Gulfstream First Officer Program

[Apache54]

PFT - not really the issue!

I think PFT is an issue that each individual has to deal with on their own. I regret that there seems to be great anymosity in the aviation industry right now, because other fields, a great number of other fields require you to have certain qualifications to apply - And if they don't require it, than it seems plainly simple to me that it is in your own best interest to become "best qualified". I am sorry that some people can't afford to "buy" a job. I can't either, and mom and dad are not an option, except for a good meal on the way.

So, in my eyes, dealing with PFT is a "caution" I would have to deal with. I am by no means decided on GIA or FSI/ASA or any other PFT program and I'm actively researching 135 or freight type stuff to build my multi-time. But I surely won't rule out a PFT program primarily due to one's anymosity towards the fact that I can obtain a stuent loan and have the VA pay 60% back. I agree that that may seem harsh - I'm not crossing a picket line. I am not settling for a job and pay that is substandard which in turn undermines the industry. If the GIA or FSI's ASA program, or any other PFT program is unsafe, then the FAA needs to get involved and change the fact that 135 mins are higher than 121 as far as flying experience and investigate these programs. But since the programs are either graduating fair enough pilots or weeding the poorer ones out - they are working as advertised... A cheap way for a company to obtain the skilled labor they require... This sucks, I agree... But I am supposed to start out towing a banner in a 172 for virtually nothing in pay or should I risk pissing off a few people that are neither paying my bills or feeding my family?

I'll continue to network and look for multi jobs that pay me to learn and earn. But I am still way too unclear as to the anymosity towards a PFT'er. I'm not looking for a fight - I just really want to better understand this PFT gripe. Every industry out there deals with this and people either put up the $$$ for what's necessary or settle for less of a job. I might not put up the money in this case because it may be allowing a company to keep students in full time slots - not because it may give me an "unfair" advantage!

Fly safe and keep the dirty side down, mostly!

 

[100LL... Again!]

Apache-

I would not criticize you for doing the GIA thing, even though I think you deserve better.

You paid your dues in the military, right? It is the Zero-time to FO wanna-bes that are worthy of the criticism.

I think you can get to the regionals without spending a fortune.

 

[B190Captain]

Re: B190Captain:

I didn't mean that all the GIA captains I've talked to thought that way. Just several I talked to a few months ago. About 2-3 months ago I was at the training center at FXE and talked to a few captains that were in recurrent. They asked a bunch of questions about Pinnacle and I told them everything you mentioned about no pay, no pass privelages, etc while in training. While that bothered them, there were about 4 or 5 of them that had the attitude I mentioned in my previous post. They cared more about having to sit right seat in an RJ than the no pay during training.

I do think it is quite possible that it will be longer than 5 years before the majors start hiring in any significant numbers. NWA just announced last week that they would like concessions and over 300 more furloughes. Delta will probably be the first to start hiring again, but even General Lee says it will be around 3-4 years before they would be looking to hire anyone, and he's pretty optimistic. The chances that you will be able to go straight to a major from GIA within the next 5 years are almost nonexistent.

P.S. Thanks for the good wishes on our next contract. It's a long way off though. (spring of '05 is amend date)

I am aware of that the majors are in too deep sh*t right now to begin to hire. But there are other viable alternatives that will come around within the next 5 years.

Fly Safe!!

 

[bobbysamd]

I've never met a P-F-T debate I didn't like

Apologies to Will Rogers.

I But I am still way too unclear as to the anymosity towards a PFT'er.

I'll try to put it in different terms. While I'm not privy to all of the inner workings of the military grade/rank promotion system, I will riddle you this question. How would you like it if a person of equal grade to you but junior in terms of date of grade was jumped ahead of you for the next higher grade? You had worked hard to get where you are. Perhaps the other person did - or maybe not. Or maybe that person had a mentor. Wouldn't you be at least a little upset that someone was jumped ahead of you? In other words, this other person cut in line ahead of you on the promotions list. You wouldn't find that to be fair, I am sure. That is at the heart of P-F-T.

All the other reasons, such as how it degrades pilots, and how so many P-F-T programs could be fraudulent, are also vital to the P-F-T debate.

Once more, as stated above several times, you deserve better than to have to pay for a job. I realize that it is a means to an end for you because you do not have fixed-wing experience. Sometimes, the end does not always justify the means. Once again, I sincerely urge you to network with other aviators in your unit. Most certainly someone must know of good fixed-wing transition programs for Army helo pilots.

Lots of luck to the unionized Gulfstream pilots trying to deal with anti-union Mr. Cooper.

 

[bobbysamd]

Two-prong P-F-T test - rebuttal

Originally posted by Jim
Lets take boobyamd's PFT test: I would say that under his criteria GIA is not PFT.

1. The money is not a condition of employment because the pilot is not guaranteed a permenant job. He is only guaranteed 250 hours of B1900 time as a SIC. Further, it is possible to be hired at GIA without PFTing - as either a FO or CA.

2. The training received can be used else where. There are plenty of B1900 outfits that love pilots with B1900 time. Plus the 121 and CRM training spices up anyone's resume. It's quality time, as proven by the number of GIA grads that have gone on to better regionals, national and majors.

1. The P-F-T applicant has paid for the training as a condition of employment. No payment, no training, therefore, no employment. He/she is receiving compensation for his FO duties. It says so on the Gulfstream literature. Therefore, it is a job. I assume that Gulfstream deducts payroll and Social Security taxes from his/her paycheck. It may not be a permanent position, but it is a temporary position. It is, by all definitions, a job.

2. We're talking about tangible credentials that are recognized throughout the business. The training received and paid for would be for how Gulfstream does business with its Beech 1900s. It does not result in a rating. Other companies may do business in their 1900s differently. To the best of my knowlege, no FO earns anything like a FlightSafety or Simuflight card, which would be a marketable credential. It is company-specific training. The FO paid for his/her time, and that is plain. For that reason, the value of that time may be doubtful. Therefore, the 1900 operators of which you speak may discount the experience. If operators place greater value on 1900 time earned in a non-P-F-T environment, the value of the Gulfstream time has been severely discounted.

If it is true that a non-P-F-T'er can be hired as a Gulfstream FO, that adds further insult to injury. In other words, to borrow from a well-know expression, why should one pay for it when he can get it for free? I realize that Gulfstream hires street captains.

 

[46Driver]

Bobbysamd,
Just a couple of quick points:
1) It is not uncommon for seniority (i.e. rank) to be substantially changed following promotion boards. (Someone junior gets promoted while you do not and thus he becomes your superior - a famous example is the relationship between Patton and Bradley) Also, a lower ranking officer can be in a command billet over others who are linearly senior. It is a very competitive and fluid situation which rewards initiative and hustle unlike a union's seniority list which is forever frozen.
2) Unlike the naval services, it is extremely difficult to get fixed wing time in the army - literally hundreds if not thousands of requests for a limited number of billets - with the decision of who gets them being made by HQ.

 

[CRJ puppy]

5 days ago I wrote:

"Oh man...

Brace yourself for the stream of negative comments that will follow! You opened up a serious can-o-worms!"


Do you believe me now Apache54?

Bet you never suspected your request would get so much attention.

Good luck at whatever you decide to do!

Blue skies...

 

[T-Gates]

Good Discussion

I have to really say that this has been one of the better more informative threads about the pros/cons of PFT. Everyone here has made good points. As stated above and in many past posts no two sides will ever agree on the issue at hand. I've said it once and I'll say it agin. PFT is a choice, if you don't like it don't do it or support it! Thats fine. In this industry, no matter what you do, you will always rub someone the wrong way. That's just how it is.

Last week I was up front in an American 757 in LAX talking during a long gate-delay. They were overly nice and then they asked me about GIA. I told them that it worked for me and I was happy with the results. Then they asked if I regretted PFT'ing. I said no. It got me where I am now and I am very happy with the postion I am in. It turns out that the Captain wants to send his kid to GIA and the F/O's brother paid at CoEx in 98'. All the friends that pointed me in the direction of GIA were airline captains whith 20+ years seniority. All of the people that guided me away from GIA were 1200 hour CFI's or junior F/O's at a regional. I took the experience factor into play and chose to go to GIA.

Alot of people throw names around to make thier arguments sound more viscious. Like SCUMBAG and SCAB. In fact some recruiter at Comair Academy is telling everyone that if you attend GIA you will be labled as a SCAB and blacklisted. When I called him up, he had no idea as to the meaning of the term and retracted all of his statements. Turns out he is a 300 hour student working on his CFI. That is someone who has no buisness caling names. I respect the opinions of people like Bobby and others who have paid thier dues and want to council others. But I do not respect anyone who is uneducated and likes to throw around names. All that shows is complete unprofessionalism on thier part.

Just my .02

--03M

 

[bobbysamd]

Military promotions

Bobbysamd,
Just a couple of quick points:
1) It is not uncommon for seniority (i.e. rank) to be substantially changed following promotion boards. (Someone junior gets promoted while you do not and thus he becomes your superior - a famous example is the relationship between Patton and Bradley) Also, a lower ranking officer can be in a command billet over others who are linearly senior. It is a very competitive and fluid situation which rewards initiative and hustle unlike a union's seniority list which is forever frozen.
2) Unlike the naval services, it is extremely difficult to get fixed wing time in the army - literally hundreds if not thousands of requests for a limited number of billets - with the decision of who gets them being made by HQ.

Thanks for the clarifications. I also understand that if you're passed over for promotion twice you have to separate or retire, even though you may love the service and want to stay.

I realize that C-12 gigs are hard to get, but it was a thought I had for Apache instead of P-F-T. What about the OV-10 program? Or T-41s (I realize that would be 172 time, but it would be fixed-wing)?

I've run into majors pilots who do not approve of P-F-T. I would submit that there are legions of majors pilots who have no clue about the aviation world outside of their niche. They hear "121 time" when asked about Gulfstream P-F-T and encourage a would-be aspirant to go for it. Not considering, again, that the end does not justify the means. They have credibility because they are flying for the majors. Just because they fly for the majors doesn't mean they are omniscient.

As always, just my 2¢ opinions based on my experiences and perceptions. Your mileage may vary.

 

[46Driver]

Bobbysamd,
You are correct - passed over twice and you either have to retire or separate - end of career. Strange thing is if you are passed over and have to separate, you get a severance check - you resign and get nothin'.... Also, you can be passed over on active duty, go to the reserves, get promoted, and then possibly return to active duty (as you can imagine, its anything goes in the reserves right now).
If you are in the Navy or Marines, you have a reasonable chance of being a T-34C instructor or flying C-12's (I think the C-12' are being phased out in favor of Gulfstreams). Army aviation training is different in the fact that students start directly in helos (naval students start in airplanes and then select jets, props, or helos) - thus there are no fixed wing instructor slots. Hope this helps clear things up.
One distinct possibility is going to an Air Force or ANG unit and flying fixed wing there - you get fixed wing time and more reserve retirement points. There are plenty of Air Force types on this board who can expound upon this better than me (or is it I??).

Fly Safe.