Gulfstream First Officer Program

[geographer]

I have been reading this for the past couple days and it amazes me how people can bash the PFT at Gulfstream when they know nothing about the program. You dont pay for your job at Gulfstream, you just pay for 250 hours in the 1900. The airline and the training academy are two seperate companies. Basically the students pay the acedemy to train them in the 1900 and then the academy leases the students to the airline for their 250 hours in the 1900. I was lucky enough to go thru the program before 9/11 so I am hired permanently with the company. In order to be hired after your 250 hours you have to go thru an interview with the airline just like anywhere else and you have to get letters of recommendations from captains you flew with. The airline currently has a hiring pool for FO's that have been interviewed, but since there has been little movement at the company nobody has been called. We do have a union for permanent hire employees that protects us from furlough if the students are flying.
As mentioned before many commuters did the same thing in the early 90's and nobody had a problem with them then. If you say it was because they hired people that is paying for your job. The difference with gulfstream you rent 250 hours then you interview for the job.

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream P-F-T

You dont pay for your job at Gulfstream, you just pay for 250 hours in the 1900.

But you are paid $8/hour during that time, aren't you? You receive a paycheck, don't you? Gulfstream Airlines deducts federal withholding taxes and Social Security, doesn't it? If I am wrong about these points, please correct me. I believe that I am correct:

Copied from the Gulfstream web site:

Gulfstream Academy's airline-affiliated flight schools offers today's career-oriented aviation professionals many unique advantages, including our one-of-a-kind written guarantee that each and every Gulfstream graduate will be accepted into Gulfstream International Airlines' paid First Officer training program.

Gulfstream Academy's First Officer Training Course is for licensed pilots and offers FAR 121 ground, simulator and flight training, plus 250 hours in a turbine-powered Beechcraft 1900 as a paid First Officer for Gulfstream International Airlines.

(emphasis added)

And the following was copied from the Gulfstream FAQ page:

2. Will I really get paid while I'm flying co-pilot during the 250 programmed hours?

Answer: Yes, you will be paid, $8.00 per flight hour, commencing when you have completed the Initial Operating Experience requirement, for the balance of the 250 hours.

(emphasis added)

Therefore, your paid-for 250-hour FO position is a job, for which you are paid and for which you paid. Implied in the FAQ answer is that you will not be paid during your IOE, which means that you will not receive compensation for all 250 hours for which you paid.

In the law, there is the concept of res ipsa loquitor, which means "the thing speaks for itself." It certainly does.

I was lucky enough to go thru the program before 9/11 so I am hired permanently with the company. In order to be hired after your 250 hours you have to go thru an interview with the airline just like anywhere else and you have to get letters of recommendations from captains you flew with.

Not only lucky. You were blessed.

But what's the percentage of P-F-T FOs who are hired and the percentage who are not?? Without a doubt in my $0.02 opinion, the latter far outstrips the former. Moreover, does Gulfstream hire street FOs? I suspect not. The only way one can hire on as Gulfstream FO is to pay for it, no?

As mentioned before many commuters did the same thing in the early 90's and nobody had a problem with them then.

Baloney. Were you looking for commuter flying jobs in the early '90s? I suspect not. I was. There indeed was P-F-T in the early '90s at many regional airlines. I, for one, had a bigggggg problem with it.

Please be careful about whom you accuse of being misinformed.

 

[geographer]

I dont want to get into a pissing contest with you over whos way is better. As for the pay during your 250 you are right it's 8 dollars an hour, which is why the cost of training keeps going up. Basically you are paying yourself and yes Gulfstream has to take out money for the IRS. The program used to cost about 15 grand less than it does today because fo's were not paid, but some legal issue came up and they found out they had to pay the FO's so they raised the price. Anyway it should not matter how people get their flight time because everybody is different.

As for you people who call PFT's scum bags that just shows your true colors as a human being.

 

[d.fitz]

How does everyone feel about places like CHQ that make you sign a $10,000 promissory note?

That looks to me exactly like paying for a job. It is a requirement of employment and would (or at least should) be in your paycheck as take-home pay.

I haven't and wont PFT because I dont agree with it. But I also think that people are quick to say that this is the evil of the industry and I dont agree with that, either. If you really look at it - you are paying for training one way or the other. You are paying for training by staying a flight instructor for longer - rather than having a friend walk in your resume. In this instance - you are paying in time - you could be a third year FO but you didnt apply for two extra years - now your a first year FO.

The real "evil" is that there are more pilots than positions and as such - the pay is crap. If there were 10 pilots and 300 positions at every airline - You sure would see a jump in pay. So if people PFT, doesnt really matter - its not going to change the pay up or down. There are alot of people who say that they wont give someone a shot if they have PFT, but there are a ton more that I know that couldnt care less - and some of those actually are on hiring boards... FWIW

I say - do what you can to get a job. If you cant "cut-in-line" in some fashion you arent getting hired in todays market. IMHO.

 

[luvthedc10]

Pay for training....................

Well, isn't going through college and earning all of the required licenses/ratings enough to pay for?? I'm astonished to hear what some people will pay to get a job, mostly due to the fact that it hurts others just as much as it will hurt themselves.

Can the average person afford to put themselves through flight school and then pay additional money to go through some special program that "guarantees" them a job? Um, no. Almost everyone I talk to that has done that has taken out tremendous loans and in the end what is the difference between them and a guy who has found a 135 outfit and stayed there to build his time...........nothing. Each person has their own opinion, and thats fine, but I never want to hear that paying for training is the ONLY way to get a job. Regardless of the economic climate, I still see people getting 135 jobs, they may not be the best or even close, but nonetheless, they are paid and you are building time. Ask a person who has PFT and I bet that none of them were happy about it, so if anything, sitting on this board and approving of such a thing is completely insane.

Like I said, to each his own. However, what is this really creating? It's creating an environment where a kid that normally would never do such a thing is forced to make a decision due to the fact someone else lowballs him. What are we talking about now? It is connections?? Is it pilot skill?? Is is technical expertise?? No, its money. Thats just not what the pilot profession should be about, just my opinion.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. Promissory Notes v. training bonds and training contracts

How does everyone feel about places like CHQ that make you sign a $10,000 promissory note?

That looks to me exactly like paying for a job. It is a requirement of employment and would (or at least should) be in your paycheck as take-home pay.

It's not the same as paying for a job. It is a training bond. Take a look at the note. Probably, it expires after a time certain.

Training contracts and training bonds should not offend people. Airlines invest a lot of money in training crew. Training crew is expensive and regionals lose money if they cannot recoup their investment. I do not blame them for trying to keep their people. If someone says he/she will stay for X amount of time, he/she should keep his/her word. If someone leaves early, the person should be allowed to buy his/her way out of a training contract.

Training contracts and training bonds are not even similar to P-F-T. Once more, apply this two-prong test: (1) if the potential employee must remit money to the potential employer as a condition of hire and (2) the training the employer provides is specific to that employer only and has no application elsewhere and/or there is no market for it elsewhere, then it is P-F-T.

 

[geographer]

Actually it cost about $20 grand less for me to go to college, earn my certificates, and complete the gulfstream fo program than my sibling who went to Embry Riddle.

 

[B190Captain]

Like I said, to each his own. However, what is this really creating? It's creating an environment where a kid that normally would never do such a thing is forced to make a decision due to the fact someone else lowballs him. What are we talking about now? It is connections?? Is it pilot skill?? Is is technical expertise?? No, its money. Thats just not what the pilot profession should be about, just my opinion.

At GIA the money is not a condition of hire. It's their attitude and performance that makes them be eligible to be hired.

Granted they do pay for the training but they are recommended by line captains and interviewed before they make the seniority list.

If what you say is right Bobbysamd about money being a condition of hire is PFT then many other carriers out there at one time or another were PFT.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm sorry, could you repeat that? I was distracted by this wonderful picture on the side of the screen.

 

[T-Gates]

I just want to know what kind of sites your surfin' to find that picture!

 

[T-Gates]

I'm sorry, could you repeat that? I was distracted by this wonderful picture on the side of the screen.

PCL, don't lie, we all know you don't like that kind of "stuff".

--03M

 

[bobbysamd]

Non-Gulfstream P-F-T carriers

If what you say is right Bobbysamd about money being a condition of hire is PFT then many other carriers out there at one time or another were PFT.

Go back about thirteen years. COEX required money to change hands as a condition of hire for several years. Air Midwest, before Mesa bought it, had a P-F-T program during that time. Those are two examples that immediately come to mind.

And I'm talking about it from a practical matter. Yes, some of these outfits advertise apparently stringent "hiring" requirements and make it sound as if you practically have to beg them to accept you. After acceptance, they make you feel that you are lucky they selected you. Just brandish your check, though, and that's all the "luck" and quals you'll ever need.

 

[TankCommander]

After serving this great country for 18 years I feel like venting.....
My Bio: 6 yr USMC infintry, 12 yr US Armored Cav. Tank Commander.
19 small arm fire fights-Central America 82-85
2 major armored battles Gulf 1
1st tank across Solva river Bosnia x-mas morning 95
88 combat patrols Bosnia 96-97
44 combat patrols Kosavo 97-98

15 ribbions / 17 medals 4th highest dec. soldier on active duty
at retirement.

And Why only 18yrs? I was road hard and put up wet to many times. reconstructive surg. on right leg and face, but spinal surg. is what sent me packing early.

I've wanted to be a pilot since I was a kid, But like some of us, I was born a poor white child. I enlisted in the military at 18 but kept the dream alive. After seeing the world and back surg. I had a choice: stay behind a desk for the next two years for my full retirement, 1,000.00 amonth for the rest of my life, or take early sep. and get 70,000.00. I still wanted to learn to fly, so I took the money. I had never heard of this P-F-T crap nor this great feud surrounding it. I moved to FL to attend Gulfstream Academy. I was looking at Comair. I met two Delta pilots on layover in Colorado Springs, CO at an Irish pub. Over a few Guinusses, I asked them if I was going the right direction. They were the ones who told me about Gulfstream. I have really enjoyed the time I have spent at Gulfstream and the people I have met there. I've met Tom Cooper, I admire him for what he has built from one airplane that he flew himself. He has a passion for aviation, and likes to see people who have the dream to fly acheive it. The whole Eastern thing was before my time and I really don't know enough about it to form an opinion on it. One thing I have learned in my short time wlking this earth is "judge no man until you have walked a mile in his mokisins". I paid for 121 training and 250hrs turbine time. I did not pay for a job. The right seat of a GIA plane could never be occupied by a full paid full benefit pilot. The airline was not started with idea, nor could it financially afford it. GIA to me does not look like it is looking for world domination in the commuter industry. The 121 training is great. the two weeks OM and systems two weeks CPT and full motion really gets you ready.
Someone commented about our flying ability. I will only speak for myself, I will put my knowledge of 121 regs, the BE1900D systems, and general aviation against anybody's.
You see, the same personal strengths that made me a profficient Marine, Soldier and Tank Commander, are what make me a profficient First Officer. All I have done is changed my mode of transportation.
I see alot of generalizations about people who attend GIA. Rich "mommy's" and "daddy's", the big check books. My sim partner retired Chicago PD after 30yrs. The only pilot I know I would share a fox-hole with.
If Iraq had not been pushed out of Kuwait in 90, and Iraq had keep control of 1/3 of oil export out of the middle-east, we would all be GreyHound Bus drivers. So, my dues are paid. In fact for some of you that did not feel the need to join me because you were building your hours, flying for a reg. or a major; I and my fellow soldiers paid part of yours too!

 

[capt_zman]

With all due respect Tank Commander, you are a fool. You separated early for 70k (during a recession), to spend half of YOUR hard-earned cash for 250 hours in a 1900, whereas, you could have spent 2 more years pushing paper behind a desk and guaranteeing a $1000 deposit per month for life?? I'm sorry, but this could have been the worst financial decision I have ever heard.

In all sincerity, what do you think you are going to do with 250 hours and an unparalleled knowledge of the FAR's and 1900 systems? Did you think about the fact that you are competing against multi-thousand hour pilots, ranging from 2000 to 20,000 hours who have forgotten more than you have learned? Did you think that maybe you won't get a job immediately upon graduation from Gulfstream and would have to carve into your remaining 35k? What if you don't get a job for a year or two, will you have any of your remaining cash left? Will you even remember all the knowledge you paid for at Gulfstream?

It's truly a shame that the Gulfstream's and the Darby's are able to provide false hope to people like yourself, because you deserve better. You helped protect this country and its interests for 18 years, and should be respected by all Americans. Unfortunately, the reality is that you were disrespected and violated by buying into Gulfstream's money sucking vacuum and actually believing that you got a good deal.

I honestly wish you the best of luck and hope that you prove me wrong.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

After serving this great country for 18 years I feel like venting.....
My Bio: 6 yr USMC infintry, 12 yr US Armored Cav. Tank Commander.
19 small arm fire fights-Central America 82-85
2 major armored battles Gulf 1
1st tank across Solva river Bosnia x-mas morning 95
88 combat patrols Bosnia 96-97
44 combat patrols Kosavo 97-98

15 ribbions / 17 medals 4th highest dec. soldier on active duty
at retirement.

Please accept my best regards and respect for your Marine record. USMC members automatically have my respect and admiration, but someone with your record, even more so.

However (as predicted by others here, I'm sure), I second Capt. Zman on your decision to P-F-T. My 2¢ opinion is those Delta pilots misled you. So many pilots at the majors are cocooned in their own little world that they lose perception of the real world. They hear "121 experience" and advise neophytes to go for it, without realizing the ramifications.

So, you complete your 250 hour hitch and Gulfstream does not hire you as a "real" FO. Where does that leave you? With 250 paid-for 121 hours and light in time in other important areas, such as total time, PIC, and multi. Unless you have substantial other flying quals, you won't find a real 121 job anytime soon. You probably have low time - not enough to meet the mins for the vast majority of commuters - which means you must build up the time somewhere, somehow. That very well could mean spending more money to get your CFI, so you have a tangible, marketable credential. After a time, your 121 Gulfstream time will become stale. You may find yourself back to Square One in landing the next job.

Best of luck to you. You were disrespected. You deserve the best because of what you gave to our country.

 

[TankCommander]

With all due respect capt_zman, you are a ........... well, you all ready used fool, so I'll use ......... "BONEHEAD"!

I read some of your other postings just to see who you were and what you were about. I think I figured you out. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Does that look about right?
Thats fine. In a capitalist country we need good busniss people like you. I am wondering though...... were you born into a poor family like me? Something tells me you weren't. How many planes do you own? I think I read four?
Anyway, I really don't think you have any concept of me or what being a soldier is like. Watching TV does not count. I stayed in the millitary for as long as I did because I loved it. As a Tank Commander, I was in charge of a 6 million dollar veh. I trained soldiers, young men that came from broken homes, had no self esteem, no disipline... pretty much a future that neither one of us would want. I watch them grow up, I mentored them, watched them get married, and have children. Two of them, I took their bodies back home to their parents and folded a flag over there coffins and presented the flag to their mothers and told them "on behalf of a greatful nation I present you this flag." Last count, I'm the god father of 14 children. My soldiers that call or e-mail me still address me as Sergent.
Inorder to do this you must "LEAD BY EXAMPLE". This is another reason I left after my back surg. Soldiers deserved to be lead by example, not by an NCO behind a desk; but I don't expect you to understand that. After the surg I could not run nor be on a tank. I served my country, my country did not serve me! I was making $23,000 a year, and that was at 18yrs of service. It's obviouse I didn't stay for the money.
You stated: "...you could have spent 2 more years pushing paper behind a desk and guaranteeing a $1000 deposit per month for life"? I'm not going to buy a trailer in the back woods of Tennesee so I can collect state subsedes and live off my $1000.00 a month retierment. 70k, yes I had a chance to get a head start since I'm 38yrs old.
Is that what really pisses you off?
If it does, here's something that will really grab your goat. It was all tax payer money. Yes, you helped me learn to fly... Thanks!
You stated: "...did you think about the fact that you are competing against multi-thousand hour pilots, ranging from 2,000 to 20,000 hours who have forgotten more than you have learned?"
Oh, You are so right. I don't think anyone should be learning to fly right now....Get out of here!!!!! We all make our way with the personal attributes that we bring to a company that we get hired to work for. I spoke to a senior Captin that worked for a major airline. He sits on an interview borad. I asked him what he looks for in someone that he would hire. He told me everyone interviewed meets the requierments for the job, time and ratings. He said the person being interviewed has three minutes to answer one question that he has. Its not one he verbally asks, but rather, "would I want to sit in a cockpit with this guy for eight hours?"
In the CAV we had some Tank Commanders that were not that good. They knew what they had to know. They were pompous asses that were hard to deal with day to day. No soldiers wanted to be on his crew. He could not train soldiers, he didn't have the patince. When **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** hit the fan he froze. Basicly he was no asset to the unit at all. I have learned that these poeple exsist in aviation also.

Anyway, I'm sitting here rambleing. My wife just walked by wearing a smile......... I got work to do!

capt_zman one more thought....... At this very moment, as you read this, your chest gets tight and you fall to the floor. As you look up at the ceiling you know this is it, it's over. Tell me, what would you give to get 2 more years....... $1000.00 a month?
The one thing none of us can buy is time.

Thanks for your thoughts, some of them anyway

 

[B190Captain]

Just out of curiosity, I thought Tank Commanders were officers.

Well, I could be wrong of course.

 

[stillaboo]

I spoke to a senior Captin that worked for a major airline. He sits on an interview borad. I asked him what he looks for in someone that he would hire. He told me everyone interviewed meets the requierments for the job, time and ratings.

That's the point, TC. With your experience, if you're not hired by Gulfstream, you won't even get invited to interview anywhere else. You may have the required minimum time to sit in the right seat of anything legally, but, 250 hours of 1900 time or not, you aren't competitive with even a 3000 hr CFI, let alone all the furloughed guys looking for jobs these days.

I think the Delta pilots had your best interests at heart, but didn't give you good advice. Do whatever it is you have to do to get hired at Gulfstream (pay them some more $? Sorry, I couldn't resist). If not, your 1900 time, while great experience, will just be Multi time at your next 121 interview, which likely won't be happening any time soon.

Good luck!
-Boo!

 

[broncodrvr]

Hey Tank Commander. I got out in '97 after 13 yrs. Ex USN Rescue Swimmer, USA Infantry Officer light and mech. i shared many of your hot spots. After I got out I went to the corporate sector, had a nice office and salary and absolutely hated it. You simply need to look at your circumstances, and choose whichever route best fits your needs. You are the one that is going to get yourself into the airlines; not some company or somebody else (aside from who you know). I am a GIA guy. I looked at where I was at in life, and it was the best route at the time. I interviewd like everyone else and gave it more than 110%. The questions "hey did you PFT?", or "so you're a GIA guy?" never comes up on the flightdeck. Nobody cares because it is trivial. Everyone is there to do a job, and enjoy themselves. The 1 out of 500 times it comes up, I tell the person where I did my 1900 time, and it is the end of the story. Either they do not have the fortitude to back up their ideals, or they simply do not care. I tend to think it is the second of the two. I totally agree that a 250 hour pilot with knowledge of the FARS and experience is really not in competition with the 6-10k hour person. You get what you put into it. Personally I take my job seriously and put a lot into it; studying, sims, etc.... so, I expect to get a lot from it. We are all proffessional pilots on those flight decks, hence we act that way. I would not care if the President bought your job. If you knew your stuff, and were a professional crew, enough said. Take the route that best suits you, and go for it because you never know uless you try. HOOHA!

 

[broncodrvr]

Just out of curiosity, I thought Tank Commanders were officers.

The lowest level which incorportes an Officer is the platoon level. This level generally has 4 vehicles. 1 Officer commands one and is resonsible for "leading" the remaining 3; 4 highly trained and professional NCOs command the other 3. Often times working in pairs without the supervision of an "O".