilot who has exhausted his bankroll getting to a decent job, then gets furloughed during the downturn. Think about pilotswifes pilot, he spend years working for very little in order to get where he got, then he got furloughed. If it weren't for a working wife, he would be out of the business, and that has nothing to do with weakness.

regards,
8N