How was the ATL job fair?

[Flythis]

I am disappointed to see that there is still a never-ending supply of wannabe airline types still hitting the aviation crack pipe. News flash: Flying is a job. Yes, it can be a very rewarding and enjoyable job however if the next generation of pilots doesn’t get it through their brain bags that it is a profession that should be respected even at the lowest levels, then you can’t expect to get paid well at the highest. I.e. If you work for nothing on the way up, those with the purse strings are going to look at each other and wonder why they are paying you anything to fly that 777, because hey, “you love to fly”. Just ask a PFT’r from the 90’s how their career is? I have no sympathy. A pilot shortage is when the majors hire you with a private and 200 hours. That has not happened since the late 60’s. You fukcing idiots out there who work for nothing just so you can get to fly a “heavy” are fools. If someone paid me a decent wage I would fly a 172 around all day long. Money and quality of life is what it is all about. Pilots are own worst enemy. Pilotyip you disgust me.

 

[bobbysamd]

Reply to Rebuttal

I was including the 12 years standard education through high school in the 20 years, so I am still pretty close.

Most people would have understood bozt45's statement to mean twenty years post high school. Everyone, even your non-college aviation career poster people, would have twelve years of standard education . . . .

[T]he pilots who flew in W.W.II were almost all HS grads . . . .

Because they were needed, drafted, and had not yet gone to college. Probably because of the belief of the day that only young men barely out of their teens were bomber and fighter meat, because, it was believed, that men older than twenty-four were over the hill and had lost their reflexes. Pappy Boyington and others disproved that old wives' tale. Ted Williams was 35 when the Marines recalled him to fly Furies in Korea. Chuck Yeager was in his forties when he flew B-57s in Viet Nam. Most of Gen. Yeager's pilots were AF officers with college degrees.

The education of a pilot may make them a better person in a broad sense, but it truly has nothing to do with flying an airplane. My intent to flame, not really I just have a different point of view from my career and my experiences.

You use your position as a person who hires pilots as a bully pulpit to advocate your no-college, TJPIC-now career path to young people who ask for career advice. That is irresponsible, not just a different viewpoint.

 

[pilotyip]

Post reply to rebuttal part II

Bobby, I do not understand what you are saying? Are you telling me college grads would have done a better job in W.W.II? They would have been more capable than the guys who actually did the job would? BTW no aircrew members were drafted. I have masters because the gov't paid me to go to school while I was between jobs, GI bill great stuff. Plus masters probably helped me get promoted to O-6, get another command and increase my retirement. But it has nothing to do with flying an airplane and that is all I have ever said. You do not need a college degree to succeed in aviation. I am only a small voice in the wilderness of the college only path advocated by the majority of the pilots on this site. Who listens to me besides you Bobby? Back to the mucking fonkeys some had college degrees, because it has no influence on the ability to fly. BTW II our 24 year old wonder kid is now flying the DC-9 while building time to bid Capt. on the DA-20 to start logging the gold seal of resume fluff TJPIC. He is only a few credits away from a 4-yr. degree. Best of both worlds he will do well. If I ever get to Denver again, like if Kit has a job fair in Denver we can continue this over beer and bar-b-q. We will never settle it here.

 

[bobbysamd]

College attendance - then and now

Are you telling me college grads would have done a better job in W.W.II?

No. They were needed, drafted and had to serve. Otherwise, many of them would have gone to college. Many of them went to college after the war on the GI Bill. Moreover, in those days, not that many people went to college altogether because they had to work and could not go to college. Not that they didn't want to. The country was coming off the Great Depression back then. These days, anyone can go to college, better themselves, earn a degree, and be better prepared for life.

You do not need a college degree to succeed in aviation. I am only a small voice in the wilderness of the college only path advocated by the majority of the pilots on this site. Who listens to me besides you Bobby?

I do not listen to you at all, Yip. Far from it. I counter your bogus advice because so many impressionable young people read this board. They read your "advice," consider your position as someone who hires pilots, and have second thoughts about college. They need to know that taking your advice about not going to college could hurt them later.

BTW II our 24 year old wonder kid is now flying the DC-9 while building time to bid Capt. on the DA-20 to start logging the gold seal of resume fluff TJPIC . . . .

A very lucky kid. The percentages show that he is in the minority. You did not say earlier that he had nearly finished his degree. Everything you had said about this young man implied that he had finished only high school. Please provide all facts next time.

 

[PCL_128]

I wonder who the newbies on this board should take advice from: the pilot that is in charge of hiring other pilots, or the paralegal? Huh, tough decision.

 

[b757driver]

I happen to agree with Yip on the degree thing. It does not make you a better pilot. It may make your options broader and make you more competitive but per se, it has little to do with the cognitive skills required in the cockpit. I know plenty of pilots who have degrees in chemistry, pharmacy, social studies etc. These are not even scientific degrees in the true sense such as physics or math.
With regard to the ease of getting advanced ratings, I happen to agree with botz45 and as a former military officer (with a scientific degree) and having done all my initial training in Europe (years ago), I can speak with some authority on the subject.
When I obtained my initial commmercial ratings and eventual ATP, I had to sit no less than 15 INDIVIDUAL EXAMS including morse code, performance A and weight and balance. Passing grades in everything was 70% and you had to pass all subjects. Some of them were split such as Nav general and Nav theory, Met theory and Met practical. Once you passed all subjects, you had to to a similar academic course/exams for your ATP upgrade once you had the hours. So, it was a very differentbeast than the FAA tests which I subsequently took. I know have THREE ICAO ATPs and a college degree. Yet, when I came to apply to the majors some 10 years ago, not a single interview!! What does that tell you??!!
Also, the emphasis on degrees and military pilots is FAR less outside the US. Most other countries have a true mix of candidates. For example, on a typical British Airways pilot selection, you will find a wide range of candidates, much more so than in any US airline selection procedure. These people will range from seasoned airline captains, airline FOs, military pilots, flight instructors, air taxi, male and female with ages ranging from early 20s to late 40s - even early 50s. Now that's what I call a diverse group of people and it seems to work for them! Months later these very same people end up flying A320s or B777s on international routes. Some of them will have degrees and some will not. But......they all have something to offer and clearly, it works because they have been doing it for years.
Here, on the other hand, there is sometimes too much emphasis on college degrees, hours, PIC hours, type of aircraft flown. I have seen this in other fields as well going from one extreme to another with no middle ground. Perhaps if the FAA and the airline recruiting staff were a less rigid, dare I say, hell bent, on insisting on certain criteria and going with the times, things might be a little better.
Just a few observations having seen it all from two very different sides.
Finally, I have the full respect and admiration for all those folks that gave us our freedom in WWII and other conflicts, with or without degrees.

 

[bobbysamd]

Don't throw stones . . . . .

I wonder who the newbies on this board should take advice from: the pilot that is in charge of hiring other pilots, or the paralegal? Huh, tough decision.

As an ex-Gulfstream employee who is undoubtedly knowledgeable of, if not an actual participant in, its P-F-T program, you live in a glass house and shouldn't throw stones.

Read my background and some of my posts before deciding who is giving bad advice. I was a professional pilot long before I became a paralegal. The one in charge of hiring pilots has his own prejudices which are not reflective of the industry and is someone who is just plain dispensing bad advice to young people.

Even hear the expression, "Glass Ceiling"? That's what you'll hit if you don't have the degree.

 

[PCL_128]

Read my background and some of my posts before you pass judgment. The one in charge of hiring pilots has his own prejudices which are not reflective of the industry.

Even heard of the expression, "Glass Ceiling"? That's what you'll hit if you don't have the degree.

Bobby, I know your background. The fact remains that you never made it to the airlines so I find it somewhat strange for you to be passing on advice to people on how to do what you never could. When I search for advice on something, I find someone that has been successful at what I hope to accomplish. I don't ask advice of someone that failed to reach their goal.

I don't have a degree and I'm currently logging jet time and in a few short months I will be logging jet PIC time. By the time the airlines are hiring in big numbers I will have several thousand hours of TJPIC and I will have finished my degree which I've been working on through ERAU's distance learning classes. Going to college instead of going straight to flight training would have been a big mistake for me. I'm not saying that you shouldn't get the degree, I'm just saying that going straight for the degree out of high school is probably not the best idea if you want to go to the airlines. Build some TJPIC time while you work on the degree and you will be years ahead of everyone else. E. Gann always said we are slaves to the numbers, and several years is a lot of seniority numbers.

 

[PCL_128]

Not really on topic here, but I found this interesting from the old thread that Bobby posted:

If you start at zero time now at GIA, you will finish the FO program in about 18 months. The chances that Pinnacle will still be hiring from GIA in 18 months are almost nothing.

I posted that about 2 years ago. We just stopped hiring the GIA guys last month, so I was only off by about 6 months. Not too bad.

 

[bobbysamd]

You have a disciple, Yip . . .

The fact remains that you never made it to the airlines so I find it somewhat strange for you to be passing on advice to people on how to do what you never could. When I search for advice on something, I find someone that has been successful at what I hope to accomplish. I don't ask advice of someone that failed to reach their goal.

Notwithstanding institutional forces and eschewing buying a job out-of-hand, the only difference is I was told "no." That does not make me any less knowledgeable about pilot hiring.

Besides, I know how young people think because I was young once. Kids will avoid doing what is good for them if someone like Yip, in perceived authority, tells them it is not needed. They usually regret it later. In that respect, yes, I know exactly what I am talking about.

I don't have a degree and I'm currently logging jet time and in a few short months I will be logging jet PIC time. By the time the airlines are hiring in big numbers I will have several thousand hours of TJPIC and I will have finished my degree which I've been working on through ERAU's distance learning classes. Going to college instead of going straight to flight training would have been a big mistake for me. I'm not saying that you shouldn't get the degree, I'm just saying that going straight for the degree out of high school is probably not the best idea if you want to go to the airlines. Build some TJPIC time while you work on the degree and you will be years ahead of everyone else.

It remains a big "if" on the airlines hiring in big numbers. Therefore, you should prepare yourself for logging "TJPIC" at your regional for a long time.

In your case, good for you that you are working on an online degree. Even better if you actually finish. I submit that most people, after working for a few years and getting out of "school" mode, never return to school, despite their best intentions. Because I am talking about most people and not you, your advice about going for "TJPIC" right out of high school is just as bad as the advice Yip dispenses.

 

[inline]

One reason doctors and lawyers are more respected and considered more professional is that it is difficult and time consuming to achieve those titles.

Once a doctor or attorney gets their license to practice,no more tests! His/her career isn't on the line every 6 or 12 months like a commercial pilot's in a PC check.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Bobby, I know your background. The fact remains that you never made it to the airlines so I find it somewhat strange for you to be passing on advice to people on how to do what you never could. When I search for advice on something, I find someone that has been successful at what I hope to accomplish. I don't ask advice of someone that failed to reach their goal.

Actually, you can learn a lot from others' failures. How NOT to do things. Bobby comes in here and puts down that which has helped others find employment. Just because it didn't help him, it must be bad. He hasn't been in this business for years, yet comes in here and tells us all how it is. He hasn't been to a job fair in over a decade, yet comes in here and tells us that what is being said there is a pack of lies and he knows not what is being said. He'll then ignore corrections to his false claims and bring them up again next time the subject comes up. It was Kit Darby's fault that he couldn't land an airline job over a period of time when tens of thousands of pilots were hired. He was a victim of age discrimination. He asked a question at an interview, oh that cost him another job...better not do that. Sort of reminds me of the proverbial guy who couldn't get laid in a whorehouse. The broken record gets old.

 

[PCL_128]

Actually, you can learn a lot from others' failures. How NOT to do things.

Ahh, excellent point.

 

[bobbysamd]

Broken record

He hasn't been to a job fair in over a decade, yet comes in here and tells us that what is being said there is a pack of lies and he knows not what is being said.

"Been there, done that." It only took one experience. More people agree with me about Kit's job fairs than disagree.

It was Kit Darby's fault that he couldn't land an airline job over a period of time when tens of thousands of pilots were hired.

Ever heard of the term, "misquote," Hugh? You just have.

I took Kit's advice about (1) how to write cover letters, (2) how to write resumes, (3) what to wear at interviews, (4) which interview books to read. I bought the whole package, lock, stock and barrel. Did everything he told me to do. I don't blame Kit for anything, except for buying into his "pilot shortage" sophistry.

I did use Irv Jasinski, one of Kit's vendors, to prep for an interview. I did that after reading Irv's book, which Kit sold me. Glad I did. I got the job.

He was a victim of age discrimination.

Yes. I believe I was. Little intelligence is needed to determine that when one applies to the same companies as one's co-workers, who are fifteen years or more younger, and they get called and I, at forty, am not, that I suffered age discrimination. I'm not the only one; read this thread, if you dare.

He asked a question at an interview, oh that cost him another job...better not do that.

I stand by my position on that as well. One never knows for sure with whom he/she is interviewing. I did not know until years later that the person with whom I was interviewing was anti-RJ. Ironically, Mesa has become a leading operator of both RJs. Watch what you say or ask at interviews.

The broken record gets old.

Whether or not you like it, I stand by everything I have written.

 

[PCL_128]

Seeing as how there have been hundreds of over-40 regional pilots hired, I don't believe for a second that age discrimination had anything to do with you not getting hired. Bad attitude is probably more likely.

 

[bobbysamd]

Bobbysamd's "tude"

Seeing as how there have been hundreds of over-40 regional pilots hired, I don't believe for a second that age discrimination had anything to do with you not getting hired.

Once again, as someone who bought his/her way in, you are in no position to criticize.

Once more, a point of clarification. I do not believe that over-forty pilots who have been flying for years and who have corporate, 135, military or other advanced experience suffer age discrimination. Members of the "club." Once more, I believe that career changers, such as myself, who started later and offer only flight instructing experience, such as my younger peers at the time, experience age discrimination.

Bad attitude is probably more likely.

No bad attitude here, my "friend." I fell over myself expressing my gratitude at being given even a few minutes of time, because my interviews were so few, and short in duration. When one is asked only a few basic questions, one has few opportunities to exhibit one's 'tude.

Bad attitude, as I understand it; correct me if I'm wrong; includes, e.g., exhibiting discourtesy to an interviewer, not answering questions, and acting as if being there is a waste of time. I was hired into other aviation jobs where employers spent more time with me, such as over a period of days at one company, and had plenty of opportunities to see my "bad" "attitude." In any event, I did not pay companies for any of my interviews.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Bobby once in a while has some good advice, but he spreads more bad gouge based on his bitterness and what sounds like an inability to accurately assess his failures than good. I'm guessing there's not a paralegal message board out there.

YIP has a lot of good advice to offer, but it's often hard to see it through the lunacy of his college degree theories.

I'm thinking, between the two of them, we could come up with enough bad advice to build the perfect un-hireable pilot.

 

[bobbysamd]

Bobby once in a while has some good advice, but he spreads more bad gouge based on his bitterness and what sounds like an inability to accurately assess his failures than good.

To thine ownself be true, Hugh. Everything I have related is based on my experiences.

I've always said that I am not the poster boy for aviation career building and hiring. I've learned from my experiences (which is something always emphasized for answering interview questions). That's why I have shared my experiences, maybe more freely than I should. Perhaps others can learn from my mistakes, and experiences.

 

[PCL_128]

Once more, a point of clarification. I do not believe that over-forty pilots who have been flying for years and who have corporate, 135, miliary or other advanced experience suffer age discrimination. Members of the "club." Once more, I believe that career changers, such as myself, who started later and offer only flight instructing experience, such as my younger peers at the time, experience age discrimination.

I'm not talking military or other "connected" people Bobby. I fly all the time with captains that got their start in aviation over the age of 40 and had nothing but flight instructing or check hauling experience when they got their regional jobs. I had students also that have since gotten jobs at many different regionals even though they were over 40 when they started.

Maybe it wasn't bad attitude Bobby, I don't know. It could have been any number of things: failed checkrides, something bad on the background check, too many speeding tickets, whatever. The fact is that many pilots with your exact same level of experience at the exact same age received job offers at the same airlines you interviewed at. In my opinion, that rules out age discrimination.

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination and interview problems ASIDE

I'm not talking military or other "connected" people Bobby. I fly all the time with captains that got their start in aviation over the age of 40 and had nothing but flight instructing or check hauling experience when they got their regional jobs. I had students also that have since gotten jobs at many different regionals even though they were over 40 when they started.

Maybe it wasn't bad attitude Bobby, I don't know. It could have been any number of things: failed checkrides, something bad on the background check, too many speeding tickets, whatever. The fact is that many pilots with your exact same level of experience at the exact same age received job offers at the same airlines you interviewed at. In my opinion, that rules out age discrimination.

Check hauling experience is 135 time, which makes one a club member and less susceptible to age discrimination. Even so, I had a friend, female, who had good 135 time hauling Ameriflight freight and flying Air Nevada ditch tours in the mid '80s. Far better qualified than me - and close to my age. Good role model. She tried for years to get an Horizon interview, unsuccessfully. But, some of our coworkers, with far less experience, no 135 and much younger, got interviews and jobs at Horizon.

In any event, despite factual evidence to the contrary, you are entitled to your opinion.