I can't understand the low pay

[TurboS7]

I can't understand thousands of minor league baseball players and coaches that are getting paid nothing while the major league players are making big bucks. I can't understand the piano player at the bar that is playing for tips while a rock star that can only yell profanity is making millions. I can't understand why a women would leave her kids in a car in the heat and let them die, yet I see people pamper their animals like they were worth millions. The lowest paying jobs in aviation are the hardest ones and the highest paying jobs are a piece of cake. I can't understand why a pilot would leave a wonderful family to run off with a flight attendant. I can't understand why people deny the truth and run from the obivious gospel. Having witnessed the birth of my 7 children I can't understand how a doctor and mother could terminate a baby just prior to being born. We live in a crazy mixed up world the sometimes makes no sense.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Let's see now. My husband was furloughed from the majors
while in initial training. Before that worked for a commuter,
before that a charter, before that flight instructing. He has never made a decent wage since he was 17 years old.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME THAT YOU THINK THAT DOESN'T BOTHER HIM? DO YOU LIVE UNDER A ROCK? Where do you put in 16 years and don't get above 19K? Guess what? I am whining and I don't care.

1) It obviously doesn't bother him enough to leave flying and do something else for a living.
2) Your husbad was making far more than $19k flying charter but his dream is obviously with the majors so he went to 121 flying. Don't even start trying to say that 16 years got him UP TO $16K because everyone on this board knows that's plain not true. This is specious.
3) How self centered are you? You admit that you're whining and you don't care about it. Guess what, your husband loves flying and is willing to make sacrifices for it that you are evidently not prepared to make. You may be looking for us to empathize with you or just be miserable with you, but I'm not playing.

Either support your husbands career or don't. But don't come to this message board and blame pilots for doing a job that they love doing and getting market wages for it.

Frankly, your whining is offensive and your attitude is an insult to the people who sacrifice to have a job they have always dreamed of having.

 

[KickSave]

The present system is a long way from perfect, but I don't see any way to change it. All we can do is attempt to counter some of the manure spread by the AirIncs of the world, but even if we scare off all of the civilian wannabees, the military will still train enough pilots to ensure a continuous supply. Where does that leave us? Mostly poor, with scattered rich. My appologies to the w/x guess'rs

regards,
enigma

Ok, more naivete here, but do you really not see any way to change it, or just nothing that seems feasible right now? I guess what I am asking, and this is an honest question, is what would it really take to make the system more favorable? Scaring off all the civilian wannabees isn't a realsitic solution, unless you want to close down every flight school also(which might not be that far off anyway, huh?) but what would work? Perhaps a real national union? What about a new trade association that, unlike ALPA, truly represents all professional pilots and serves them well, through strength, leadership and vision? Is that just a pipe dream, or would something like that actually help? Again, I could be just to darn ignorant to know any better, but I believe every problem has a solution. Every group is only as strong as its leadership.

(Please don't think I'm suggesting anything so silly like having a national union or a strong association would change the supply and demand dynamics here that govern pay scales for regional FO's and such. I'm not. I'm more referring to things like the seniority system, duty regs, retirement, etc that seem to be less governed by simple economics and more goverened by what one can negotiate.)

I'm asking this stuff because I honestly want to understand more, what professional pilots think would help the situation, and what they would change if they could (besides the obvious

 

[TXCAP4228]

Ok, more naivete here, but do you really not see any way to change it, or just nothing that seems feasible right now? I guess what I am asking, and this is an honest question, is what would it really take to make the system more favorable? Scaring off all the civilian wannabees isn't a realsitic solution, unless you want to close down every flight school also(which might not be that far off anyway, huh?) but what would work? Perhaps a real national union? What about a new trade association that, unlike ALPA, truly represents all professional pilots and serves them well, through strength, leadership and vision? Is that just a pipe dream, or would something like that actually help? Again, I could be just to darn ignorant to know any better, but I believe every problem has a solution. Every group is only as strong as its leadership.

Here is another possible solution. Completely abolish unions.

In any other job, someone with the necessary skills could walk out of one job and into another one if there was an open position. Why can't the same be true for pilots?

The answer? Unions.

Why are your skills not portable? Because your union locks you into a seniority situaiton.

Why do regional pilots make less than mainline pilots? Unions.

Why do the newest pilots always get furloughed regardless pilot qualifications? Unions.

If I were y'all, I wouldn't be looking to unions as an answer, I would recognize them as them problem.

 

[Publishers]

unions

Now don't start saying things like that around here. The good always comes with some bad and actually your example has some truth to it. The structure of the unions is to get the most people to agree to a contract. Thus the bottom group is always getting the bottom feedings.

There are other jobs in aviation that pay more that are not airlines that the person that started this thread could do. Therefore the thinking is but this is what I want to do and why should the pay be so low.

What is also being said is that I do not want to spend my time doing something else in the interim. Now I meet pilots flying all the time that are on furlough and now flying in a corporate jet or even some King Air. They are making more than $19000 so it is possible.

The thinking that brought the person to this thinking is exactly what keeps the valuye where it is.

 

[Freight Dog]

TXCAP, easy there.....with all due respect, with 600 hours, and a private/instrument ticket, I don't think you're quite qualified to make judgment on problems in our industry, especially when it comes to pilot unions.

 

[Ben Dover]

Not a bad idea TXCAP. Bag the unions and let everyone negociate their own pay. When everything washes out, you may be surprised to see the resulting pay structure. Then let pay raises, bidding, and the like be determined by a combination of longevity and job performance like the rest of the world.

 

[TXCAP4228]

TXCAP, easy there.....with all due respect, with 600 hours, and a private/instrument ticket, I don't think you're quite qualified to make judgment on problems in our industry, especially when it comes to pilot unions.

Come on Freight dog, this is a little weak.

1) My time and certificates have nothing to do with my ability to judge this industry. You have no idea what I do for a living or what my background is. Maybe I'm an investment banker that helped create Southwest airlines. Maybe I'm in a line of work that evaluates companies for commercial lending purposes. Maybe I just have a brain that allows me to see and evaluate how the business world works - airlines or fast food places. Maybe I have a clue.

2) Pilot unions are pretty straighforward, and anyone with a brain can see how they work - and how they fail.

3) Pilot unions aren't the only unions that fail, but for several reasons they do top the list.

4) My arguments are valid until you refute the substance of them.

5) I am willing to engage you in a friendly discussion to defend what I have said if you are willing to use reason to justify a counter point. But "you don't have enough hours" is a little weak.

 

[Freight Dog]

Come on Freight dog, this is a little weak.

OK, perhaps it was a little bit.. but nothing like a healthy friendly debate.

1) My time and certificates have nothing to do with my ability to judge this industry. You have no idea what I do for a living or what my background is. Maybe I'm an investment banker that helped create Southwest airlines. Maybe I'm in a line of work that evaluates companies for commercial lending purposes. Maybe I just have a brain that allows me to see and evaluate how the business world works - airlines or fast food places. Maybe I have a clue.

It's interesting that if you are indeed in that line of work you don't seem to recognize airline managements as being a far bigger problem than pilot unions. I don't need to point out record losses, pay cuts forced on unions in order to 'save their airline' when instead the pay cuts go to pay for bonuses for management.

2) Pilot unions are pretty straighforward, and anyone with a brain can see how they work - and how they fail.

Have you seen any success stories of pilot unions? I think ALPA has done many things to improve safety that are now an industry standard. ALPA's role goes way beyond your traditional union role of simply negotiating contracts and collect dues. What do you think of B777?

3) Pilot unions aren't the only unions that fail, but for several reasons they do top the list.

Fail in what way? Pay? Work rules? It's the perception. Personally, I think ALPA dropped the ball when they allowed any new jets on regional property that weren't grandfathered, hence the current problem. It can be fixed, but it takes people/union members to make a stand. You say that pilot unions fail, and I say that pilot population fails when they are willing to sell their mother for the position to sit in the right seat of a jet which brings me to the topic of this thread. When Comair pilots went on strike in 2001, they walked for 89 days to end the second-class treatment of regional pilots by airline managements. That took cajones, and boy you gotta hand it to them for holding the line that long. Air Wisconsin continued the trend as they were ready to walk away too. Mesa dropped the ball. The eyes are on Mesaba and ASA. You see, up until fairly recently, you would come to a regional, you'd upgrade while on probation and you'd be outta there in a very short order, so of course you would see the low pay as a short-term necessary evil to get to the majors where 2nd year pay tops the top regional captain payscales. But see, that's not the case anymore, and it obviously takes time to sink in. Now, where the union comes in, ALPA national will provide you with lawyers and financial analysts to help you negotiate your contract, but the negotiating team consists of pilots at that airline. If they're willing to sell themselves short, it's not the union's fault. It's the pilot group's fault as they vote on the TA and their elected officers. Like I said, until the newcomers realize that it doesn't pay to whore themselves for jet time, you'll see this trend continue. The union is only as strong as their membership.

4) My arguments are valid until you refute the substance of them.

5) I am willing to engage you in a friendly discussion to defend what I have said if you are willing to use reason to justify a counter point. But "you don't have enough hours" is a little weak.

You mention seniority as a problem in your previous post... look at it from this perspective, we have a vested interest in well-being of our airlines. If managements had the same system in place, you wouldn't see the rape and pillage of major airlines that took place. Look at UAL for example. Think their current situation is their pilots' fault because of their pre-9/11 payscales? How about Hawaiian Airlines and Boeing successfully suing to remove their CEO? How about the outcry about AMR execs lining themselves up for multimillion dollar bonuses while asking all its employee groups to take paycuts?

Having a union is not a win for employees, but rather a failure of management. In other words, the only thing worse than having a union is NOT having one.

Some suggested reading.... Flying the Line I and II.

Your turn...

 

[KickSave]

I have a question... are there any airlines that are completely employee owned, like the way Avis Car Rental advertises they are? It seems to me that a Union is powerless to negotiate better pay when the market conditions don't warrant it, such as the current economy of the last few years. It also seems to me that it's impossible for a Union to adequately represent ALL it's members when it comes to issues of compensation, when revenues are down to to these conditions. If a 9/11 and sluggish economy makes passengers stay at home, and cost reduction is necessary, it strikes me as impossible for a group to vote for it's own common good.

As an example, if you MUST reduce labor costs, you could either ask everyone to take a 50% cut in pay, or furlough 1/3 of the pilots and ask the rest to take a 20% cut in pay. Seems like there's little way to get a vote that isn't self serving - you either want to keep your job at 50% pay (you're the 1/3 that will get lopped off) or you want to keep your job at a 20% cut (you're the senior 2/3s that is safe from furlough). The Union would be split.

But what about a contract that adjusts salaries based on profit sharing, such as an employee owned airline might have? One that provides for fat salaries when times are good and profitable, and across the board reductions when things get tight like they are now. Even if pricewars force fares to bare minimum to keep the planes full, expenses would automatically come down as needed. What part of the real life equation am I missing here, and has this ever been done before?


(BTW, I will be picking up those books, FTL I & II ASAP, so I can stop asking so many stupid questions )