I can't understand the low pay

[avbug]

I quit, saturday. The low pay I could live with. I didn't mind the heat, the smoke, the angry, impatient passengers. I didn't mind the long hours, the lack of respect, the dorky waiter-like uniforms, or the pressure. But all I ever asked was to be served a cake donut, and the bastards wouldn't do it.

Well they can kiss my gritty, unwashed backside. I'm going to go fly fires, and they can take a flying leap into the volcano of life.

Did that sound good? I mean, was it too much. Cause, I can, like tone it down a little if it didn't. I mean, I don't want to make nobody upset or nothing. You know, like, really. I just want to get along, but do you think it sounded good? I think it sounded good. I'm going to spring it on them tomorrow. Unless it didn't sound good. Too strong? I don't know. I thought it sounded good.

I really did quit on Saturday.

Now, how many of you heros who keep talking about how if pilots would quit and stand up to management, we wouldn't see the low wages, are willing to follow suit??

Hmmm. Didn't think so. All talk, and no play.

 

[metrodriver]

Avbug, there probably is a line forming of people where you worked who will do it for less than you were, they will even bring donuts everyday for everyone after they get hired

 

[avbug]

The rat bastards. I don't care if they take my job, but if they get the donuts, I'll come back and beat the living snot out of every single one of them with a printer cable and a box of stale krispy kremes.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I really did quit on Saturday.

Now, how many of you heros who keep talking about how if pilots would quit and stand up to management, we wouldn't see the low wages, are willing to follow suit??

Hmmm. Didn't think so. All talk, and no play.

Avbug,

I walked the walk. I haven't flown a revenue flight for Delta in over a year! Since they told me they weren't going to pay me, I told them I wouldn't come in any more. Sure it was tough, but sometimes you have to make a stand!

1310 of us really showed them. They'll think twice before they mess with us again!

 

[KickSave]

Re: mean spirited post?

Nobody in real life goes from 19K a year to 90K a year in 5 or six years. If they do, they don't deserve it and should be replaced by freedom air or great sky airlines.

I went from $19K to $90K in real life in six years in in the computer biz from 92 to 98. But at age 34, I had the stroke of genius to change careers from one industry(tech) that has laid off 1/4 of it's employees to the other industry (flying) that has laid off 1/4 of it's employees. What was I thinking?

Oh I remember now, I just wanted to fly planes for a living. I even recall saying I would do it for $19K a year if it meant getting to the next level. Guess that makes me part of the problem. I apologize for that

 

[enigma]

Re: Re: mean spirited post?

Oh I remember now, I just wanted to fly planes for a living. I even recall saying I would do it for $19K a year if it meant getting to the next level. Guess that makes me part of the problem. I apologize for that

KickSave, What information did you have about flying as a career? What were your expectations, and why did you have them? Did you believe that there was a pot of gold at rainbows end? If so, why did you believe that to be true? Did you understand the nature of the business?, its ups and downs?,

No trick questions, I'm just trying to find out if you were fooled by the pilot shortage pimps, or if you were fully informed and still were willing to enter into indentured servitude. BTW, I was also willing to work for little in order to have a shot at the top. I had no idea what the industry was really like. My generation had FAPA to blame. I never gave them any money, but my fellow CFI's did. We were all very misinformed about the career.

regards,
enigma

 

[KickSave]

Enigma, the reality is, I knew exactly what I was getting into, that I would have to spend quite a while paying my dues and eating top ramen twice a day. I did make the decision and get my loan and start down this path shortly before 9/11, so things have changed somewhat since I first did my research and made the call. I am a little frustrated that my timing isn't as good as it could be. But the CFI who did my private, who is now ready to be hired but has no good opportunies at this time, gave me some good advice - these tough times will just weed out the weak. There WILL be jobs in this biz again sometime. The 55+ crew will be retiring, the economy will hopefully pick up, gas prices are on the way back down. Black Monday in Oct 1987 caused a lot of people to jump off the ledge, but those who stuck it out were back to where they started a year or two later. Commercial aviation has a future, I want to be a part of that, and I don't expect to make $90K in the next six years either. I'll settle for being able to eat three squares a day.


However, there is a reason why a new, 1500 hour pilot would work for $19K as a regional FO, it's to GET to the next level. A 5000 hour former major FO who takes that same job while he/she is on furlough must approach it from a different perspective. You don't need to build hours for $19K. If you have a wife and kids, you have to feed them somehow. If she can support you, then that's different. But without knowing Wifeofpilot's specifics and details, all I can say is, it's a simple matter of supply and demand. Supply and demand equations rarely stay stagnant for long periods of time. Right now, supply far exceeds demand. Two and a half years ago, the situation was the opposite. I imagine its possible the situation can reverse itself all over again in two and a half years from now as well.

I might still be misinformed today, but this is what I want to do, I didn't enter this industry for the money. I was making much better money as a computer nerd. This is what I want to do, so I'll accept whatever fate (and salary) has in store for me, knowing that nothing worth having ever came easy.

 

[Cadillac]

Pilot Compensation

This is one of the most important/useful threads I have seen in awhile.
The low pay is hard to believe, unless you believe as most pilots and pilots in training do that it is an "entry position" with a quick upgrade to captain, and then a jump to the majors where the real money rolls in. This myth is perpetuated by the "airlilne pilot shortage scammers" as Enigma put it.

I got into this industry believing this pro da, and I'm slowly finding out that it is not the case. Which leaves me and other up-and-coming airline pilots with the choices of 1) leaving the industry and all that we've invested so far. 2) staying and doing what we can to raise wages. or 3) staying and working for these pitiful wages (or even undercutting them). I intend to go with number 2. Now we need to find a way to do it.

One way is to not go to work for some of the lowest airlines with salarys that are allowing them to undercut higher paying regionals and take their flying. A variant of this is to not pay-for-training or paying for the job as some pilots at some airlines are resorting to. This is the extent I can do to help so far, (other than bullying and intimidating any career-minded students I see out of flying to reduce the number of total pilots )

If I ever get to a regional, then it will be time to find other methods to increase pay. Voting against TA's that ask for concessions, and participating in strikes sound like the way to do it, I only hope I have the courage when the time comes. It sounds easy now, but we'll see when I get there and there are thousands of starry-eyed interns and academy grads waiting to replace me for 12K a year.

As far as the effectiveness of strikes, I have to question that as well. I've seen the spreading out of the mainline flying to multiple regionals that would prevent a single striking airline from having the industry-wide effect it would need to promote a change. I've also yet to see two or more regional airlines contracts come up for renegotiation at the same time. The probability of another successful Comair-type strike resulting in higher wages/conditions may not happen.

That leaves us with finding some other method, perhaps a national, unified regional pilot association that can collectively address the situation to the airlines (who will probably laugh us out of the boardroom) or maybe more successfully, congress. Maybe I'm dreaming. But if its illegal for us to strike while under a legal contract, and a strike during contract negotiations results in no effect, what other options are there?

Concluding this amazingly long rant, I do have hope that this message board will allow unity and discussion from members of ALL regionals, which might result in a workable solution.

 

[Freight Dog]

However, there is a reason why a new, 1500 hour pilot would work for $19K as a regional FO, it's to GET to the next level.

I might still be misinformed today, but this is what I want to do, I didn't enter this industry for the money. I was making much better money as a computer nerd. This is what I want to do, so I'll accept whatever fate (and salary) has in store for me, knowing that nothing worth having ever came easy.

KickSave, you may not be aware, but the supply of major airline jobs has dwindled quite a bit and will most likely stay that way. There IS no NEXT LEVEL. Once you get to the regionals and fly a 70 seat jet, that's it. Don't expect the majors to be hiring. If you look at the boom, it's all in RJ's. Why? Pay/work rules/retirement disparity. Some people will talk it down, but the reality is that the majors flew DC-9's, F-28's and so on for a major-like wage. We now have regional pilots flying 50-90 seat jets literally SETTLING for poverty-wages/slave work rules/no retirement. Look at Mesa for example. For what? Next level? What next level? This is just market forces at work. Major airlines are becoming widebody-only operations flying across both ponds, while regionals are replacing mainline narrowbodies at a pretty alarming rate. What next level are you talking about? SWA, or JetBlue simply don't have enough positions for all those RJ guys who are working for slave wages in order to "get to the next level."

However, you are in a unique position along with thousands of other regional pilots. The sooner you realize that there IS no next level, the sooner you make the stand to improve wages and be 100% willing to walk away from your job if they don't, the sooner you will make regionals a career place and create that "next level" on your level.

 

[wifeofpilot]

Exactly my point. When those poverty wages were agreed to many probably thought, hey, I can live with that for a year or less. Upgrade was fast, majors hiring like crazy. Well that is not the case anymore and I too believe regionals will be a long term career choice.

Think about our situation, let's say my husband is on the RJ for the next 8-10 years before major recalls him. It will be a really hard decision to leave a captain slot with seniority for being last place at the major.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Exactly my point. When those poverty wages were agreed to many probably thought, hey, I can live with that for a year or less. Upgrade was fast, majors hiring like crazy. Well that is not the case anymore and I too believe regionals will be a long term career choice.

Think about our situation, let's say my husband is on the RJ for the next 8-10 years before major recalls him. It will be a really hard decision to leave a captain slot with seniority for being last place at the major.

Someone's job skills are worth whatever the market will pay for their skills. The market has 2 sides; one is supply and one is demand. You complain that your husband has to accept a job for $19,000 per year.... but HE ACCEPTED THE JOB.

One of the first people to post on this thread asked if it bothered your husband as much as it bothers you.... I think he was asking whether you were interested in the money more than your husband is interested in flying because he loves to fly.

If its about money, tell your husband to go work for a bank. If its not about the money then quit your whining. Because that's exactly what you are doing - whining.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Someone's job skills are worth whatever the market will pay for their skills. The market has 2 sides; one is supply and one is demand. You complain that your husband has to accept a job for $19,000 per year.... but HE ACCEPTED THE JOB

TXCAP, that may be true but the reality is some companies are taking advantage (pimping is the term I like to use) of a person's desire to fly. Most companies desire a four year degree and require the minimum hours needed to qualify. Yet, they offer low wages for those skills and experience. Right or wrong, there are a lot of people willing to work for those wages and compensation. Some do it because of their love of flying, some because they may not have other skills other than flying. Maybe the thought of working a job on the ground terrifies them (for that I completely understand).

Is it OK for Wong Fu over in China to make poop wages to make Nike tennis shoes that he can't even afford? He agreed to do it or was encouraged to do so by his guberment!

I think wifeofpilot is doing a service to people who are thinking about getting into the business. It can be a gut wrenching decision, are you going to do whatever it takes to fly or are you going to hold yourself to a higher standard given the time, money, and effort a person has to put into it? BTW, I am no way advocating sticking it to an employer.

Again, companies are taking advantage of the desire to fly with the major job being the carrot on the end of the stick. That is changing and even though I have no horse in this race, I'm glad to see some people realizing this. We all stand to eventually lose (including management) if we continue to lower our standards and expectations.

Keep your head and your guard up.

 

[wifeofpilot]

Let's see now. My husband was furloughed from the majors
while in initial training. Before that worked for a commuter,
before that a charter, before that flight instructing. He has never made a decent wage since he was 17 years old.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME THAT YOU THINK THAT DOESN'T BOTHER HIM? DO YOU LIVE UNDER A ROCK? Where do you put in 16 years and don't get above 19K? Guess what? I am whining and I don't care.

 

[Whirlwind]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME THAT YOU THINK THAT DOESN'T BOTHER HIM? DO YOU LIVE UNDER A ROCK? Where do you put in 16 years and don't get above 19K?

Pilots, for one...

Jason

 

[SquirrelDog]

Wife

Try park services, they do make crap but people do it becuse they love it. I'd say the pay there is around regional level. Thats just one example...I know there are many more.

Things are the way thery are so either live with it or try to do something about. Maybe you should get a better job and let you husband start up his own aviation buisness. Then you have money and he gets to do what he loves.

If he's never made a descent wage since 17, then how does he know what a descent wage is! Pay can only go up from CFIing so its usually better pay; "live within ones means".

You can always make it work, its just harder at some times

Squirreldog

 

[KickSave]

KickSave, you may not be aware, but the supply of major airline jobs has dwindled quite a bit and will most likely stay that way. There IS no NEXT LEVEL. Once you get to the regionals and fly a 70 seat jet, that's it. Don't expect the majors to be hiring.

Freight Dog, I fully understand the current trends and governing dynamics in play here (to borrow from a Beautiful Mind. I am well aware of the trend away from Majors flying unprofitable empty planes towards more nimble Regionals. However, the next level from Regional FO is regional Capt. and that is still attainable in a realistic time frame. And it's also not a terrible life, to make ~$75K doing what you love. The bottom line is still that if/when the economy picks back up and people start flying again, someone is going to have to fly them. While that doesn't assure good salaries, it does mean hiring. As for salaries, they will only go up when the supply/demand equation returns to being favorable for the pilots. The situation is lopsided and still trending away from us, but that is just the current situation, and as I mentioned earlier, supply/demand economics is a constantly cyclical beast. The downturns will weed out the weak.


As for making a stand, I'm all in favor of it. I assume that those of us who post here will all join hands when the time is right and go Braveheart on Mgt all at once. Now is obviously not the time, but someday in the not too distant future, when the dynamics have recovered, there will be an opportunity to make that stand.


I hope

 

[KickSave]

Let's see now. My husband was furloughed from the majors
while in initial training. Before that worked for a commuter,
before that a charter, before that flight instructing. He has never made a decent wage since he was 17 years old.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME THAT YOU THINK THAT DOESN'T BOTHER HIM? DO YOU LIVE UNDER A ROCK? Where do you put in 16 years and don't get above 19K? Guess what? I am whining and I don't care.

Umm, not to be argumentative here, but your husband is either very very unlucky or has been doing something wrong. Based on this post alone, he's the same age as my cousin. He also started flying at 17, was a CFI, then flew for a Regional, then got hired by United at about age 27 (10 years of flying experience into his career) about 6 years ago. He was making quite a nice salary as an A320 FO, and he could afford a home in the SF bay area by himself. He was basically furloughed recently, but picked up with Gulf Air making MORE money and some serious benefits as well. Of course it helps that he's single and can relocate overseas, but my main point is that if after 16 years in the industry one has never made a decent wage, maybe one hasn't been on the right track. Again I don't mean to sound un sympathetic, but there are plenty of others who have made it in this industry, in the same 16 year time frame. I personally will be lucky to get 1/4 of that fame and fortune myself.

 

[wifeofpilot]

kicksave

Obviously you didn't read closely... My husband "made" it to the majors... He was 31 years old, then. Been furloughed since 10 days after 911. Do the math. He did do something right... but some idiots decided to fly some planes into buildings.
Missing my point again. WE'RE NOW IN POST 9-11!

Congrats to your cousin. Moving overseas is not an option for us with a new baby and a very close knit family. It's too important for us.

SQUIRREL DOG- I do make good money, obviously you didn't read earlier posts. Your comments are "Squirrely".
We live "well" below our means...
And you are correct about park service jobs, people love them,
they are hard to get, BUT they actually do pay well.

 

[Whirlwind]

Re: kicksave

Obviously you didn't read closely... My husband "made" it to the majors... He was 31 years old, then. Been furloughed since 10 days after 911. Do the math. He did do something right... but some idiots decided to fly some planes into buildings.
Missing my point again. WE'RE NOW IN POST 9-11!

You're missing the big picture...

There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the going rate for those pilots goes down.

We don't live in a socialist socity, wages are set by market forces.

Yes, it does seem like low pay to make $19K as a F.O., but that is what the pay is. Take the job or leave it, there are a hundred guys behind your husband who will take it.

For what it is worth, wages for helo drivers have been rising in the past 5 years because of a shortage of helo pilots. All the Vietnam era pilots are retiring and are not being replaced at the same rate.

Again, market forces at work...

Jason

 

[enigma]

The downturns will weed out the weak.

KickSave, I'm going to ask you to reconsider this statement. Maybe you need more experience and more friends who have been around for decades to realize it, but downturns don't weed out the weak, they weaken the unlucky. Period. I know way too many pilots whose only mistake was being unlucky. They survived but in a much weakened position. One of my mentors is a EAL Captain who never recovered fully from EAL's demise. a downturn may weed out a few wannabes, but not enough to be a significant factor in the pilot supply.

regards,
enigma