Gulfstream First Officer Program

[100LL... Again!]

PFT? I say let 'em go ahead and do it...

But they should be prepared to bear the consequences, such as a lot of other pilots thinking that they are marginally skilled wanna-bes.

Sorry, guys!

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

PFT? I say let 'em go ahead and do it...

Is that anything like Marie Antoinette saying, "let them eat cake"?

But they should be prepared to bear the consequences, such as a lot of other pilots thinking that they are marginally skilled wanna-bes.

Or but for P-F-T they wouldn't have been hired.

That was one reason why I refused to consider P-F-T. I wanted it known that I would have been hired on my quals and experience, and that I was worthy of the job.

 

[Publishers]

Bobby

Bobby, upiu know I respect your opinion and ethic, however, it did not really work for you if I read your posts correctly.

While it is great rhetoric to say one would be hired on qualifications and experience, the fact is that there are a ton of people hired everyday because they have a silver bullet or know someone, right place at right time, etc..

One of the reasons that I have never been harsh on Gulfstream is that I do not believe that most people are doing anything they can to get the job. They wish they had the inside track or knew someone or etc.

 

[aviatrix]

Re: Job theft by P-F-T

I agree that no one is owed a job. No one is owed anything. But cutting in line ahead of others by virtue of money is not playing by the rules. Although most of these folks get their 250 hours at Gulfstream and leave, their crew position is still required by the regs. It's still a job. Not only is it wrong to pay for a job, in any business, it is wrong to eliminate others from the same opportunity because they cannot or will not pay for a job. I understand that Gulfstream does not hire FOs off the street and that P-F-T is the only route to an FO "job" there. I also realize that other regionals are non-P-F-T. Just the same, it is still a job.

Exactly! And to expand upon it even more, in today's market of pilot over-abundance, and airline management wanting to slash wages, the scores of F/O wanna-be's (and yes, I do believe that is what GIA Commerical pilots are at that point) who pony up that astronomical amount of cash for some 1900 time operating under a part 121 certificate just lends ammunition to airline management who use it as leverage against their pilot groups!
They are well aware that if their pilot force doesn't accept the recent marginal contract, or worse, accept wage concessions, that there are 1000's of other pilots who would gladly have their jobs!
This industry did not use to be this cut-throat, and things are changing little by little, and not in the favor of the pilots!
PFT is just something that we hope others will avoid simply by their own scruples and will-power! One who engages in PFT programs may not necessarily be a sub-standard pilot, and they may not be an outstanding one either. It just says something about the person who is willing to take that route! And I hope that in the long run it comes back to haunt them later, possibly at their first real airline job interview!
Just my 2 cents!

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream P-F-T v. it's not what you know, it's who you know

Bobby, upiu know I respect your opinion and ethic, however, it did not really work for you if I read your posts correctly.

Thanks, Pub.

It clearly did not work out, though I believe that institutional prejudices impinged upon my chances, as I have written prolifically elsewhere. In any event, as I wrote above, I could not have stood myself for having bought a job. Anyone can buy a job, despite all the fancy platitudes about having to meet "strict" qualifications. Let's be real. The only "qual" needed was a bank account (or Dad's bank account) of sufficient size. During my era of the early '90s, P-F-T soon became about the only way to gain access to commuter flying.

I would also mention that I did have interviews at non P-F-T regionals. So, either I was brought in to meet a quota, which I suspect to be the case, and/or I was considered to be qualified. Assuming for argument's sake the latter, P-F-T as my only chance was insulting and degrading. In other words, I was already considered to be qualified on paper without needing P-F-T or other help.

While it is great rhetoric to say one would be hired on qualifications and experience, the fact is that there are a ton of people hired everyday because they have a silver bullet or know someone, right place at right time, etc..

Of course. Although sometimes you do not have an inside contact, or a bud who can walk in a resume. Sometimes, the only way is to apply off the street. In a way, not having that contact tilts the playing field to your disadvantage, however . . . .

One of the reasons that I have never been harsh on Gulfstream is that I do not believe that most people are doing anything they can to get the job. They wish they had the inside track or knew someone or etc.

But that's my point. Some people are better networkers than others. I see no harm or ethical penalty in networking, save for the classic "dad who is neighbor with the chief pilot" which lets an otherwise-unqualified pilot cut in line ahead of the qualified. I know few people who would not resent such a connection. Otherwise, networking does not involve the exchange of money for a job. But Gulfstream P-F-T does. By power of the buck the playing field is not only tilted, it has been turned vertical. That is wrong.

 

[Apache54]

What is PFT then???

To all, thanks for the input.

From the outside, it is abundantly clear that PFT is a major issue that permeates at the moral level, ie, it is really how I look at myself say if I go that route.

My question becomes this then... What does one say about an applicant from a regional without a 737 type going for an interview at SWA against a regional guy with a home bought 737 type? SWA will clearly place the typed guy above the non-typed any day of the week. Is this not PFT? The line becomes very gray to an outsider looking in and is pretty tough to then say "what is PFT?; how much PFT is ok?; why not PFT if it buys me a job?".

Now, I caveat the above question with this... I do agree that not hiring permanent FO's and relying on "students" of the FO program is not kosher. Would it then be "morally palatable" if the FO program guys flew on standby? I guess some, right off the bat would say "NO" and that the "student" is still holding a slot that a permanent hire should have? However, this world and most specifically, our economic system is built on having winners and losers... the haves and have-nots. Is it wrong to allow day laborers? Without them, our California broccoli would cost a lot more. Imagine our produce costs if all those guys were union. There's a reason that our trade deficit is so large - US labor is costly.

So I ask is it wrong for people to try to advance themselves by buying a job? Prior to joining the army to fly, I was a paramedic with NYC*EMS (and a staunch supporter of my union, Local 1199). I could've had the city pay for the training and pay me to go to the training, but that civil service list was over 2 years long... So I went to a college and got my medic on my own and applied and got hired in months. Was I bad? A scumbag?

I know some might think my mind is made up. It surely isn't and I would definitely prefer to work and let someone else pay me to learn and to build time.

Sorry for the book. I appreciate all the insight from the different angles. Besides... Things are getting real busy in my business and you all will be Captains in the majors, leaving me free to get right into an RJ by the time I can get out.

Fly safe

 

[Pilot877]

Using personal money to gain an advantage in the job market has been around as long as capitalism. The alternative is communism.

I agree with you that PFT is not good, but calling someone else a "scumbag" because they choose to take advantage of it doesn't show much class. People should accept responsibility for their own career instead of trying to blame others.

I did not call anybody a "scumbag" or any other names, and I have no complaints about my career at all.

However, there are those pilots out there who are frustrated with other pilots whoring themselves out (even though we all do on some level in this business), and feel that the practice of PFT cheapens the industry. Those pilots may sometimes vent their frustration here, since it is such a heated topic. A person who is offended by mud-slinging should probably refrain from reading any GIA thread.

We all take personal responsibility for our respective careers, I haven't read any post on this thread where somebody writes something like "I dont have an RJ job because of GIA."
Their First Officer program degrades the profession as a whole.

 

[Capt RJ]

Apache 54

I don't have a comment one way or another in regards to PFT, other than it is an individual choice. A 737 ( home paid ) type rating is a different story all together. SWA once again requires a 737 type rating just to apply for an F.O. position. Then again I can't go anywhere that I'm aware of and fly a 737 for 250 hrs and be guaranteed a interview- I probally would if it were available.

 

[Checks]

Apache,

Sounds like your mind is made up. Every month I see this Vince fellow in an ad for Gulfstream. He went from 0 hrs to CRJ FO in about 18months. Cant argue with those kind of results. Personally, I have never, and will never, buy a job or right seat time somewhere. Intergrity and the desire to see the aviation field improve motivate me to take the long hard road.

Maybe some of us are just fools. Actually, I know we are fools but I still would suggest NOT going to Gulfstream.

Be part of the solution NOT part of the problem.

 

[bobbysamd]

What is PFT then???

Originally posted by Apache54
Prior to joining the army to fly, I was a paramedic with NYC*EMS (and a staunch supporter of my union, Local 1199). I could've had the city pay for the training and pay me to go to the training, but that civil service list was over 2 years long... So I went to a college and got my medic on my own and applied and got hired in months. Was I bad? A scumbag?

Of course not. Compare going to school for EMT training to going to a career school to learn how to be a medical assistant. Sure, you could hope to be hired at a medical office and be trained, but they want qualified people. What you did is no different than someone going to a flight school or FBO and obtaining initial certificates and ratings.

I am sure that most people will agree that whether something is P-F-T is determined by a two-prong test: (1) Does money have to be exchanged from applicant to employer as a condition of employment of applicant by employer, and (2) Is the training received applicable only to that company or can it be used elsewhere. If the answers are "yes" to both than the program is P-F-T. Therefore, although plenty of people gripe about SWA's 737 type requirement, you cannot call it P-F-T. The 737 type you obtain to be competitive at SWA can be marketed to other 737 operators. Perhaps that requirement is worthy of criticism, but if you want to play with Herb's ball you have to play by his rules.

I appreciate Pilot877's name-calling comments. The frustration many feel about P-F-T is palpable. The name-calling is unnecessary.