HAL hiring

[Jim]

There you go again Wave.....it's all about the dollar. I've got news for you, money is only a small piece of the puzzle. Air Tran guys have been telling you this for the past few years yet you still don't seem to get it.

And I've got another news flash for you too. I have a few friends, both FOs and 1 Captain flying for SWA. We've compared contracts, schedules and W-2s. If you look at our overall compensation to include benefits and retirement (which SWA's is way behind the other majors/legacies) we're at least equal if not better than SWA. True our interisland might not be quite as high but it's a smaller plane than SWA's 737s. Further, our next contract will increase our pay more keeping it competitive with the other legacy airlines (as has our last two contracts). Your management has repeatedly made the point that you are narrowbodies and should expect narrowbody pay. You days of 737s paying the same as widebodies are coming to an end.

You need to get over it. While SWA is definitely a good place to work it is NOT the only good place to work. Nor is it the dream job or should it be put on a pedestal for all to admire. I don't want to work for SWA and I bet the vast majority of Hawaiian pilots don't want to either. I'm sure there are a handful so I won't say "none", but as a group we'd go kicking and screaming if we were dragged into SWA.

I also am not afraid of what an arbitrator would do combining our lists. We have learned from the Air Tran debacle and our contract and career expectations are as good as (if not better in many areas) SWA's. An arbitrator would see that and rule accordingly.

You really need to drop the pompous "we're better than everyone and you should wish you were us" attitude because you're not and we don't.

 

[waveflyer]

Wave I seriously doubt you could find a single HA pilot that would want to be be bought by SWA. If there is one, that's his problem, he should have applied there rather than come here. Most of the pilots here are at HA because our operation fits what they want to do. Just like most of the pilots at SWA are there because that's where they want to be (until the AirTran mergers that is!)
But the fact that I state the obvious, that a merger is highly unlikely and certainly not in our best interest somehow makes me a SWA hater is a little narcissistic on your part. Just because I don't want to do what you do doesn't make me a hater.

No I just think it's a little naive to think that out of 650 +/- pilots you have, not one of them would want it to happen, just for logistics- none of your guys wouldn't mind living mainland again- I know way too many Hawaiians to believe that. Nobody's wife is from Denver and would like to get back to the mountains? Nobody has a sick mom in Virginia where a BWI base would be a godsend-...unrealistic. A majority, you're probably right- but if you think everyone- then you guys have a guarded hawaiian culture that doesn't allow the truth. Maybe people just agree with you.
That's not the part that made you a hater- it's the "stealing" line and the Lubbock regional line.
You do know that SWA is now less the 5 leg day and much more the 1-3 leg days? Short haul market is disappearing and we have, for quite a while, been doing much longer leg segments.
But of course in troll GL fashion, you guys imagine the Texas triangle or the California shuttle- we still do that, but is far less of our system than it's history. That's the hater part. Not acknowledging our transcon reality is like me not acknowledging your Growing Asian presence. Get it?
Believe me, I agree, pilots here for the most part like what we do and do not want to do that long leg heavy across time zones flying- but there are certainly 10% or so that after the certain SLI drama would love to do that kind of thing- even if for a short time. Just like I guarantee you'd have your 10%

But remember, your operation is just a little chunk compared to the now combined SWA system. Most of us wouldn't be benefitting at all, so the "stealing" thing is out of line

 

[waveflyer]

There you go again Wave.....it's all about the dollar. I've got news for you, money is only a small piece of the puzzle. Air Tran guys have been telling you this for the past few years yet you still don't seem to get it.

And I've got another news flash for you too. I have a few friends, both FOs and 1 Captain flying for SWA. We've compared contracts, schedules and W-2s. If you look at our overall compensation to include benefits and retirement (which SWA's is way behind the other majors/legacies) we're at least equal if not better than SWA. True our interisland might not be quite as high but it's a smaller plane than SWA's 737s. Further, our next contract will increase our pay more keeping it competitive with the other legacy airlines (as has our last two contracts). Your management has repeatedly made the point that you are narrowbodies and should expect narrowbody pay. You days of 737s paying the same as widebodies are coming to an end.

You need to get over it. While SWA is definitely a good place to work it is NOT the only good place to work. Nor is it the dream job or should it be put on a pedestal for all to admire. I don't want to work for SWA and I bet the vast majority of Hawaiian pilots don't want to either. I'm sure there are a handful so I won't say "none", but as a group we'd go kicking and screaming if we were dragged into SWA.

I also am not afraid of what an arbitrator would do combining our lists. We have learned from the Air Tran debacle and our contract and career expectations are as good as (if not better in many areas) SWA's. An arbitrator would see that and rule accordingly.

You really need to drop the pompous "we're better than everyone and you should wish you were us" attitude because you're not and we don't.

Can I say I agree, and just wish you to apply the same logic of those last few paragraphs to yourself as well?

Just like it's not pompous for you to like working where you work and hope things don't change- the lesson I learned from air tran is that sometimes things change and we don't control it.

As far as contracts- a HUGE +1 on retirement! But since you invoked your next contract and assumed more pay is right around the corner, I'll invoke our next and assume our retirement will go way up- bc it does need to. Fair is fair right? What's good for you to argue is good for me?

I give SWA a 10% chance of buying hawaiian at some time. I predict there's a 50%+ chance of Hawaiian being bought by someone in the next 5-10 years.
There's huge consolidation going on, and those bigger projects will have to be fully done and settled before anything else goes down- but you aren't in any better a position than air tran.

If you work for a takeover target, you ought to be prepared for getting bought. That's the responsibility you have in terms of choosing a niche carrier like that.

I do hope I'm wrong though and really just yanking your chains

 

[Jim]

Can I say I agree, and just wish you to apply the same logic of those last few paragraphs to yourself as well?

Just like it's not pompous for you to like working where you work and hope things don't change- the lesson I learned from air tran is that sometimes things change and we don't control it.

The difference is I don't continually tell everyone that they should want to work for Hawaiian, that they would be better off working for Hawaiian, or that they'd be lucky to work for Hawaiian. I understand that every airline has it's advantages and disadvantages and that each individual knows what is important to him in his career choice. You act like working at SWA should be everyone's dream.

As far as contracts- a HUGE +1 on retirement! But since you invoked your next contract and assumed more pay is right around the corner, I'll invoke our next and assume our retirement will go way up- bc it does need to. Fair is fair right? What's good for you to argue is good for me?

We will have comparable widebody rates in our next contract just like we have in our last two. Your management has gone on record reminding you that you are flying narrowbodies and that you should expect narrowbody rates. Top narrowbody rates but narrowbody rates, not widebody rates.

I give SWA a 10% chance of buying hawaiian at some time. I predict there's a 50%+ chance of Hawaiian being bought by someone in the next 5-10 years.
There's huge consolidation going on, and those bigger projects will have to be fully done and settled before anything else goes down- but you aren't in any better a position than air tran.

We are in a better position than Air Tran because we have learned from their mistakes. If SWA bought us (and I put that at about 0% chance), we will not fall to your management's threats and bias. We have acquisition contract protections for our flying. It will go to arbitration and our contract/career expectations/earnings are comparable to SWAs or any other carrier that would acquire us. It is far more likely that Hawaiian would merge with Delta or Alaska than SWA. That provides even more protection because they are also ALPA carriers.

If you work for a takeover target, you ought to be prepared for getting bought. That's the responsibility you have in terms of choosing a niche carrier like that.

I don't believe we are a takeover target and neither do most airline managers as we do well because we are a niche carrier in our niche market. Take away the niche by merging us and you might as well just expand without us.

I do hope I'm wrong though and really just yanking your chains

You are.

 

[HAL]

I honestly don't know the SWA numbers, Wave, but maybe you can dig them up somewhere. At HA over the past five years we've hired 300+ pilots. How many of those have voluntarily left to go to another major (or regional) airline? One. The opportunities are certainly there, but only one has left. That tells me that Dan Roman is pretty darn close to being correct as to how many people want to work for a different airline. How many SWA people have jumped ship in the past five years?

HAL

 

[texman]

We at SWA did give up inter island flying???? Right??? New res system coming in place??? Makes you think.

 

[Dan Roman]

That's not the part that made you a hater- it's the "stealing" line and the Lubbock regional line.

Wave, just for the record, the LBB comment was totally tongue in cheek, hence the little Personally I think it's pretty ridiculous to think that is some kind of an insult to say you fly into some Podunk town. So what, you fly into BOS LAX ATL etc too. I don't get how that's an insult because you don't farm out your flying to an RJ operator to there. But to me that's totally not an insult by were you fly. The stealing flying comment is just an observation that when pilots start talking "buying Hawaiian" they naively think that means more opportunity for them, which means they think they would be coming over here to do our flying. Fortunately that would be considered a windfall, so the courts are in fact, in our favor.
So there you go, not a " hater" by any means, but I would sure hate merging with you. We are getting 18-23 A321 NEO's starting in 2017. and 6 either A350's or now the are talking to Boeing about 787's. All our current F/O's our looking at an upgrade in,about 2-5 years as we open a bunch of smaller west coast to Hawaii routes and supplement our wide body routes. Screwing that up for them and creating an inferior airline to what we have now would be a bummer.

 

[Dan Roman]

We at SWA did give up inter island flying???? Right??? New res system coming in place??? Makes you think.

Tex, a little perspective, SWA approached HA about a code share after ATA went T U. It was, in fact, looked at. Your company wanted to code share all your flying to Hawaii. It was deemed not a good match up. But after that SWAPA did improve your code share language. I'm assuming because of the Volaris / West Jet threat. Hawaii was added in too but everyone who flies here allows inter island code sharing. I believe your language actually specified turbo prop only.
Since then, HA has announced the NEO's and established the fact that the West Coast to Hawaii market would be a lot harder for you to break into. You would be competing with AK's 737 flying as well as HA expanding their dominance with the A321's flying into markets that SWA would have been trying.

 

[texman]

Tex, a little perspective, SWA approached HA about a code share after ATA went T U. It was, in fact, looked at. Your company wanted to code share all your flying to Hawaii. It was deemed not a good match up. But after that SWAPA did improve your code share language. I'm assuming because of the Volaris / West Jet threat. Hawaii was added in too but everyone who flies here allows inter island code sharing. I believe your language actually specified turbo prop only.
Since then, HA has announced the NEO's and established the fact that the West Coast to Hawaii market would be a lot harder for you to break into. You would be competing with AK's 737 flying as well as HA expanding their dominance with the A321's flying into markets that SWA would have been trying.

Yea your right. I know the 737 MAX numbers are better than the neo. But its like top secret stuff around SWA these days. No clue when or if we will ever do HA.

 

[redflyer65]

I think we will do Hawaii, but the time line is an unknown. I don't think a merger with Hawaiian would be bad way to go either. I think it could work out well for both pilot groups.

 

[Junkflyer]

In a merger it usually seems that most in labor lose and management wins.

 

[waveflyer]

I think we will do Hawaii, but the time line is an unknown. I don't think a merger with Hawaiian would be bad way to go either. I think it could work out well for both pilot groups.

How senior are you red?

If rather GK just buy airplanes and hire at the bottom than another overly dramatic SLI.

 

[General Lee]

There you go again Wave.....it's all about the dollar. I've got news for you, money is only a small piece of the puzzle. Air Tran guys have been telling you this for the past few years yet you still don't seem to get it.

And I've got another news flash for you too. I have a few friends, both FOs and 1 Captain flying for SWA. We've compared contracts, schedules and W-2s. If you look at our overall compensation to include benefits and retirement (which SWA's is way behind the other majors/legacies) we're at least equal if not better than SWA. True our interisland might not be quite as high but it's a smaller plane than SWA's 737s. Further, our next contract will increase our pay more keeping it competitive with the other legacy airlines (as has our last two contracts). Your management has repeatedly made the point that you are narrowbodies and should expect narrowbody pay. You days of 737s paying the same as widebodies are coming to an end.

You need to get over it. While SWA is definitely a good place to work it is NOT the only good place to work. Nor is it the dream job or should it be put on a pedestal for all to admire. I don't want to work for SWA and I bet the vast majority of Hawaiian pilots don't want to either. I'm sure there are a handful so I won't say "none", but as a group we'd go kicking and screaming if we were dragged into SWA.

I also am not afraid of what an arbitrator would do combining our lists. We have learned from the Air Tran debacle and our contract and career expectations are as good as (if not better in many areas) SWA's. An arbitrator would see that and rule accordingly.

You really need to drop the pompous "we're better than everyone and you should wish you were us" attitude because you're not and we don't.

Jim,

I agree with everything you say, but, if you guys were to merge somehow, would SWAPA allow arbitration? They may agree to it in the beginning, but Herb might come out of retirement and try to scare the heck out of you guys. Sound familiar? I wonder if that could ever happen in real life? Hmmmmm. I hope you guys NEVER have to do that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

How senior are you red?

If rather GK just buy airplanes and hire at the bottom than another overly dramatic SLI.

Wave, face it, you guys are scared of arbitration. That's the real issue. You don't want it to be fair. You guys believe every other pilot should start over as an FO, and that isn't how it works in the "real world" of arbitration. Your people scared one group into not doing it, but that won't happen again.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[texman]

Gen, the next deal would definitely go to arbitration.