Gulfstream First Officer Program

[bobbysamd]

As always, I cannot resist a P-F-T discussion

Someone above used the cutting-in-line analogy. Thank you. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

Part of the P-F-T problem is that people are in so much of a hurry. They cannot wait, or they don't want to wait. Some of these people are older and perhaps envision an age discrimination problem. So, they hurry!!

What makes older career changers any more privileged or deserving than a 21-year-old starting his/her career? Nothing. I was older. All I ever wanted was to be treated the same as others. That's all anyone wants, really. Male or female, younger or older.

I was 37 years old when I landed my first full-time flying job. It was instructing, at ERAU. It promised the opportunity to build experience and hours. I did so in about 1½ years. In my case, I had about 1100 hours but was extremely light on multi. I built about 580 hours to 630 of multi during that time and still had plenty of single-engine students.

I was not the only somewhat-older career changer at ERAU. We had another instructor who was a couple of years younger than me. He earned a degree at Riddle and got on with Bar Harbor about a year after I was hired. Now, this person may be flying for big Continental.

I will write again that I could have P-F-T'd. Around 1992, about the only way to get a regional airline job was to P-F-T. I was still a relative newcomer to professional aviation. All the ethical considerations aside, common sense and experience told me that you do not pay an employer for a job. P-F-T sounded like a scam to me. It still does - in more ways than one.

As far as I'm concerned, there is never an excuse to P-F-T. Especially being older. It's okay for me to talk about "older"; I'm 52 now.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[bobbysamd]

DAY ONE GROUND SCHOOL...

Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you for contributing to the Gulfstream Bottom Line. Our goal, as always, is to take a position in which most airlines have to pay a professional to work and sell it to you, thereby removing one paid employee per flight. Your generous contribution has allowed us to continue in this manner.

In today's class we're going to start with check lists. Please memorize the following and we'll test it out tomorrow when you take your first revenue flight in the vaunted Beech 1900.

Flaps Up - RESPOND WITH "Flaps UP"

Gear Up - RESPOND WITH "Gear UP"

Shut Up - NO RESPONSE NECESSARY

And that concludes your training. Good luck on the line. And, ahhh, ohh, please remember, as your flight time nears 230 hours to renew your contract for uninterrupted flight time. I've got bank routing numbers if you need them. Thanks, my name is Tom and if you would please fill out your Ground School Evaluation forms and deposit them in the slot at the door.

Very funny post!!

 

[SpocksBeard]

thats freaking hilarious!!

 

[SRMairlines]

My Advice:

You are taking the easy way out. I don't think what you do in the short term will matter, but it will cost you $$$$$$$$ in the long term. Airline hiring isn't happening and you will only support an airline that craves the most out of one of it'sworkers..... AN EMPLOYEE WHO IS WILLING TO PAY HIS/HER OWN MONEY TO WORK AT AN AIRLINE...

PEACE... But make better decisions than your peers

 

[d.fitz]

just a thought here....

What would all of you people who hate PFT say if he said he was spending $25,000 to rent a multi-engine airplane and fly around the country for 250 hours. Its exactly the same thing - he is supporting a flight school and paying to get a job.

I DEFINITELY think pilot pay sucks and would like to offer a good idea to help improve it (if I had one) - but I dont think Gulfstream really is the reason (or even a contributing factor) in why regional pilots get paid so little. These places exist because they can - they are making money at it...

Maybe one factor is regional airlines being limited by scope. Lets face it - a regional jet can handle every line in this country and do it cheaper on alot of the shorter runs - so scope by its existence - helps and hurts (in terms of competition).

That in combination with supply and demand - and the fact that pilots will accept these jobs at such a low pay. If no one took the job they would have to raise wages. This certainly happens in the aerospace industry when they need engineers - a few years back no one wanted to move to Wichita, KS - so the pay went through the roof to entice people here.

Not trying to start an argument - just offering a viewpoint.

What do you think?

 

[T-Gates]

Ahhh, this thread hath sufaced............

I wonder if some of those guys are furloughed now and cant get jobs at places like pinnacle b/c PFTers have there slots?

Why don't you ask the 5 furloughed NW Mainline guys in my class at PCL. How many of those furloughed guys are you talking about are willing to give up thier seniroity at a major to make 1st year F/O pay at Pinnacle?

And your comments about the Senior Capt vs. 1200 hr. CFI are well taken. You are right, when my family friends told me thier opinions they were telling me to go PFT because it didn't affect thier position one bit. While my friends who were CFI's were guding me towards the traditional route of CFI'ing because they were paying thier dues in the right seat of a 172, and didn't want someone to cut them off. Very understandable. In hind sight, mabye I would have done differently. But I will never look back and worry about the fact I PFT'ed. If someone confronts me about it I just hope they are professional enough to discuss it without becoming confrontational.

--03M

 

[KingAirer]

Nicely Put. But, My point about the furloughees is that some of the folks that would be getting the job at Pinnacle, for example, are not able to b/c of pfters.

I agree with you that, what is done is done and you cant change anything. I am glad that you see who you did and did not effect. I would just like to educate those who are considering it about the pros and cons of it all. Thanks for your input.

 

[bobbysamd]

Renting v. P-F-T

What would all of you people who hate PFT say if he said he was spending $25,000 to rent a multi-engine airplane and fly around the country for 250 hours . . . . .

I would call it foolish. Anyone can buy flight time. The hours might be in the logbook and be legit, but because they were purchased the experience would be seen as less valuable thatn building it via employment. The more cynical would see this flight time purchase as another way of trying to cut in line.

$25K is enough to live on for a year for many people. Keep that thought in mind.

ut I dont think Gulfstream really is the reason (or even a contributing factor) in why regional pilots get paid so little. These places exist because they can - they are making money at it...

(emphasis added)

And that is the root cause of P-F-T. The places that peddle it are the root cause of the problem. Obviously, you can't snuff them. What you can to is to urge those who hear the P-F-T lorelei to resist it.

 

[airbaker]

Well as someone who was around during the first downturn of the 90's and is now intimately familiar with the this downturn (ie furloughed from AA) I'd like to chime in on PFT'ing. Don't do it.

It reared it's ugly head in the early to mid ninties (thousand were on furlough then too), and it's sure to make a comeback. Just an FYI, Pilot877 said:

"Just a thought: PFT as a practice is a bad thing. Back in the early 90's, PFT was probably the only way to get a job at a regional airline. Thank God and good pilot groups that it does not exist anymore. I do, however, consider that the pilot who PFT'd at a regional in the '90's went on to make full pay for his/her position and was able to move up the ranks to captain.
To me, there is a huge difference between that and the GIA student who paid a lot more $$ for a 250 hr program that left them out on the street and only made $8 an hour as a First Officer."

I just wanted to comment on that statement. It was wrong to PFT then just as it's wrong to PFT now. It doesn't matter that a particular pilot "went on to make make full pay for his/her position"... There were jobs in the mid ninties that didn't require you to PFT. Off the top of my head it was Skywest, Eagle, Horizon, West Air, Trans States, Allegeney, and maybe a few others. Not all of them were hiring, but it wasn't impossible to not have to PFT. All you had to do was work a little harder. I know I "paid my dues" CFI'ing and flying single pilot freight for over 4 years just to get the hours to be competitive at a non-PFT airline.

Those of us that didn't PFT during that era will always remember. Hell, we're probably all furloughed because we weren't able to take the shortcut; I guarantee you though that if any of us makes it on a hiring board you'll get a veto.


So my final advice would be to gain some real experience before you PFT; you'll never have to question that.

Signed,

A proud CFI, Freight-Dog, non-PFT'ing Commuter puke, and now Furloughee

 

[Pilot877]

Thanks for the insight, I was under the impression that all of the airlines ran things as PFT back then. Was it looked down upon at the time or was PFT just generally an accepted practice? There are a lot of pilots still here at ACA who had to pay for their training because that used to be the only way in. I'm sure it is the same way at Comair and a lot of other express carriers out there.


Pilot877
(former CFI- but once a charter bum, always a charter bum)

 

[AlohaFlyer]

Re: Apache54:

As a former GIA student and employee, I have some reservations about the company. However, in your case I would say that the First Officer Program is just what you need. After you finish your 250 hours in the 1900 you will most likely get an interview with Pinnacle (Northwest Airlink). With your experience you will almost certainly get the job unless you say something really stupid. Six or eight months from when you start at GIA you could be training in the CRJ. It would work great for you.

The people on here that blast those that PFT are the minority in this business. They are a very vocal minority, but a minority none the less. As B190Captain said earlier, GIA grads have gone on to jobs at just about every major and regional airline there is. Even CoEx, which is very partial to CFI experience, hired many GIA grads before 9/11. It is highly unlikely that you will ever be denied a job because you went to GIA.

Thanks PCL_128.... Thanks to this thread I have decided that GIA is also the right think for me as well. It is good to hear from an ex-GIA grad. I think that these guys have a very professional program, and for someone like me that studies best in an envirnment like that where I can focus on the task on a full time basis, I think it will serve me well...

Thanks Again,

Ryan

 

[airbaker]

Pilot877,

Of course I'm biased, but PFT'ing brought about the same negativities back then as it does now. There's no doubt about it, it was a tough environment back then. Just to meet the average hiring mins at most non-PFT airlines, you needed at least 2500 -3000 tt and 500 - 1000 multi. If memory serves me correctly, Comair, Coex, ACA and ASA were some of the biggest offenders. I used to be based on the East Coast, and can remember numerous occasions where mixed crews would bump into each other (in a terminal, getting a coffee, waiting for a hotel van, etc...). I'm not in any way trying to come across as arrogant, but there was a tangible sense of pride when you'd look at their ID's, and then they'd look at yours...coversations usually became sterile after that.

I know everyone has choices to make. I also in no way think that a PFT'er has inferior flying skills vs. a non-PFT'er. I'd just hope that the bulk of our pilot group won't marginalize pilot compensation in the hopes of "living the dream".

 

[climbhappy]

paid for training

there is no difference in someone doing the PFT thing, and having a friend walk a resume in.

the good ol boy network preferentially excludes those who might be more qualified.

what about all those women Us air and united hired two years ago, from cc air and piedmont and allegany?

they were mostly FO's, and hired instead of more qualified captains.


what bobbymsand and some others fail to realize here is that there is a double standard. They use the checkbook as their sole argument, but deny or discount the value,prevalence and role that buddies walking in resumes play, and hiring quotas.

i have flown with some gulstreamers and they're as good as the kid who instructed.

all the 172 time in the world doesn't mean jack..... and since when do rules in corporate america and this society, except drive 55, apply?

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. Contacts

there is no difference in someone doing the PFT thing, and having a friend walk a resume in.

the good ol boy network preferentially excludes those who might be more qualified.

That's preposterous. Think again about what've you've written and you'll see that there's no comparison to having someone walk in a resume for you and paying for a job!!!!!!

For one thing, with P-F-T forking over cash to the company is a condition of employment. In other words, no check, no job. Moreover, walking in resumes is no guarantee of consideration. I know. I tried to get SkyWest's attention for six years. I had a student who had gotten on at Skywest who offered to walk in fresh materials for me. I took her up on it, and even included another $15 application fee check. My check was returned. I was never called.

what about all those women Us air and united hired two years ago, from cc air and piedmont and allegany?

they were mostly FO's, and hired instead of more qualified captains.

That is neither a P-F-T issue or an inside reference issue. That's a subject for another discussion, on affirmative action or whatever.

what bobbymsand and some others fail to realize here is that there is a double standard. They use the checkbook as their sole argument, but deny or discount the value,prevalence and role that buddies walking in resumes play, and hiring quotas.

You cannot say there is a double standard. P-F-T and the old boy network are separate, distinct and mutually exclusive issues. I agree that is unfair that someone may have a father who is friends with a Chief Pilot while others may not, but such advantages are not comparable in any way to P-F-T. Few people decry the value of inside references, but as I learned not even inside references will guarantee you consideration. Sure as shootin', though, your checkbook will.

 

[climbhappy]

nice rebuttal..bobbysamd

i do think the two are closely related in this way. I see your point, but I don't think it is preposterous...

the corellation is as follows: to be hired ahead of anyone for any reason is to bring to light the argument of qualifications versus shortcuts....we'll lump everything that could go into the shortcut pile here, and it would include

1)PFT
2)buddie walks in a resume... (for the record ,I support this and do it all the time)
3) pencil whipping the log book
4) father was a captain, knows all the right people....
5) affirmative action
6) buy a type rating

these all qualify as shortcuts if we define one as any vehicle which accelerates or propels another pilot into a position ahead of one who is and has taken conventional means to their career
(i.e. flight instruct, part 135 freight/pax, regional, major. we'll include fractional here as well.

there you have it, bobby! my case for the point made.

as far as the double standard, a system that uses minimums qualifications as benchmarks , then picks up low timers and PFTrs' to hold down training costs is a double standard. hiring female who'll never upgrade because they can't is a double standard.

the good ol boy network ,although alive and well, still excludes otherwise more qualified applicants.

Have you ever had a freind remark...."there is no rhyme or reason" for the interview result that either failed to produce a job or gave one to a friend....

these are companies pursuing business in the same way many other ones do in corporate america....if you have the gold you make the rules....


that's all I can offer for my case.... your witness. if you defeat my shortcut theory...I'm toast

 

[bobbysamd]

Shortcuts v. shortcuts

Originally posted by climbhappy
the corellation is as follows: to be hired ahead of anyone for any reason is to bring to light the argument of qualifications versus shortcuts

Now that you put it that way, we agree more than we disagree.

Let's define "cutting ahead in line." I regard cutting-ahead primarily as someone less qualified than you using a shortcut to get ahead of you. So, let's analyze each of your shortcuts and put them on an odious v. benign v. "sigh" scale; the latter being throwing your hands up in the air, asking what can you do, and heaving a sigh.

1)PFT

Highest on the odious scale. Used primarily by the 500-hour wonders who whine that they don't wanna be flight instructors, etc.

2)buddie walks in a resume... (for the record ,I support this and do it all the time)

I never saw that that many people walking-in resumes of unqualified friends. There's no money changing hands, no moral or ethical issues. Benign, but more on the "sigh" scale for those who have no one who can walk in a resume for them. In other words, it's not quite fair and sucks if you don't know anyone who can help you. On the other hand, I had four regional airline interviews and was invited to one cattle call without knowing anyone at any of these places.

3) pencil whipping the log book

I think we know where that one belongs.

4) father was a captain, knows all the right people....

Definitely a "sigh." If I had succeeded, became captain, and encountered a new FO who employed that method, my reaction to that person would be icy, at best. And so would most people's.

5) affirmative action.

That is institutionalizing reverse discrimination. Unless you can get Congress to change the law and/or the Supreme Court to rule against affirmative action or favoritism (there is a case now before the Court that deals with favoritism in certain University of Michigan admissions procedures), there's nothing you can do but "sigh." You can also read one of the first Supreme Court cases to deal with reverse discrimination, University of California Regents v. Bakke, 438 U.S. 265 (1978).

Finally,

6) buy a type rating

I don't feel that buying a type rating gives that much of an advantage and really lets one cut in line, unless one already has time in type. If you're driving at the SW B737 type requirement, after reading this board for nearly two years I've gathered that most people aren't bothered especially by that requirement. I'm not. If you want to play ball with Herb, you have to play by his rules. Moreover, you cannot really call it P-F-T because the type is yours. It is on your pilot certificate. You can shop it to anyone who requires a B737 type rating.

as far as the double standard, a system that uses minimums qualifications as benchmarks , then picks up low timers and PFTrs' to hold down training costs is a double standard. hiring female who'll never upgrade because they can't is a double standard.

Agreed on both points, but you shouldn't single out females.

if you have the gold you make the rules....

I see that you, too, have learned The Golden Rule.

Good discussion.

 

[T-Gates]

Nicely Put. But, My point about the furloughees is that some of the folks that would be getting the job at Pinnacle, for example, are not able to b/c of pfters.

I agree with you that, what is done is done and you cant change anything. I am glad that you see who you did and did not effect. I would just like to educate those who are considering it about the pros and cons of it all. Thanks for your input.

No Problem. Not many give the opinion from the "other side" of the fence. (PFT'ing) Which is what I try to do.

--03M

 

[BankAccount=0$]

Not to get too far off the topic here, but after reading these boards for awhile it seems that no matter where one may go to work somebody is going to have bad things to say about it. I'm currently looking for a job....just like 10,000 other guys as qualified or more qualified than myself. So far I've found out that if I went to GulfScream I'm forever branded as a PFT scumbag...... If I go to Mesa I'm whoring myself out for working for a company who's pilots signed a contract that may not have been the cat's meow of all agreements.......I could always buy my time in a turbine from somebody like Eagle Jet Intl. for a boatload of cash, but then I would be displacing a qualified pilot from being hired into that seat right??........ I think the biggest problem with the whole industry is that not enough people tell it like it is when asked about the biz. I'm still teaching, and some of my students come up to me with stars in their eyes and tell me they want to be an airline pilot. I don't try and sugarcoat the way the airline biz works, instead I tell them to go out and buy a copy of Pete Fusco's book "Moondogs Academy of the Air and other Disasters" If after reading the book they still want to go ahead with it then they really can't say they haven't been properly warned.
In the end I guess it doesn't really matter to me what route you choose to get to your dream job, but you have to make your choices very carefully. In my opinion you can buy a job or flight time in just about anything under the sun. But you can never buy the respect of your fellow pilots, and in the end that's all that should really matter..........
TJ

 

[d.fitz]

BankAccount=0$........

Good post!

I saw your signature. Do you still think after all this that a flyin job is better than a non-flyin job?

I am on the extended CFI route with a little corporate experience on the side - recently layed-off. Now I am starting to get the fleeting glimpses of "I wonder if my old career still sucks - the money was sure great!".... knowing that there are 15,000 resumes at every airline right now... back to renting a multi tomorrow for currency...

That might be a topic for a new post however.....

Anyone want to weigh in on that?

Blue Skies...

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Apply at Mesa. You probably can skip the whole Pay For Training thing, get into the right seat of a Jet and look for upgrade in about two years.

Contact Lori Clark over there. 888-634-6372, press 0 and ask the operator to direct your call.

Good luck.