HAL hiring

[Junkflyer]

The last vacancy bid had a reduction in 717 slots, Ohana will be flying flights currently flown by the 717. Not exactly a warm fuzzy for the interisland pilots.
Any reduction is bad for the group as a whole.

 

[Dan Roman]

The last vacancy bid had a reduction in 717 slots, Ohana will be flying flights currently flown by the 717. Not exactly a warm fuzzy for the interisland pilots.
Any reduction is bad for the group as a whole.

Junk, your concerns are valid, we do need to be vigilant. But what Jim said is well put. Inter Island will always be a huge market and will always require 100 plus seat jets. Over the years I've heard pilots opine all manner of threats that simply didn't happen. During our concessionary years we gave them turbo prop code share on the 1st and last HNL/OGG. A select few said we just gave away inter island (some of the same crew who are currently trying to reshape the MEC into their own perspective as we speak!). When we went from smaller to larger DC-9's we had some swearing we lost jobs. Etc etc, the point is Inter Island is a large market, and given Hawaiian's position in the market, we will always be the one flying it( there is no longer room, due to gate restrictions, for a second inter island jet carrier, ala AQ) So i maintain there will always be the inter island career option we have now. But we can't try to artificially control it. I think we have found a win win combination with what we have now.

 

[Dan Roman]

BTW... I'll go even further that the turboprop flying is better done separately rather than by pilots on our seniority list. Wait wait, give me second to defend that controversial position!.
If we had a small turboprop operation, the pilots would have to be frozen in the seats or no one would be able to train and get on the line before they could hold 717/ 767/ AirBus once hiring starts. The problems that would cause on the negotiating table would have a ripple effect throughout the whole seniority list. We don't want 'b scale " pilots flying inter island competing with the 717 pay scales. I saw how this works when we had DHC7 inter island. It put concessionary pressure on the DC9's. It sorta worked back then because HA was in concessionary mode. It would not work now as we are quite successful and need to be focused on keeping 717 and widebody flying at legacy industry pay scales.

 

[Dan Roman]

Finally, I sensed a hint of "Inter-Island vs. Widebody" on here. That's simply a very false perspective . There are always a few who like to stir that us against them pot, then, because good real time communication isn't possible with every rumor that gets put out there, it festers and the pilots so inclined run with a false premise. I've seen it over and over again. You should have seen the civil war we had over west coast domicles vs HNL pilots. It can get real ugly, real dishonest and real debilitating to our union solidarity.
Trust me, most of the wide body folks are also ex inter island. There is no bias against them. I couldn't feel stronger how important Inter Island is. I think all agree with me that we want industry standard for all.

 

[waveflyer]

Junk, your concerns are valid, we do need to be vigilant. But what Jim said is well put. Inter Island will always be a huge market and will always require 100 plus seat jets. Over the years I've heard pilots opine all manner of threats that simply didn't happen. During our concessionary years we gave them turbo prop code share on the 1st and last HNL/OGG. A select few said we just gave away inter island (some of the same crew who are currently trying to reshape the MEC into their own perspective as we speak!). When we went from smaller to larger DC-9's we had some swearing we lost jobs. Etc etc, the point is Inter Island is a large market, and given Hawaiian's position in the market, we will always be the one flying it( there is no longer room, due to gate restrictions, for a second inter island jet carrier, ala AQ) So i maintain there will always be the inter island career option we have now. But we can't try to artificially control it. I think we have found a win win combination with what we have now.

Thats a LOT of "ALWAYS" for any pilot so experienced

 

[Dan Roman]

Thats a LOT of "ALWAYS" for any pilot so experienced

Touche' ! Never say always! You are right, anything can happen to any of us and we should all be be aware of that. Let's just say the chances of anyone but HA doing the inter island jet flying are about the same as someone kicking SWA out of LUV. Not very likely.

 

[waveflyer]

HAWAIIAN INTER ISLANDoperated by Southwest



Since you said anything could happen

 

[igneousy2]

Jim, just a couple of questions,

Dunkerly (or at least some HA officer) has told investors on previous investor conference calls that HA doesn't need to start worrying about finding a 717 replacement until 2018ish. While i'd agree that means it's not imminent, 2018 is far less than 15 years away. Why the discrepancy?

You say there is nothing to worry about because Scope will protect you but if you do the math on your own numbers, it seems to me that what you are really saying is that, you don't need to worry unless you are relying on the 6,000 unprotected hours for your job. Am I missing something. If HA lost 6,000 hours a year, wouldn't that mean that somewhere around 140 pilots in a group of 600 would either be downgraded or furloughed, or in the best case if the slack was able to be taken up on the international side, not upgraded or not hired?

How is it that junior HA pilots need not worry because of their "solid scope", when at every other major US airline, scope clauses have been eroded to give benefits to the senior at the detriment of the junior? Are Hawaiian pilots unified enough to protect their scope clause?

 

[Jim]

When they presented the fleet plans for the 321NEO LOA road show, a 717 replacement was not listed and we were told 717s were going to be flying through the end of the 2020s with HAL beginning to investigate replacements after 2025 earliest.

6000/hour a year does not equal 140 pilots. We are talking 500 hours/month. At our guarantee fo 75 hour a month you are talking 7 FOs & 7 Captains or 14 pilots. Maybe a couple of less to account for days of vacation and training events.

29,000 hours/year was the number of hours we were flying when we agreed to allow HA to own a subsidiary. Those are hours between islands and do not count any mainland-outer island flying by the 321NEOs. Mainland - outer island is going to happen and it will erode the current 35,000 hours we are flying interisland. Before this agreement, we had no minimum interisland hours so this agreement actually protected what was previously not protected.

As I said, it also provided a minimum HA jet flown interisland hour number where there was none before. Before as long as they did not go between the four listed city pairs, and flew turbo props less than 69 seats & 69,000 lbs. HA could have code shared significant interisland flying out. Now we have a protected 29,000 hours.

It was not the perfect deal for HA pilots, but it tightened up our scope and provided protections to interisland that were not there before.

 

[nethan]

It was not the perfect deal for HA pilots, but it tightened up our scope and provided protections to interisland that were not there before.

Jim, I'm a new guy. Wasn't here for the last time around and am playing to catch up (when I can get guys to talk politics about anything other than then current MEC issues). Thanks for the history lesson about what came from where.

I agree that limiting code share to a WO only and adding a block hour requirement was a win last time. My concern is more about what is going to happen THIS time. The demographic of the airline is rather different than it was 5 years ago. Many of us new guys spent years flying RJs at the expense of scope clauses that the legacies gave up and are worried about the downward trend happening here too. I agree that the current protections, although far from adequate are enough to protect MOST of the inter island flying that is done today. However, I am worried that the company is going to come after what we have (mostly the limit on HNL to the big 4). If they sweeten the pot enough with benefits for the Airbus (maybe a min day so suddenly those 3 day west coast trips actually pay an ok amount) there are enough votes there to cave on scope. I worry that a lot of the senior guys here have absolutely no idea what scope means and have never really even read Section 1.

I enjoy day trips for now but will head over to the widebody side as soon as I can hold it without a hit to my quality of life. That said, there are many guys here who look forward to retiring from the 717 (or what ever replaces it), being home every night for the rest of their careers. Having the option to do that is one of the things that makes this place different, and I really would hate to see that jeopardized.

 

[Jim]

I think the majority know the importance of scope and won't give it up easily.

I also think that all you new guys with regional backgrounds will make us a stronger pilot group less willing to give in to management demands. 50% of the pilot group have been hired since the last contract so you guys have as much say as the rest of us.

 

[xjhawk]

HAL is still a dream job for me but would be hard to pull the trigger on given my kids are in MSP. The three years I lived in Hawaii and learned to fly there are still amazing memories for me. I know friends who commute to just as far and make it work and given the value of how great a place HAL would be to work I think it would be a great opportunity and worth the commute. Is there plans for hiring anytime soon? Do they even have crash pads in Hawaii?

 

[HAL]

xj, lots of crash pads here. That's what I do now, and there are always options. We have commuters from all over the U.S. (including MSP), so it can work. Hiring should happen soon, and word is a vacancy bid is around the corner. It will really pick up speed as the NEOs get nearer too, probably starting in mid 2016. There will be hiring before then to accommodate retirements and increased flying also.

HAL

 

[Dan Roman]

Jim, I'm a new guy. Wasn't here for the last time around and am playing to catch up (when I can get guys to talk politics about anything other than then current MEC issues). Thanks for the history lesson about what came from where.

I agree that limiting code share to a WO only and adding a block hour requirement was a win last time. My concern is more about what is going to happen THIS time. The demographic of the airline is rather different than it was 5 years ago. Many of us new guys spent years flying RJs at the expense of scope clauses that the legacies gave up and are worried about the downward trend happening here too. I agree that the current protections, although far from adequate are enough to protect MOST of the inter island flying that is done today. However, I am worried that the company is going to come after what we have (mostly the limit on HNL to the big 4). If they sweeten the pot enough with benefits for the Airbus (maybe a min day so suddenly those 3 day west coast trips actually pay an ok amount) there are enough votes there to cave on scope. I worry that a lot of the senior guys here have absolutely no idea what scope means and have never really even read Section 1.

I enjoy day trips for now but will head over to the widebody side as soon as I can hold it without a hit to my quality of life. That said, there are many guys here who look forward to retiring from the 717 (or what ever replaces it), being home every night for the rest of their careers. Having the option to do that is one of the things that makes this place different, and I really would hate to see that jeopardized.

Nethan, allow me a couple perspectives here. Most important, we have hired a lot. People like you bring fresh perspectives. It's never easy for the so called "new guys" to speak up. Your perspective on the reality of what's gone on in the regional world in the last decade or so is important. Don't be shy, but be diplomatic about it. There is a lot of half truths and "Mocarskisms" floating around. The reality is we need to have our eyes open going into contract 2015. It's the companies job to enhance the bottom line, it's our job to protect ourselves. BOTH are important to our careers.
Now the second perspective....careful what you say about the "senior guys". We are the one's that built the airline you have scored by getting hired at. We went through a lot, it had some very scary and trying moments. For many years we dealt with an airline surviving on a shoestring, with outside forces we couldn't control, with revolving management teams, trips through bankruptcy court, etc etc. It wasn't a cakewalk and it could have turned out much different. When times were at their worst we had some of the lowest paid wide body (L1011) crews and the highest paid turboprop (DHC 7) crews in the industry. Nobody screwed the junior folks. We came out of our "dark years" with one of the best retirement packages in the industry and our last contract was close to the top of the industry.
I guess I'm saying look to the future, but don't forget the past.

 

[nethan]

Now the second perspective....careful what you say about the "senior guys". We are the one's that built the airline you have scored by getting hired at. We went through a lot, it had some very scary and trying moments. For many years we dealt with an airline surviving on a shoestring, with outside forces we couldn't control, with revolving management teams, trips through bankruptcy court, etc etc. It wasn't a cakewalk and it could have turned out much different. When times were at their worst we had some of the lowest paid wide body (L1011) crews and the highest paid turboprop (DHC 7) crews in the industry. Nobody screwed the junior folks. We came out of our "dark years" with one of the best retirement packages in the industry and our last contract was close to the top of the industry.
I guess I'm saying look to the future, but don't forget the past.

That's fine. I very much can appreciate what a lot of you guys went through to get the airline to where it is today. The dedication and willingness to keep working through some really bad times that a lot of guys put in is not lost on me.

That said, my point stands that, from what I have seen (and I'll agree it has been a limited exposure) many, many people here don't seem to understand the concept of scope and just how dangerous it can be. I'm certainly not painting it as a junior vs. senior sort of thing. The only reason I said "the senior guys" is because I'd desperately hope that all of use newer hires that came from an RJ environment where the only reason we had jobs was because of eroded scope, would understand the issue although that probably isn't a safe assumption to make.

 

[Microclimates]

+1.
I have ABSOLUTE respect for the trials and tribulations that the old guard at HAL had to go through: subpar pay scales, bankruptcies, years on furlough and/or flying contract jobs... But that does not necessarily entail that the old guard understands fully the risk of outsourcing flying, even to a subsidiary. They fought a different battle just as difficult and menacing. YOU might, since you are obviously interested in the industry as a whole, but can you say the same about most of the senior wide body pilots?

HAL flying is (no pun intended) insular to a certain extent. 1 hub. Destination carrier. high barriers to entry into the market (widebody only until very recently for transpac on one side--ETOPS regardless, and inter-island dominance on the other). the HAL pilot group has never before really been threatened by this particular issue...

Look at CAL scope vs UAL scope during the big regional boom years. UAL, almost overnight, parked their ENTIRE guppy fleet almost overnight and covered the routes with RJs-- 12oo UAL on the street. CAL never allowed scope relief for jets over 50 pax. I am sure you have friends in both carriers: ask them, in all seriousness, what their perspective is.

All this being said, I am really happy that there is this conversation on the board. As long as we are all talking about it, it is a good thing. the chips will fall where they may. just as long as the new status quo isn't the result of disinterest, indifference or ignorance (in the completely non-offensive sense of the word)

 

[waveflyer]

Glad you guys are having the conversation

It is very important.

Dan- please take that previous post of mine to heart- it isn't with bad intentions that outsourcing gets started-
But it will ultimately threaten your own job

 

[General Lee]

HAL, Dan, and Jim,

Would one of you guys please help XJHawk? He honestly sounds like a good guy and could use a break. Please help him get an interview there if you can.

Thank you.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Dan Roman]

Very good discussion here indeed. Micro, Nethan, as I said YOUR input, coming from the RJ world is very important new blood brought to the table. So don't take anything I say as countering you ( I flew for the original Allegheny Commuter and remember when it was a huge deal for USAir to go from 15 seat turboprops to 30 seat turboprops!)
My take is that the inter island flying is mostly now and always will be heavily traveled and warrant larger than 36 seat turboprops. There are markets that don't justify 717's.... LNY, JHM, MKK ( we did use to fly LNY and MKK with a DC -9-50. Still have fond memories of shooting a VOR app to MKK's 4500' rwy!)
But we can 't justify flying the thin markets with a 717. I maintain we are better served by serving the entire inter island traffic flow. I.E. someone in LNY should be able to seamlessly connect to our entire route system. The turboprop flying we do now feeds mainline, creates jobs more than takes jobs and doesn't cross that line that the mainland carriers did when they allowed 50 % of the domestic travel be outsourced to RJ's. I'm blown away that Brian Bedford and his ilk ordered large jets thinking he can use them, it's ALPA's job to stop that crap. At least DAL seems to be slowing turning the tide.
Anyway, I'm getting pretty long winded here, but I'll just say we need to pay close attention to this issue contract 2015 and I hope you guys stay involved. Despite my comment defending us old guys, you are the future and the future lies with you, there is a lot to be learned from what we went through but it's more important to look forward not back.

 

[Dan Roman]

HAL, Dan, and Jim,

Would one of you guys please help XJHawk? He honestly sounds like a good guy and could use a break. Please help him get an interview there if you can.

Thank you.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Not much hiring now, but.....18 to 24 NEO's and either A350's or, we are talking to Boeing, 787's (6) start coming in 2017. Means hiring starts in earnest in 2016. There will be some earlier hiring, but not much till then. Obviously I think I speak for all that we can't give personal recs without knowing someone but I'm happy to keep him updated.