HAL hiring

[Dan Roman]

Ha! Hawaii is not an unfriendly place when it comes to the mighty dollar. Everyone thought Go would be met with hostility. Instead the locals loved the price. If any airline decided to come in inter island and fly to the West Coast, Alaska is liked, the locals will go wherever the cheapest fare is. And from what I see the inter island fares are much to high, since Aloha folded, for the locals. A merger or acquisition or better yet new arrival will be welcomed as long as fares come down. Unfriendly, I think not, that's your ego talking.

Go failed as badly as it's possible for an airline to fail.
Your the ex Aloha guy who was complaining about HA's hiring process (sorry you didn't get hired) then you were saying you hope HA gets bought and all it's pilots (including all your ex co workers from AQ ) get stapled. Nuff said.

 

[Dan Roman]

I think you'd be dead wrong in your assessment. Right or wrong, the larger group always prevails. The arbitrators threw the career expectations of CAL pilots right out the window. UAL prevailed. Same for Airtran vs SWA. It is what it is.

Your best bet now would be to have your MEC draw up a successorship agreement with management that states the exact terms and conditions HAL pilots are to receive were a merger to occur. Have it be as iron-clad as debt liability assumed in any merger transaction. Otherwise, were a merger to play out, you will get clobbered by the larger group. Trust me. It just is what it is.

The judge (or judges in the case of a arb panel) can, and will, do whatever they want. What you see as reasonable will not be what they are seeing, and vice versa.

You raise some good points, but the reality is that if anyone bought us it would probably be someone with a large fleet of widebodies already. My point about the career expectations was if the SWA pipe dream happened. It really is unrealistic for a lot of reasons that have been hashed out before on here.

 

[Double Shot]

I wouldn't call buying Hawaiian a pipe dream. And as far as there are roughly 8000 of us and only 650 ish of you I'll take those those odds....

 

[waveflyer]

You raise some good points, but the reality is that if anyone bought us it would probably be someone with a large fleet of widebodies already. My point about the career expectations was if the SWA pipe dream happened. It really is unrealistic for a lot of reasons that have been hashed out before on here.

You hope that so desperately

HAWAIIAN AIRLINESoperated by Southwest Airlines

 

[Dan Roman]

You hope that so desperately

HAWAIIAN AIRLINESoperated by Southwest Airlines

Actually Wave, it appears it's a much bigger deal for you then me.
Really dude, if "Gary" thought adding a relatively small Airbus hub in HNL as a good way to expand, your career would be in serious jeopardy.

 

[Dan Roman]

I wouldn't call buying Hawaiian a pipe dream. And as far as there are roughly 8000 of us and only 650 ish of you I'll take those those odds....

You don't know much about Hawaiian, Hawaii or the reality of someone from the outside trying to conduct business over here if it causes problems for those of us who are already established here.

 

[Dan Roman]

You hope that so desperately

HAWAIIAN AIRLINESoperated by Southwest Airlines

That said, not sure why you would be promoting a concept that has a separate operation operated by non SWAPA pilots? Or even worse, a venue for SWAPA pilots to try and trickle over into a very hostile environment?

 

[Jim]

You hope that so desperately

HAWAIIAN AIRLINESoperated by Southwest Airlines

Purple isn't our corporate color anymore, it's blue now.

 

[waveflyer]

Purple isn't our corporate color anymore, it's blue now.

Apologies Jim

HAWAIIAN AIRLINESoperated by Southwest

That better?

 

[waveflyer]

That said, not sure why you would be promoting a concept that has a separate operation operated by non SWAPA pilots? Or even worse, a venue for SWAPA pilots to try and trickle over into a very hostile environment?

We wouldn't be a separate group. Our contract doesn't allow that as I'm sure yours doesn't, and it would be a terrible modern precedent.
We'd have our SLI, but that doesn't mean that SWA couldn't see the value in keeping the hawaiian brand and negotiate something with the unions to honor the history as well as we could.

I'd imagine we'd have to negotiate some sort of a system flush rebid so that it doesn't become this little hostile island out there-
but what are you saying anyway?
You gonna beat me up if I show up after being awarded an HNL 330 slot my seniority can hold??
Is that how it works there brother?

 

[Dan Roman]

We wouldn't be a separate group. Our contract doesn't allow that as I'm sure yours doesn't, and it would be a terrible modern precedent.
We'd have our SLI, but that doesn't mean that SWA couldn't see the value in keeping the hawaiian brand and negotiate something with the unions to honor the history as well as we could.

I'd imagine we'd have to negotiate some sort of a system flush rebid so that it doesn't become this little hostile island out there-
but what are you saying anyway?
You gonna beat me up if I show up after being awarded an HNL 330 slot my seniority can hold??
Is that how it works there brother?

Wave, you are turning this around as if I made the threat. You are the one who suggested a scenario that would degrade the careers of the HA pilots (SWA merger) While what we bring to the table is a plus, what you bring is not. None of us have any interest in what you do. No offense, nothing wrong with it and more power to you if you enjoy it, but it's not any gain for us.
I'm not going all General Lee on you, I have nothing bad to say about flying to LUB but what you do doesn't do anything to enhance what we do. Live and let live, but if you want to try and steal what others have and you didn't earn it, you are going to get a very nasty fight.

 

[Jim]

Apologies Jim

HAWAIIAN AIRLINESoperated by Southwest

That better?

Nope. More like this....

 

[808pilot]

to answer the earlier questions about the hiring process... its all changing... whole new app process... they are completely flushing the old way... haven't heard yet how they are gonna interview people yet... and that won't rea;;y happen until 2016... its gonna be hiring for attrition/retires... then in 2016 supposedly the big hiring starts up again...

all assuming we don't get bought by the mighty southwest! no one... and i mean this truthfully wants to do the flying that southwest does... no offense... to me and only me i see it as really well paid regional flying... i'll take my int'l 3 days and 2 day west coasts any day...

 

[waveflyer]

Wave, you are turning this around as if I made the threat. You are the one who suggested a scenario that would degrade the careers of the HA pilots (SWA merger) While what we bring to the table is a plus, what you bring is not. None of us have any interest in what you do. No offense, nothing wrong with it and more power to you if you enjoy it, but it's not any gain for us.
I'm not going all General Lee on you, I have nothing bad to say about flying to LUB but what you do doesn't do anything to enhance what we do. Live and let live, but if you want to try and steal what others have and you didn't earn it, you are going to get a very nasty fight.

First that was seriously GL- but you've been a hater for some time- ain't no big thing. There's lots of that around

But "None" of you Dan?

Really? None?

Not one of your pilots would like to have the option of 10 domestic bases and more money? I mean c'mon- seat for seat we all make more than your 330 pilots flying a 737.
"None" of you have lived through liquidation at Aloha or HALs BK in 2003 and would appreciate the job security of being owned by a company with $6 billion in the bank and billions more in owned aircraft (not leases)

You're a takeover target dude.
A good value from a corporate perspective for what you are
Swapa does not allow any code share, so maybe HQ decides to expand our brand a little bit international and pick up some good international experience to lead us to the next stage.
None of us here wants that either mind you- but we learned the hard way that GK does what he wants and he feels is right- and is not all that concerned with how pilots "feel"

If GK decides to spend SWA money buying you instead of more SWA airplanes then no Swapa pilot will be "stealing" anything. You need to get that one brother.
That's a real dumb comment.
You'll have seniority in the combined airline and as much as I'm just stoking sh/t up- don't pretend when you go to work every day that you might not be scooped by any of 5 or 6 different mainline based airlines.
I don't want that-
But you already said that Hawaiian doesn't really fit into other people's networks-
Maybe SWA as the fledgling international carrier, would be the one to do it.

Who knows?

But if that 10% chance comes to fruition, get the idea that we'd be stealing something unearned out of your head- bc that argument flows both ways

 

[Dan Roman]

Wave I seriously doubt you could find a single HA pilot that would want to be be bought by SWA. If there is one, that's his problem, he should have applied there rather than come here. Most of the pilots here are at HA because our operation fits what they want to do. Just like most of the pilots at SWA are there because that's where they want to be (until the AirTran mergers that is!)
But the fact that I state the obvious, that a merger is highly unlikely and certainly not in our best interest somehow makes me a SWA hater is a little narcissistic on your part. Just because I don't want to do what you do doesn't make me a hater.

 

[Jim]

There you go again Wave.....it's all about the dollar. I've got news for you, money is only a small piece of the puzzle. Air Tran guys have been telling you this for the past few years yet you still don't seem to get it.

And I've got another news flash for you too. I have a few friends, both FOs and 1 Captain flying for SWA. We've compared contracts, schedules and W-2s. If you look at our overall compensation to include benefits and retirement (which SWA's is way behind the other majors/legacies) we're at least equal if not better than SWA. True our interisland might not be quite as high but it's a smaller plane than SWA's 737s. Further, our next contract will increase our pay more keeping it competitive with the other legacy airlines (as has our last two contracts). Your management has repeatedly made the point that you are narrowbodies and should expect narrowbody pay. You days of 737s paying the same as widebodies are coming to an end.

You need to get over it. While SWA is definitely a good place to work it is NOT the only good place to work. Nor is it the dream job or should it be put on a pedestal for all to admire. I don't want to work for SWA and I bet the vast majority of Hawaiian pilots don't want to either. I'm sure there are a handful so I won't say "none", but as a group we'd go kicking and screaming if we were dragged into SWA.

I also am not afraid of what an arbitrator would do combining our lists. We have learned from the Air Tran debacle and our contract and career expectations are as good as (if not better in many areas) SWA's. An arbitrator would see that and rule accordingly.

You really need to drop the pompous "we're better than everyone and you should wish you were us" attitude because you're not and we don't.

 

[waveflyer]

Wave I seriously doubt you could find a single HA pilot that would want to be be bought by SWA. If there is one, that's his problem, he should have applied there rather than come here. Most of the pilots here are at HA because our operation fits what they want to do. Just like most of the pilots at SWA are there because that's where they want to be (until the AirTran mergers that is!)
But the fact that I state the obvious, that a merger is highly unlikely and certainly not in our best interest somehow makes me a SWA hater is a little narcissistic on your part. Just because I don't want to do what you do doesn't make me a hater.

No I just think it's a little naive to think that out of 650 +/- pilots you have, not one of them would want it to happen, just for logistics- none of your guys wouldn't mind living mainland again- I know way too many Hawaiians to believe that. Nobody's wife is from Denver and would like to get back to the mountains? Nobody has a sick mom in Virginia where a BWI base would be a godsend-...unrealistic. A majority, you're probably right- but if you think everyone- then you guys have a guarded hawaiian culture that doesn't allow the truth. Maybe people just agree with you.
That's not the part that made you a hater- it's the "stealing" line and the Lubbock regional line.
You do know that SWA is now less the 5 leg day and much more the 1-3 leg days? Short haul market is disappearing and we have, for quite a while, been doing much longer leg segments.
But of course in troll GL fashion, you guys imagine the Texas triangle or the California shuttle- we still do that, but is far less of our system than it's history. That's the hater part. Not acknowledging our transcon reality is like me not acknowledging your Growing Asian presence. Get it?
Believe me, I agree, pilots here for the most part like what we do and do not want to do that long leg heavy across time zones flying- but there are certainly 10% or so that after the certain SLI drama would love to do that kind of thing- even if for a short time. Just like I guarantee you'd have your 10%

But remember, your operation is just a little chunk compared to the now combined SWA system. Most of us wouldn't be benefitting at all, so the "stealing" thing is out of line

 

[waveflyer]

There you go again Wave.....it's all about the dollar. I've got news for you, money is only a small piece of the puzzle. Air Tran guys have been telling you this for the past few years yet you still don't seem to get it.

And I've got another news flash for you too. I have a few friends, both FOs and 1 Captain flying for SWA. We've compared contracts, schedules and W-2s. If you look at our overall compensation to include benefits and retirement (which SWA's is way behind the other majors/legacies) we're at least equal if not better than SWA. True our interisland might not be quite as high but it's a smaller plane than SWA's 737s. Further, our next contract will increase our pay more keeping it competitive with the other legacy airlines (as has our last two contracts). Your management has repeatedly made the point that you are narrowbodies and should expect narrowbody pay. You days of 737s paying the same as widebodies are coming to an end.

You need to get over it. While SWA is definitely a good place to work it is NOT the only good place to work. Nor is it the dream job or should it be put on a pedestal for all to admire. I don't want to work for SWA and I bet the vast majority of Hawaiian pilots don't want to either. I'm sure there are a handful so I won't say "none", but as a group we'd go kicking and screaming if we were dragged into SWA.

I also am not afraid of what an arbitrator would do combining our lists. We have learned from the Air Tran debacle and our contract and career expectations are as good as (if not better in many areas) SWA's. An arbitrator would see that and rule accordingly.

You really need to drop the pompous "we're better than everyone and you should wish you were us" attitude because you're not and we don't.

Can I say I agree, and just wish you to apply the same logic of those last few paragraphs to yourself as well?

Just like it's not pompous for you to like working where you work and hope things don't change- the lesson I learned from air tran is that sometimes things change and we don't control it.

As far as contracts- a HUGE +1 on retirement! But since you invoked your next contract and assumed more pay is right around the corner, I'll invoke our next and assume our retirement will go way up- bc it does need to. Fair is fair right? What's good for you to argue is good for me?

I give SWA a 10% chance of buying hawaiian at some time. I predict there's a 50%+ chance of Hawaiian being bought by someone in the next 5-10 years.
There's huge consolidation going on, and those bigger projects will have to be fully done and settled before anything else goes down- but you aren't in any better a position than air tran.

If you work for a takeover target, you ought to be prepared for getting bought. That's the responsibility you have in terms of choosing a niche carrier like that.

I do hope I'm wrong though and really just yanking your chains

 

[Jim]

Can I say I agree, and just wish you to apply the same logic of those last few paragraphs to yourself as well?

Just like it's not pompous for you to like working where you work and hope things don't change- the lesson I learned from air tran is that sometimes things change and we don't control it.

The difference is I don't continually tell everyone that they should want to work for Hawaiian, that they would be better off working for Hawaiian, or that they'd be lucky to work for Hawaiian. I understand that every airline has it's advantages and disadvantages and that each individual knows what is important to him in his career choice. You act like working at SWA should be everyone's dream.

As far as contracts- a HUGE +1 on retirement! But since you invoked your next contract and assumed more pay is right around the corner, I'll invoke our next and assume our retirement will go way up- bc it does need to. Fair is fair right? What's good for you to argue is good for me?

We will have comparable widebody rates in our next contract just like we have in our last two. Your management has gone on record reminding you that you are flying narrowbodies and that you should expect narrowbody rates. Top narrowbody rates but narrowbody rates, not widebody rates.

I give SWA a 10% chance of buying hawaiian at some time. I predict there's a 50%+ chance of Hawaiian being bought by someone in the next 5-10 years.
There's huge consolidation going on, and those bigger projects will have to be fully done and settled before anything else goes down- but you aren't in any better a position than air tran.

We are in a better position than Air Tran because we have learned from their mistakes. If SWA bought us (and I put that at about 0% chance), we will not fall to your management's threats and bias. We have acquisition contract protections for our flying. It will go to arbitration and our contract/career expectations/earnings are comparable to SWAs or any other carrier that would acquire us. It is far more likely that Hawaiian would merge with Delta or Alaska than SWA. That provides even more protection because they are also ALPA carriers.

If you work for a takeover target, you ought to be prepared for getting bought. That's the responsibility you have in terms of choosing a niche carrier like that.

I don't believe we are a takeover target and neither do most airline managers as we do well because we are a niche carrier in our niche market. Take away the niche by merging us and you might as well just expand without us.

I do hope I'm wrong though and really just yanking your chains

You are.

 

[HAL]

I honestly don't know the SWA numbers, Wave, but maybe you can dig them up somewhere. At HA over the past five years we've hired 300+ pilots. How many of those have voluntarily left to go to another major (or regional) airline? One. The opportunities are certainly there, but only one has left. That tells me that Dan Roman is pretty darn close to being correct as to how many people want to work for a different airline. How many SWA people have jumped ship in the past five years?

HAL

 

[texman]

We at SWA did give up inter island flying???? Right??? New res system coming in place??? Makes you think.

 

[Dan Roman]

That's not the part that made you a hater- it's the "stealing" line and the Lubbock regional line.

Wave, just for the record, the LBB comment was totally tongue in cheek, hence the little Personally I think it's pretty ridiculous to think that is some kind of an insult to say you fly into some Podunk town. So what, you fly into BOS LAX ATL etc too. I don't get how that's an insult because you don't farm out your flying to an RJ operator to there. But to me that's totally not an insult by were you fly. The stealing flying comment is just an observation that when pilots start talking "buying Hawaiian" they naively think that means more opportunity for them, which means they think they would be coming over here to do our flying. Fortunately that would be considered a windfall, so the courts are in fact, in our favor.
So there you go, not a " hater" by any means, but I would sure hate merging with you. We are getting 18-23 A321 NEO's starting in 2017. and 6 either A350's or now the are talking to Boeing about 787's. All our current F/O's our looking at an upgrade in,about 2-5 years as we open a bunch of smaller west coast to Hawaii routes and supplement our wide body routes. Screwing that up for them and creating an inferior airline to what we have now would be a bummer.

 

[Dan Roman]

We at SWA did give up inter island flying???? Right??? New res system coming in place??? Makes you think.

Tex, a little perspective, SWA approached HA about a code share after ATA went T U. It was, in fact, looked at. Your company wanted to code share all your flying to Hawaii. It was deemed not a good match up. But after that SWAPA did improve your code share language. I'm assuming because of the Volaris / West Jet threat. Hawaii was added in too but everyone who flies here allows inter island code sharing. I believe your language actually specified turbo prop only.
Since then, HA has announced the NEO's and established the fact that the West Coast to Hawaii market would be a lot harder for you to break into. You would be competing with AK's 737 flying as well as HA expanding their dominance with the A321's flying into markets that SWA would have been trying.

 

[texman]

Tex, a little perspective, SWA approached HA about a code share after ATA went T U. It was, in fact, looked at. Your company wanted to code share all your flying to Hawaii. It was deemed not a good match up. But after that SWAPA did improve your code share language. I'm assuming because of the Volaris / West Jet threat. Hawaii was added in too but everyone who flies here allows inter island code sharing. I believe your language actually specified turbo prop only.
Since then, HA has announced the NEO's and established the fact that the West Coast to Hawaii market would be a lot harder for you to break into. You would be competing with AK's 737 flying as well as HA expanding their dominance with the A321's flying into markets that SWA would have been trying.

Yea your right. I know the 737 MAX numbers are better than the neo. But its like top secret stuff around SWA these days. No clue when or if we will ever do HA.

 

[redflyer65]

I think we will do Hawaii, but the time line is an unknown. I don't think a merger with Hawaiian would be bad way to go either. I think it could work out well for both pilot groups.

 

[Junkflyer]

In a merger it usually seems that most in labor lose and management wins.

 

[waveflyer]

I think we will do Hawaii, but the time line is an unknown. I don't think a merger with Hawaiian would be bad way to go either. I think it could work out well for both pilot groups.

How senior are you red?

If rather GK just buy airplanes and hire at the bottom than another overly dramatic SLI.

 

[General Lee]

There you go again Wave.....it's all about the dollar. I've got news for you, money is only a small piece of the puzzle. Air Tran guys have been telling you this for the past few years yet you still don't seem to get it.

And I've got another news flash for you too. I have a few friends, both FOs and 1 Captain flying for SWA. We've compared contracts, schedules and W-2s. If you look at our overall compensation to include benefits and retirement (which SWA's is way behind the other majors/legacies) we're at least equal if not better than SWA. True our interisland might not be quite as high but it's a smaller plane than SWA's 737s. Further, our next contract will increase our pay more keeping it competitive with the other legacy airlines (as has our last two contracts). Your management has repeatedly made the point that you are narrowbodies and should expect narrowbody pay. You days of 737s paying the same as widebodies are coming to an end.

You need to get over it. While SWA is definitely a good place to work it is NOT the only good place to work. Nor is it the dream job or should it be put on a pedestal for all to admire. I don't want to work for SWA and I bet the vast majority of Hawaiian pilots don't want to either. I'm sure there are a handful so I won't say "none", but as a group we'd go kicking and screaming if we were dragged into SWA.

I also am not afraid of what an arbitrator would do combining our lists. We have learned from the Air Tran debacle and our contract and career expectations are as good as (if not better in many areas) SWA's. An arbitrator would see that and rule accordingly.

You really need to drop the pompous "we're better than everyone and you should wish you were us" attitude because you're not and we don't.

Jim,

I agree with everything you say, but, if you guys were to merge somehow, would SWAPA allow arbitration? They may agree to it in the beginning, but Herb might come out of retirement and try to scare the heck out of you guys. Sound familiar? I wonder if that could ever happen in real life? Hmmmmm. I hope you guys NEVER have to do that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

How senior are you red?

If rather GK just buy airplanes and hire at the bottom than another overly dramatic SLI.

Wave, face it, you guys are scared of arbitration. That's the real issue. You don't want it to be fair. You guys believe every other pilot should start over as an FO, and that isn't how it works in the "real world" of arbitration. Your people scared one group into not doing it, but that won't happen again.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[texman]

Gen, the next deal would definitely go to arbitration.