How was the ATL job fair?

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Pinnacle doesn't have a sim ride. Neither does USA Jet, TSA, Comair or Delta. A lot of places don't have a sim ride.

I know of Army aviation guys who were hired at past job fairs, and others who were interviewed at the fairs. I was going to go before, but I got a class date just before the job fair.

Good luck to all of you!

Cliff
GRB

 

[Fly4hire]

Fly because you like to, if you are in it for the money you may be disappointed

Your tag line is part of what's going wrong with this whole profession. It makes me cringe when I hear this drivel, which is right up there with "I can't believe they pay me to do this".

I love to fly, and can't dream of doing anything else for a living as long as I'm physically able. That, however is with the considerable caveat that I consider myself a highly skilled and trained professional and expect to be compensated accordingly. When I can no longer support my family, save for retirement and kids college, afford some of the better things in life, and have the time to enjoy them flying as a profession will no longer be worth it. At that point I'll go buy a little airplane to indulge my love of flying.

Doctors, lawyers, and other similar professionals don't sell their services short like we do in this profession. Why do we? Because we "love to fly".

As I read your musings about the impending pilot shortage, I'm convinced it will only be in the ranks of the low paying, crappy work rule and benefit variety, where there is an endless supply of snot-nosed 500 hr CFI's peeing themselves in excitement for the opportunity of flying a jet.

My father told me as I was growing up that very few of us have the benefit of having a profession we love and get paid well for. The vast majority of people dislike their jobs but do it to survive and live for the weekends.

For those who have an activity they love but don't get paid for it there are hobbies.

 

[b757driver]

I agree with Fly4Hire 100%. This country's aviation industry has been decimated. It is no longer a leader in the international field. I have worked overseas many times when I could not find work here and I was forced to do so. Why? Because the pay, conditions, vacations - you name it, were far superior than here.
On occasions I would return and interview with various companies. The one SINGLE factor that really sucks is the pay. Matter of fact, I have had 3 interviews while on leave the past month. ALL of them are lower than what I'm making now and ALL of them are lower than what I was making 6 YEARS AGO when I last worked for a US airline.
Where's the incentive, Mr. Yip? I do love flying but the remuneration is insufficient to support the family and a crash pad. I used to be a rah, rah 25-year-old, 1000 hr guy once but that kind of mentality does not cut it for me any more. I don't see many other professionals saying, sure I'll take a paycut, never mind any retirement, I'll just do it for the "fun". How can you be respected in your profession if you have to get food stamps at the grocery store? Heck, my wife, as a social worker earns TWICE as much as most pilots!!!!!

 

[FLB717]

Fun: 3 bitchy F/A's, 117 Pax who pay $70 and want REAL food, the FAA ready to violate anyone who coughs wrong, internse industry pressure, high fuel prices over everyones heads, and ice on the runway with a 30 knot crosswind in a ragin snow storm and a short runway. Yeah its worth getting paid in Fun. After all we are nothing but buss drivers.

 

[pilotyip]

Not my fault

fly4, There is no comparison, Doctors are knowledge workers, and pilots are skilled workers. Doctors go to school for up to 20 years, work for slave wages until established in practice. Anyone with a certain level of skill and desire can be a pilot, no high school diploma, no college BS degree required, no Ph.D. in Medicine like a doctor, just go to a trade school and develop a skill. Pilots unlike Doctors, CPA's and Engineers have no unique abilities that allow them to change jobs and be paid close to their last job. The job can be done by anyone with a Comm/MEL/Inst. High earnings are based upon seniority within a company's pay structure. Mucking Fomkeys can make take off and landings it is not that big a deal. I know I have trained them. When you can not live on a pilot’s pay, you go somewhere else where you can get better pay. I have had four non-flying jobs while waiting for a chance to get back into aviation. I have never seen a $100K in my life and I would be happy to work for that. I am still living my dream and it is not for any else to pass judgement upon my career.

 

[SWAnnabee]

"Allow me to retort." Samuel Jackson AKA Jules Pulp Fiction

fly4, There is no comparison, Doctors are knowledge workers, and pilots are skilled workers.

Wrong. Doctors are knowledge and skill. Its not enough to have the book smarts, you have to have the dexterity and judgement also to be a doctor. JUST LIKE PILOTS.

Doctors go to school for up to 20 years, work for slave wages until established in practice.

Wrong. Doctors go to school for an average of 7-8 years, then internship and residency, another 3-4 years. So, 10-12 years tops. Slave wages is a relative term. Out of internship and residency, as much as an RJ CA easily. My father is a doctor so I'm pretty sure I speak from a position of authority on the subject.

Anyone with a certain level of skill and desire can be a pilot, no high school diploma, no college BS degree required, no Ph.D. in Medicine like a doctor, just go to a trade school and develop a skill.

Yea, sure. A private pilot, maybe. MAYBE. Think anyone can do it?? Lets ask all the students I saw attrited out of Navy flight school while I was a student and instructor pilot. How bout the guys that don't pass 121 ground school or IOE? Or those that flunk the sim check during an interview?

I am still living my dream and it is not for any else to pass judgement upon my career.

Haven't seen anyone yet criticize your career. Just your judgement and gullibility concerning Kit's Cool-Aid. Personally, if I had as many responses trying to get me to see the fallacy of an opinion I posted, I would be inclined to listen. Unless, of course, you are right and so many others a wrong. But, that strikes of ego and thick headedness to me. Some of your posts are also what I would consider an attempt at flame bait. I think it was Mark Twain who said, "Better to be suspected a fool and keep silent, rather than to open your mouth and confirm it." Or words to that effect.

 

[bobbysamd]

GEDs for pilots and "Do as I say, not as I do."

Anyone with a certain level of skill and desire can be a pilot, no high school diploma, no college BS degree required . . . .

Is that why you preach foregoing college in favor of flying to build that all-important "TJPIC" time, Yip? Therefore, why not forego high school altogether? One can read a prep book to pass the GED. One can solo at 16, earn a Private at 17 and a Commercial (see below) at 18. You said that is all you need . . . .

(Kinda confirms what I thought all along when I was in high school - that it was a waste of time. )

Please explain, then, why military aviators are generally officers, who generally possess at least a four-year degree. Such as yourself. Is flying a civilian DC-9, such as what you operate along with the Falcon 20s at USA Jets, any less difficult and any less demanding than flying its military equivalent, the C-9? Further,

The job can be done by anyone with a Comm/MEL/Inst. High earnings are based upon seniority within a company's pay structure. Mucking Fomkeys can make take off and landings it is not that big a deal. I know I have trained them . . . .

(emphasis added)

As someone who hires pilots for your company, Yip, your last statement is most telling. It shows the high regard in which you obviously hold your employees.

I am still living my dream and it is not for any else to pass judgement upon my career.

Though your career advice, about foregoing education to build "TJPIC," is inconsistent with how you went about building your career.

Finally, medical doctors earn M.D. degrees, not Ph.Ds.

 

[b757driver]

bozt45 and bobby, hats off to both of you! Very eloquent rebuttals.

I think you have just revealed why some of the current hiring practices are so twisted. No wonder the industry is in such turmoil.

Maybe you should have been defense lawyers....oh, I see you are a paralegal, bobby!!

 

[pilotyip]

No ill will

Yo botz45, I was including the 12 years standard education through high school in the 20 years, so I am still pretty close. I am only repeating something beat up on another thread. The consensus of that thread, doctors and lawyers are in a different category than pilots. Again from an old posting, the pilots who flew in W.W.II were almost all HS grads, the same for the Vietnam era Army and Marine Helo guys. They performed feats under conditions that would try the core of our souls. An example of 351st BS of the 100th BG, deployed to England Jun 43, 10 planes, 10 crews 10 members each, 100 total by the end of the year all but three were dead, POWs or MIA. Maybe because I fly the B-17 and I have meet some of the B-17 vets, I find I admire them tremendously and it distorts my view of the degree thing. They were not judged by their degrees. My PPC in P-3’s while flying around Vietnam did not have a college degree, he was a NavCad, and he was an awesome pilot. Now a retired DAL Captain. These are my hero's and their degrees had nothing to do with who they were. The education of a pilot may make them a better person in a broad sense, but it truly has nothing to do with flying an airplane. My intent to flame, not really I just have a different point of view from my career and my experiences. I would not expect a very board view of the world for this is a pilot's board and we get the narrow view from a pilots prospective. We would all have a great conversation and discussions over beer and bar-b-q. I bear no one ill will.

 

[pilotyip]

Rebuttal

Bobby, I told you before I blew it by going to college. Had I dropped out of college in 1963 and gone into the Navy under the Nav Cad program I would have gotten out in 1968 and been hired by a major, never laid off, and made Captain in short period of time. As it was when I got out it was out of sync with the hiring cycles and I never was in the right place at the right time. BTW the mucking fonkeys I refered to, were civilian primary students I have trained. You were reading too much into a statement.

 

[pilotyip]

More later

With the coming of the 2007 hiring boom, the college degree will start to carry less importance in the hiring process. Much like the late 90's when 70% pilots hired by the majors and nationals did not have college degrees.

 

[SWAnnabee]

Lament of the industry

The consensus of that thread, doctors and lawyers are in a different category than pilots.

Only because we, as pilots, have allowed this to happen. This was once a profession, regardless of the state of the airline one worked for, that held the respect and admiration of others. I would also add that at one time pilots could have been considered on par more with white collar professionals rather than the blue collar skilled worker.

We hear the term "slipery slope" often in the media lately concerning precedent setting court decisions. Well we as pilots, over the course of the last three decades, have created a few slipery slopes of our own that have caused the erosion of this profession. While I agree with you, fundamentally, that being a pilot does not require a college degree, removing such an employment requirement somehow takes away from the white collar association we all would like to have. Constantly trying to undercut the other fellows pay in order to land the next stepping-stone position has driven down once respectable wages.

I also have my own personal opinion concerning the FAA's requirements for testing and achieving advanced pilot certificates. Frankly, I think it is too easy to get a commercial and ATP license. One reason doctors and lawyers are more respected and considered more professional is that it is difficult and time consuming to achieve those titles. With pilot ratings, its just time consuming, ie meet the hours and you pretty much get the rating. Doctors and lawyers must not only attend years of formal schooling, but then pass a board or bar exam. Put similar requirements on achieving commercial and ATP ratings and you would not only validate the professionalism of pilots but also separate more of the "wheat from the chaff". This, in turn, would lead to fewer pilots available who are more highly trained, tested, and scruitinized which would have the combined effect of improving the image and reducing supply and increasing demand. This is how wages are determined. Not many neurosurgeons out there, hence higher demand for those that exist and better pay. Opinions welcome.

 

[pilotyip]

Botz45, but the logic does not follow in the 70's when the pilot profession was at the height of its image, a college degree was not required. It was the limit of supply you refer to that was caused by regulation. Under this structure airlines charged CAB approved rates on a route and pilots were well paid. Now comes de-reg and the pilot becomes a commodity to bid to the lowest level Adam Smith “Wealth of Nations” revealed in airline business. The college degree really has little to do with the condition of today’s airlines. However on the lower end of the business and back to the beginning of this thread. Pinnacle may have to raise its pay and working conditions to fill it seats. Adam Smith applied to lower end of the business and providing upward pressure for wages and benefits..

 

[SWAnnabee]

Botz45, but the logic does not follow in the 70's when the pilot profession was at the height of its image, a college degree was not required.

Maybe not required because, correct me if I am wrong, a majority of pilots in the 70s were former military officers which required college, ie Navy, Air Force, Marine. It just went with the territory.

The college degree really has little to do with the condition of today’s airlines.

I agree. I also never stated this. I drew a correlation between lack of a college degree and the loss of white collar status in the pilot profession.

 

[bobbysamd]

"Do what I say, not what I do," continued . . . .

Had I dropped out of college in 1963 and gone into the Navy under the Nav Cad program I would have gotten out in 1968 and been hired by a major, never laid off, and made Captain in short period of time.

You did what you did, Yip. There is no unringing of that bell; moreover, as set forth above, the vast majority of military pilots are officers, with degrees. Why is it that the AF gets its pilots primarily from the Academy and ROTC? Once more, officers!!

If you made such an error, why did you go on the earn a Masters?

You did not blow it al all by going to college. Perhaps unwittingly, you helped yourself. Weren't you, or aren't you still, a substitute teacher? Didn't that provide some money for you while you were out of aviation? Gotta have them credentials. And, as previously discussed at length, your degree made you eligible for hire at every airline.

What you're doing, Yip, is taking an inconsistent position. In the law (since someone brought it up), that's called an estoppel. You are estopped, i.e., not permitted, to take an inconsistent position.

[T]he mucking fonkeys I refered to, were civilian primary students I have trained. You were reading too much into a statement.

I read your statement, Yip, exactly as presented, in its context. Be that as it may, it shows how much you think of primary students - who, if they follow your proposed career path of skipping college (and/or high school) might end up asking you for a job! At least they know where they'll stand. What goes around comes around.

With the coming of the 2007 hiring boom, the college degree will start to carry less importance in the hiring process. Much like the late 90's when 70% pilots hired by the majors and nationals did not have college degrees.

(emphasis added)

As Ronald Reagan said, "There you go again." Still drinking Kit's Kool-Aid. Enjoy!!