I can't understand the low pay

[wil]

Maybe we need a one day "Regional Airline Sickout" to bring focus to this issue?

 

[jarhead]

To some degree, the strike did contribute to better pay than before the strike, as well as some other contract improvements in other areas than pay alone.

In my view, a strike now would not be very effective. The 121 carriers (with a few exceptions) are in the toilet. Many are losing money hand over fist. When airlines are furloghing pilots in the thousands, the union is not going to be able to negotiate from a position of any power at all.

As posted previously in this thread, DAL has learned something from the 356 million dollar loss it took as a direct result of the Comair strike. DCI carriers are begining to be spread around with overlapping routes, so that if one regional carrier should strike, the other overlapping routes of other regional connection carriers simply would pick up the pax that were another carriers bread and butter before such strike. As I understand it, this would not be flying "struck work" if a route was already established by another carrier in the umbrella.

Times have changed, and the market will more and more dictate what contract terms can be reached. You see the concessions now being asked for by the majors, just to avoid bancruptcy. You can't get blood out of a turnip, and you can't get a big dollar contract, where the airline is trying just to stay in business.

Many regional pilots no longer aspire to get to a major, using the regional as just a 'stepping stone' to do so. I know many Comair pilots who walked that picket line in 2001 now see that carrier as a career. To give up the seniority to go to a major, just makes them furlough fodder, as being junior on the major's seniority list. It will be years before all the furloughed pilots at the majors are recalled, so unless it's Jet Blue or Southwest............

 

[bobbysamd]

AFTRA

For all of you who are interested, I am a member of AFTRA-SAG, part of the AFL-CIO. I am a writer and have been so fortunate to make over 50k since for the past 7 years . . . .

AFTRA is a strong union. I sure wish I could have had AFTRA representation during the fifteen years that I was employed full-time in radio. There are times that I and others could have used it.

There are a lot of similarities between radio and professional aviation. There is no shortage of people who want to be on the air compared to the available jobs. With few exceptions new radio talent has to start in 250-watt stations in some real G-d-forsaken places. Many work for years in small markets, putting up with unbelievably bad bosses and working conditions before they have enough experience and/or can catch a break. They do it, myself included, because they have ambitions and dreams, and love being behind the mike. Just like pilots who love the cockpit. And there are plenty of broadcasters who work cheap, just to stay in radio.

I think part of the problem is that pilot unions have lost much of their clout during the past twenty-five years. We can thank deregulation and Frank in part for that loss of clout. We've had plenty of discussions on that topic elsewhere on the board. And, once again, Flying the Line Volumes I and II by George Hopkins and Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger are strongly suggested reading.

 

[pilotyip]

to pilotwife

So you write for a living, you have a special skill and that is why you get paid as much as you do. When you write your contribution to your company is why they have you write and have hired you for that poisitioon. You are unique. Althought you may think a pilot's job is hard, anyone on this board can fly an airplane, but very few, myself included, can write or spell. An airline employer hires at the lowest rate allowed becasue a pilot is a commodity, like corn futures, a comm MEL Inst who can fly is all that is needed. Whe there is an excess of corn, prices go down, when there is a shortage of corn the price goes up.

 

[WrightAvia]

90,000 a year? I don't believe dat **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**

Comair in January of 1997, and was being paid around 18,000 a year as an FO, and sold paint at Sears part time on his days off, to supplement his income. He was not married when he started at Comair. He will be married this month, at the ripe old age of 32. His pay will go from $84,000 a year right now, up to $90,000 at the end of this month. To be accurate, Sim instructors are paid a premiun over a line pilot, so that is why $90,000 may seem a bit high for a CA with 6 years seniority.

and they complain that commuter pilots make toooo little money? Jeeeze. I don't buy it. There is no way in hell that a guy goes from 18K to 90K in 6 years.

 

[Skygod]

Mrs Wife,

The managment at my airline, when asked exactly your question, says "if you don't like it here then leave." The pilots take it as management doesn't care about them. Management takes it as they must like it as they didn't all leave.

At the other end of the pay scales, why do guys and gals making $500,000 a year keep working year after year rather than retire and spend time with the kids or surfing every day? It's not all about the money. It's about power, competation, control. Or the flying.

 

[jarhead]

I guess that's your problem. I don't really care if you believe it or not. Look up the contract for Comair, and read the section on compensation for Captain-Instructors. Then you can apologize for your hostile, and mean spirited post. I have no intention of providing you with my son's W-2 form.

Incidentally, my son has never said he is not paid enough. All the rants about 1st year FO pay is true. You pay your dues, work hard, upgrade, and get yourself recruited into the training department, and life can be good.

Take a pill, and get over it.

 

[WrightAvia]

mean spirited post?

Nobody in real life goes from 19K a year to 90K a year in 5 or six years. If they do, they don't deserve it and should be replaced by freedom air or great sky airlines.

 

[jarhead]

OK, It's all in my imagination. I have no intention of arguing the point. Do you know how to look up the Comair contract? If you can do that, do you think you can find and understand the section on compensation for Simulator instructors?

I will not do your homework for you, nor will I debate the point any more. You just are not that important to me.

 

[WrightAvia]

90,000 a year in 6 years...

Dude, I don't know guys at ATA or Midwest Airlines that get that and they fly real airplanes. Not only that, FEDEX DUDES Don't get that. How can I be sympathetic towards commuter dudes that get 90 grand a year.

If Comair pilots are getting that, then why isn't everybody else?

 

[jarhead]

Was someone asking you for your sympathy.........DUDE?

 

[WrightAvia]

hahaha. I guess not.

 

[skootertrash]

Just remember that asking for advice/sympathy on this board AND 1.50$ will get you a cup of coffee. Without the 1.50$ you will just get pi$$ed off and frustrated.

 

[FSB99]

simple answer to the original question of "why?"

give your hubby 6 months in his new job, and he'll understand why.

 

[SkyWstman]

Why the low pay? Partly because every passenger wants to fly for free. Every one wants the cheapest ticket they can find. I have to bite my tongue every time I hear a passenger ask when the planes are going to get bigger again. I want to say "when you are willing to pay for it."

 

[enigma]

My question is... HOW AND WHY did $19,000 ever get passed as an acceptable, liveable salary FOR A PILOT ? Where did this happen, what years and what was the environment that everyone didn't REVOLT and say THIS IS RIDICULOUS! EVEN TAKE IT TO THE MEDIA, YOUR CONGRESSMAN, A LABOR LAW ATTORNEY, THE FEDERAL LABOR DEPARTMENT? ANYBODY ????

Nineteen large (and lower) never got passed as a liveable salary. It did get passed as a wage that pilots are willing to work for. Pilots didn't revolt because doing so might have made them realisticly ineligable for continuing in the career, and the top rung of the ladder was/is considered a goal worthy of sacrifice in order to attain.

My next question is WHAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT? There has to be something someone can do to get you guys a more liveable wage? I'm not even talking big money, I mean $35,000.
I can tell you that no one, NO ONE, believes me when I tell them what a F.O. makes flying a regional jet with a big name logo on it.
I don't know ANYONE who makes that low of pay in a full time job!

I wish I knew. Maybe you should take your writing skills and submit articles to periodicals such as ProPilot, Flying, FlightTraining, etc that detail the truth about a flying career. Lord knows, someone needs to tell the truth about the career; most "wanna-be's" never find out how difficult it is until AFTER they spend $100 grand on flight training.

People come into the business with stars in their eyes, willing to do anything in order to fly. We will have to reduce the number of pilots before wages get better. Might as well try and "nip it in the bud" by shutting off some of the new pilots.

First of all, the skill and pay you guys put out for training and schooling. Now the security and terrorism threats looming over you. It's a complete insult.

Absolutely, but we willingly accept the slight.

With little hiring, many of you are facing F.O. positions for a long time to come. What can be done?

Reduce the number of available pilots willing to work for nothing.

I am a member of a union at my full-time job (Non airline) and I can tell you the one advantage is great wages.

How has your union managed to be the sole provider of your product? Until our union manages to become the sole provider of pilots, we're hosed. I'm certainly open to suggestions.

I urge you to become active in your cause! Speak out and demand better pay! THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH DEMANDING A LIVEABLE WAGE. I guarantee you NO ONE WOULD DISAGREE WITH YOU! YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED AT THE SUPPORT YOU GET!

A supportive wife!

If I read you right, this paragraph shows your real intent. I totally agree, but we must recognize that Labor Law is very specific about the things we can do to further our cause. A pilot group working under a legal contract can not just decide to demand more money. This must be done when the contract is open for renegotiation. Any attempt to change the terms before is specifically illegal. Therefore, we must work in a general sense; trying to change hearts and minds so that when the time comes people will not roll over and allow wages to stay low. Even more importantly, we must try and inform the potential pilots of the truth pertaining to the career. Truths like: there is no pilot shortage, zero to 747 Captain takes longer than 18 months, etc.

The pay won't get better until the number of jobs outnumbers the available pilots. Even if each organized group makes gains in their upcoming contract negotiations, we will still lose ground if there are enough pilots available to staff the next Freedom/AirTran/ValueJet, etc. That is why we need a true union, not an association.

regards,
enigma

 

[enigma]

Re: Real Problem

Nevertheless, one thing being lost in this situation is that the individual in this case is well over qualified for the position that they find themselves in. ...............

He is qualified but in what for all intent and purpose is an entry level position in regional airlines. It does not pay much but gives you the opportinity to build experience and move up.

B S Alert,
B S Alert.

This is management spin; an attempt to justify low wages. It is pure Bull Manure.

The right seat of a two pilot, passenger carrying aircraft is NOT entry level. It may be the bottom of the pay scale because of the lack of revenue capability of a 19/30/33/50 seat aircraft, but it is definitely not entry level.

Maybe you should attempt to tell a FAA inspector who is observing FO checkrides that he needs to ease up because the job is entry level. He'd laugh you out of the sim. The FO is an integral part of the modern cockpit and is expected to be every bit as good as the Captain. The only difference in the two seats is in who signs the release. The FO must fly to the same standards as the Captain.

I might agree if we were talking about the right seat of a single pilot Navajo who is only there because of company rules or a jump pilot or a banner tow-er, but the FAA has determined that RJ's (and ever other airliner that I am aware of) requires two pilots.

Once again, just because it's at the bottom of the airline pay scale because of economics, doesn't mean it's entry level.

enigma

 

[wil]

Hey Wright- My pay is based around 75 hour guarantee which works out to be mis 50's without flying over that. Our Instructors get 95 hours min plus for every hour of IOE they get another hour of pay. I am applying this summer to the training department and have only been with the Airline for 3 years. So Jarhead's son is probably in the low 6 figures. I don't know your background but learn the facts before you flame someone-

 

[jarhead]

Thank you, Wil.
Good luck with your pursuit of working in the training department. I am sure you will love it, and the pay IS quite nice

 

[surfnole]

I'm doing my part to make pilot wages higher by refusing to work for such cr*p salaries. ;^)

Several years back I considered the *career change*, but despite my heart telling me what to do, the cold numbers stared me in the face. My jobs OK. pays decent to good, and I'm home every weekend and night.

On the other hand, my company has hired several thousand employees in India and none in the states, and we haven't had a raise in three years. I don't know how much of a future there will be here either.

 

[avbug]

I quit, saturday. The low pay I could live with. I didn't mind the heat, the smoke, the angry, impatient passengers. I didn't mind the long hours, the lack of respect, the dorky waiter-like uniforms, or the pressure. But all I ever asked was to be served a cake donut, and the bastards wouldn't do it.

Well they can kiss my gritty, unwashed backside. I'm going to go fly fires, and they can take a flying leap into the volcano of life.

Did that sound good? I mean, was it too much. Cause, I can, like tone it down a little if it didn't. I mean, I don't want to make nobody upset or nothing. You know, like, really. I just want to get along, but do you think it sounded good? I think it sounded good. I'm going to spring it on them tomorrow. Unless it didn't sound good. Too strong? I don't know. I thought it sounded good.

I really did quit on Saturday.

Now, how many of you heros who keep talking about how if pilots would quit and stand up to management, we wouldn't see the low wages, are willing to follow suit??

Hmmm. Didn't think so. All talk, and no play.

 

[metrodriver]

Avbug, there probably is a line forming of people where you worked who will do it for less than you were, they will even bring donuts everyday for everyone after they get hired

 

[avbug]

The rat bastards. I don't care if they take my job, but if they get the donuts, I'll come back and beat the living snot out of every single one of them with a printer cable and a box of stale krispy kremes.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I really did quit on Saturday.

Now, how many of you heros who keep talking about how if pilots would quit and stand up to management, we wouldn't see the low wages, are willing to follow suit??

Hmmm. Didn't think so. All talk, and no play.

Avbug,

I walked the walk. I haven't flown a revenue flight for Delta in over a year! Since they told me they weren't going to pay me, I told them I wouldn't come in any more. Sure it was tough, but sometimes you have to make a stand!

1310 of us really showed them. They'll think twice before they mess with us again!

 

[KickSave]

Re: mean spirited post?

Nobody in real life goes from 19K a year to 90K a year in 5 or six years. If they do, they don't deserve it and should be replaced by freedom air or great sky airlines.

I went from $19K to $90K in real life in six years in in the computer biz from 92 to 98. But at age 34, I had the stroke of genius to change careers from one industry(tech) that has laid off 1/4 of it's employees to the other industry (flying) that has laid off 1/4 of it's employees. What was I thinking?

Oh I remember now, I just wanted to fly planes for a living. I even recall saying I would do it for $19K a year if it meant getting to the next level. Guess that makes me part of the problem. I apologize for that

 

[enigma]

Re: Re: mean spirited post?

Oh I remember now, I just wanted to fly planes for a living. I even recall saying I would do it for $19K a year if it meant getting to the next level. Guess that makes me part of the problem. I apologize for that

KickSave, What information did you have about flying as a career? What were your expectations, and why did you have them? Did you believe that there was a pot of gold at rainbows end? If so, why did you believe that to be true? Did you understand the nature of the business?, its ups and downs?,

No trick questions, I'm just trying to find out if you were fooled by the pilot shortage pimps, or if you were fully informed and still were willing to enter into indentured servitude. BTW, I was also willing to work for little in order to have a shot at the top. I had no idea what the industry was really like. My generation had FAPA to blame. I never gave them any money, but my fellow CFI's did. We were all very misinformed about the career.

regards,
enigma

 

[KickSave]

Enigma, the reality is, I knew exactly what I was getting into, that I would have to spend quite a while paying my dues and eating top ramen twice a day. I did make the decision and get my loan and start down this path shortly before 9/11, so things have changed somewhat since I first did my research and made the call. I am a little frustrated that my timing isn't as good as it could be. But the CFI who did my private, who is now ready to be hired but has no good opportunies at this time, gave me some good advice - these tough times will just weed out the weak. There WILL be jobs in this biz again sometime. The 55+ crew will be retiring, the economy will hopefully pick up, gas prices are on the way back down. Black Monday in Oct 1987 caused a lot of people to jump off the ledge, but those who stuck it out were back to where they started a year or two later. Commercial aviation has a future, I want to be a part of that, and I don't expect to make $90K in the next six years either. I'll settle for being able to eat three squares a day.


However, there is a reason why a new, 1500 hour pilot would work for $19K as a regional FO, it's to GET to the next level. A 5000 hour former major FO who takes that same job while he/she is on furlough must approach it from a different perspective. You don't need to build hours for $19K. If you have a wife and kids, you have to feed them somehow. If she can support you, then that's different. But without knowing Wifeofpilot's specifics and details, all I can say is, it's a simple matter of supply and demand. Supply and demand equations rarely stay stagnant for long periods of time. Right now, supply far exceeds demand. Two and a half years ago, the situation was the opposite. I imagine its possible the situation can reverse itself all over again in two and a half years from now as well.

I might still be misinformed today, but this is what I want to do, I didn't enter this industry for the money. I was making much better money as a computer nerd. This is what I want to do, so I'll accept whatever fate (and salary) has in store for me, knowing that nothing worth having ever came easy.

 

[Cadillac]

Pilot Compensation

This is one of the most important/useful threads I have seen in awhile.
The low pay is hard to believe, unless you believe as most pilots and pilots in training do that it is an "entry position" with a quick upgrade to captain, and then a jump to the majors where the real money rolls in. This myth is perpetuated by the "airlilne pilot shortage scammers" as Enigma put it.

I got into this industry believing this pro da, and I'm slowly finding out that it is not the case. Which leaves me and other up-and-coming airline pilots with the choices of 1) leaving the industry and all that we've invested so far. 2) staying and doing what we can to raise wages. or 3) staying and working for these pitiful wages (or even undercutting them). I intend to go with number 2. Now we need to find a way to do it.

One way is to not go to work for some of the lowest airlines with salarys that are allowing them to undercut higher paying regionals and take their flying. A variant of this is to not pay-for-training or paying for the job as some pilots at some airlines are resorting to. This is the extent I can do to help so far, (other than bullying and intimidating any career-minded students I see out of flying to reduce the number of total pilots )

If I ever get to a regional, then it will be time to find other methods to increase pay. Voting against TA's that ask for concessions, and participating in strikes sound like the way to do it, I only hope I have the courage when the time comes. It sounds easy now, but we'll see when I get there and there are thousands of starry-eyed interns and academy grads waiting to replace me for 12K a year.

As far as the effectiveness of strikes, I have to question that as well. I've seen the spreading out of the mainline flying to multiple regionals that would prevent a single striking airline from having the industry-wide effect it would need to promote a change. I've also yet to see two or more regional airlines contracts come up for renegotiation at the same time. The probability of another successful Comair-type strike resulting in higher wages/conditions may not happen.

That leaves us with finding some other method, perhaps a national, unified regional pilot association that can collectively address the situation to the airlines (who will probably laugh us out of the boardroom) or maybe more successfully, congress. Maybe I'm dreaming. But if its illegal for us to strike while under a legal contract, and a strike during contract negotiations results in no effect, what other options are there?

Concluding this amazingly long rant, I do have hope that this message board will allow unity and discussion from members of ALL regionals, which might result in a workable solution.

 

[Freight Dog]

However, there is a reason why a new, 1500 hour pilot would work for $19K as a regional FO, it's to GET to the next level.

I might still be misinformed today, but this is what I want to do, I didn't enter this industry for the money. I was making much better money as a computer nerd. This is what I want to do, so I'll accept whatever fate (and salary) has in store for me, knowing that nothing worth having ever came easy.

KickSave, you may not be aware, but the supply of major airline jobs has dwindled quite a bit and will most likely stay that way. There IS no NEXT LEVEL. Once you get to the regionals and fly a 70 seat jet, that's it. Don't expect the majors to be hiring. If you look at the boom, it's all in RJ's. Why? Pay/work rules/retirement disparity. Some people will talk it down, but the reality is that the majors flew DC-9's, F-28's and so on for a major-like wage. We now have regional pilots flying 50-90 seat jets literally SETTLING for poverty-wages/slave work rules/no retirement. Look at Mesa for example. For what? Next level? What next level? This is just market forces at work. Major airlines are becoming widebody-only operations flying across both ponds, while regionals are replacing mainline narrowbodies at a pretty alarming rate. What next level are you talking about? SWA, or JetBlue simply don't have enough positions for all those RJ guys who are working for slave wages in order to "get to the next level."

However, you are in a unique position along with thousands of other regional pilots. The sooner you realize that there IS no next level, the sooner you make the stand to improve wages and be 100% willing to walk away from your job if they don't, the sooner you will make regionals a career place and create that "next level" on your level.

 

[wifeofpilot]

Exactly my point. When those poverty wages were agreed to many probably thought, hey, I can live with that for a year or less. Upgrade was fast, majors hiring like crazy. Well that is not the case anymore and I too believe regionals will be a long term career choice.

Think about our situation, let's say my husband is on the RJ for the next 8-10 years before major recalls him. It will be a really hard decision to leave a captain slot with seniority for being last place at the major.