Gulfstream First Officer Program

[Apache54]

PFT - not really the issue!

I think PFT is an issue that each individual has to deal with on their own. I regret that there seems to be great anymosity in the aviation industry right now, because other fields, a great number of other fields require you to have certain qualifications to apply - And if they don't require it, than it seems plainly simple to me that it is in your own best interest to become "best qualified". I am sorry that some people can't afford to "buy" a job. I can't either, and mom and dad are not an option, except for a good meal on the way.

So, in my eyes, dealing with PFT is a "caution" I would have to deal with. I am by no means decided on GIA or FSI/ASA or any other PFT program and I'm actively researching 135 or freight type stuff to build my multi-time. But I surely won't rule out a PFT program primarily due to one's anymosity towards the fact that I can obtain a stuent loan and have the VA pay 60% back. I agree that that may seem harsh - I'm not crossing a picket line. I am not settling for a job and pay that is substandard which in turn undermines the industry. If the GIA or FSI's ASA program, or any other PFT program is unsafe, then the FAA needs to get involved and change the fact that 135 mins are higher than 121 as far as flying experience and investigate these programs. But since the programs are either graduating fair enough pilots or weeding the poorer ones out - they are working as advertised... A cheap way for a company to obtain the skilled labor they require... This sucks, I agree... But I am supposed to start out towing a banner in a 172 for virtually nothing in pay or should I risk pissing off a few people that are neither paying my bills or feeding my family?

I'll continue to network and look for multi jobs that pay me to learn and earn. But I am still way too unclear as to the anymosity towards a PFT'er. I'm not looking for a fight - I just really want to better understand this PFT gripe. Every industry out there deals with this and people either put up the $$$ for what's necessary or settle for less of a job. I might not put up the money in this case because it may be allowing a company to keep students in full time slots - not because it may give me an "unfair" advantage!

Fly safe and keep the dirty side down, mostly!

 

[100LL... Again!]

Apache-

I would not criticize you for doing the GIA thing, even though I think you deserve better.

You paid your dues in the military, right? It is the Zero-time to FO wanna-bes that are worthy of the criticism.

I think you can get to the regionals without spending a fortune.

 

[B190Captain]

Re: B190Captain:

I didn't mean that all the GIA captains I've talked to thought that way. Just several I talked to a few months ago. About 2-3 months ago I was at the training center at FXE and talked to a few captains that were in recurrent. They asked a bunch of questions about Pinnacle and I told them everything you mentioned about no pay, no pass privelages, etc while in training. While that bothered them, there were about 4 or 5 of them that had the attitude I mentioned in my previous post. They cared more about having to sit right seat in an RJ than the no pay during training.

I do think it is quite possible that it will be longer than 5 years before the majors start hiring in any significant numbers. NWA just announced last week that they would like concessions and over 300 more furloughes. Delta will probably be the first to start hiring again, but even General Lee says it will be around 3-4 years before they would be looking to hire anyone, and he's pretty optimistic. The chances that you will be able to go straight to a major from GIA within the next 5 years are almost nonexistent.

P.S. Thanks for the good wishes on our next contract. It's a long way off though. (spring of '05 is amend date)

I am aware of that the majors are in too deep sh*t right now to begin to hire. But there are other viable alternatives that will come around within the next 5 years.

Fly Safe!!

 

[bobbysamd]

I've never met a P-F-T debate I didn't like

Apologies to Will Rogers.

I But I am still way too unclear as to the anymosity towards a PFT'er.

I'll try to put it in different terms. While I'm not privy to all of the inner workings of the military grade/rank promotion system, I will riddle you this question. How would you like it if a person of equal grade to you but junior in terms of date of grade was jumped ahead of you for the next higher grade? You had worked hard to get where you are. Perhaps the other person did - or maybe not. Or maybe that person had a mentor. Wouldn't you be at least a little upset that someone was jumped ahead of you? In other words, this other person cut in line ahead of you on the promotions list. You wouldn't find that to be fair, I am sure. That is at the heart of P-F-T.

All the other reasons, such as how it degrades pilots, and how so many P-F-T programs could be fraudulent, are also vital to the P-F-T debate.

Once more, as stated above several times, you deserve better than to have to pay for a job. I realize that it is a means to an end for you because you do not have fixed-wing experience. Sometimes, the end does not always justify the means. Once again, I sincerely urge you to network with other aviators in your unit. Most certainly someone must know of good fixed-wing transition programs for Army helo pilots.

Lots of luck to the unionized Gulfstream pilots trying to deal with anti-union Mr. Cooper.

 

[bobbysamd]

Two-prong P-F-T test - rebuttal

Originally posted by Jim
Lets take boobyamd's PFT test: I would say that under his criteria GIA is not PFT.

1. The money is not a condition of employment because the pilot is not guaranteed a permenant job. He is only guaranteed 250 hours of B1900 time as a SIC. Further, it is possible to be hired at GIA without PFTing - as either a FO or CA.

2. The training received can be used else where. There are plenty of B1900 outfits that love pilots with B1900 time. Plus the 121 and CRM training spices up anyone's resume. It's quality time, as proven by the number of GIA grads that have gone on to better regionals, national and majors.

1. The P-F-T applicant has paid for the training as a condition of employment. No payment, no training, therefore, no employment. He/she is receiving compensation for his FO duties. It says so on the Gulfstream literature. Therefore, it is a job. I assume that Gulfstream deducts payroll and Social Security taxes from his/her paycheck. It may not be a permanent position, but it is a temporary position. It is, by all definitions, a job.

2. We're talking about tangible credentials that are recognized throughout the business. The training received and paid for would be for how Gulfstream does business with its Beech 1900s. It does not result in a rating. Other companies may do business in their 1900s differently. To the best of my knowlege, no FO earns anything like a FlightSafety or Simuflight card, which would be a marketable credential. It is company-specific training. The FO paid for his/her time, and that is plain. For that reason, the value of that time may be doubtful. Therefore, the 1900 operators of which you speak may discount the experience. If operators place greater value on 1900 time earned in a non-P-F-T environment, the value of the Gulfstream time has been severely discounted.

If it is true that a non-P-F-T'er can be hired as a Gulfstream FO, that adds further insult to injury. In other words, to borrow from a well-know expression, why should one pay for it when he can get it for free? I realize that Gulfstream hires street captains.

 

[46Driver]

Bobbysamd,
Just a couple of quick points:
1) It is not uncommon for seniority (i.e. rank) to be substantially changed following promotion boards. (Someone junior gets promoted while you do not and thus he becomes your superior - a famous example is the relationship between Patton and Bradley) Also, a lower ranking officer can be in a command billet over others who are linearly senior. It is a very competitive and fluid situation which rewards initiative and hustle unlike a union's seniority list which is forever frozen.
2) Unlike the naval services, it is extremely difficult to get fixed wing time in the army - literally hundreds if not thousands of requests for a limited number of billets - with the decision of who gets them being made by HQ.

 

[CRJ puppy]

5 days ago I wrote:

"Oh man...

Brace yourself for the stream of negative comments that will follow! You opened up a serious can-o-worms!"


Do you believe me now Apache54?

Bet you never suspected your request would get so much attention.

Good luck at whatever you decide to do!

Blue skies...

 

[T-Gates]

Good Discussion

I have to really say that this has been one of the better more informative threads about the pros/cons of PFT. Everyone here has made good points. As stated above and in many past posts no two sides will ever agree on the issue at hand. I've said it once and I'll say it agin. PFT is a choice, if you don't like it don't do it or support it! Thats fine. In this industry, no matter what you do, you will always rub someone the wrong way. That's just how it is.

Last week I was up front in an American 757 in LAX talking during a long gate-delay. They were overly nice and then they asked me about GIA. I told them that it worked for me and I was happy with the results. Then they asked if I regretted PFT'ing. I said no. It got me where I am now and I am very happy with the postion I am in. It turns out that the Captain wants to send his kid to GIA and the F/O's brother paid at CoEx in 98'. All the friends that pointed me in the direction of GIA were airline captains whith 20+ years seniority. All of the people that guided me away from GIA were 1200 hour CFI's or junior F/O's at a regional. I took the experience factor into play and chose to go to GIA.

Alot of people throw names around to make thier arguments sound more viscious. Like SCUMBAG and SCAB. In fact some recruiter at Comair Academy is telling everyone that if you attend GIA you will be labled as a SCAB and blacklisted. When I called him up, he had no idea as to the meaning of the term and retracted all of his statements. Turns out he is a 300 hour student working on his CFI. That is someone who has no buisness caling names. I respect the opinions of people like Bobby and others who have paid thier dues and want to council others. But I do not respect anyone who is uneducated and likes to throw around names. All that shows is complete unprofessionalism on thier part.

Just my .02

--03M

 

[bobbysamd]

Military promotions

Bobbysamd,
Just a couple of quick points:
1) It is not uncommon for seniority (i.e. rank) to be substantially changed following promotion boards. (Someone junior gets promoted while you do not and thus he becomes your superior - a famous example is the relationship between Patton and Bradley) Also, a lower ranking officer can be in a command billet over others who are linearly senior. It is a very competitive and fluid situation which rewards initiative and hustle unlike a union's seniority list which is forever frozen.
2) Unlike the naval services, it is extremely difficult to get fixed wing time in the army - literally hundreds if not thousands of requests for a limited number of billets - with the decision of who gets them being made by HQ.

Thanks for the clarifications. I also understand that if you're passed over for promotion twice you have to separate or retire, even though you may love the service and want to stay.

I realize that C-12 gigs are hard to get, but it was a thought I had for Apache instead of P-F-T. What about the OV-10 program? Or T-41s (I realize that would be 172 time, but it would be fixed-wing)?

I've run into majors pilots who do not approve of P-F-T. I would submit that there are legions of majors pilots who have no clue about the aviation world outside of their niche. They hear "121 time" when asked about Gulfstream P-F-T and encourage a would-be aspirant to go for it. Not considering, again, that the end does not justify the means. They have credibility because they are flying for the majors. Just because they fly for the majors doesn't mean they are omniscient.

As always, just my 2¢ opinions based on my experiences and perceptions. Your mileage may vary.

 

[46Driver]

Bobbysamd,
You are correct - passed over twice and you either have to retire or separate - end of career. Strange thing is if you are passed over and have to separate, you get a severance check - you resign and get nothin'.... Also, you can be passed over on active duty, go to the reserves, get promoted, and then possibly return to active duty (as you can imagine, its anything goes in the reserves right now).
If you are in the Navy or Marines, you have a reasonable chance of being a T-34C instructor or flying C-12's (I think the C-12' are being phased out in favor of Gulfstreams). Army aviation training is different in the fact that students start directly in helos (naval students start in airplanes and then select jets, props, or helos) - thus there are no fixed wing instructor slots. Hope this helps clear things up.
One distinct possibility is going to an Air Force or ANG unit and flying fixed wing there - you get fixed wing time and more reserve retirement points. There are plenty of Air Force types on this board who can expound upon this better than me (or is it I??).

Fly Safe.

 

[Apache54]

Army and Fixed wing...

46 Driver is correct that the army is really the wrong place to look for a fixed wing slot. We call it the fixed wing multi engine qual course and its done by FSI on contract. Although slots have doubled in the past year, I'm not buying into the 5 year active duty contract just to take the course with NO guarantee that I will actually fly a C-12 afterwards... Hell, they are not letting gun guys go to the course and fly C-12s much nowadays.

Right now I'm looking at the freight - 135 arena to build time. I'll have the IFR 135 mins met and maybe I'll check out AirNet and some others (Will save that question for another day). I still think that PFT in the regional community is seen worse than it would be seen in most other job markets and I can appreciate that. I'm glad uncle sugar won't let me go for another 11 months (not including any playtime in the sandbox) so I can continue to evaluate the atmosphere.... And hopefully all you guys move up since it seems they (majors) might have staved off the bleeding and may begin to recall, and interview again.

To all - thanx for the input and the professionalism (I've seen some heli boards that are simply crazy).

Keep the dirty side down, mostly!

 

[bobbysamd]

Alternatives to P-F-T

Right now I'm looking at the freight - 135 arena to build time. I'll have the IFR 135 mins met and maybe I'll check out AirNet and some others (Will save that question for another day) . . ..

Now, those are ideas!!

Best of luck with your plans.

 

[bobbysamd]

I respect the opinions of people like Bobby and others who have paid thier dues and want to council others . . . .

Thanks for your comments, my friend.

The Comair recruiter's comments and "actions" which you wrote about in your post are appalling. As hard as I would dissuade people from going to Gulfstream, that person's actions are out of line. I also had no idea that Comair uses students as salespeople.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Its interesting to come back to this thread a few days later and see whats transpired.

To apache,

I'm glad to see that you will seek other things before making a decision. It can be done. Here at PSA we have quite a few Helo guys that flew charter for a year and then came here. But like I said in an earlier post you may find the charter pay and life style alot nicer. Give it a shot at least.


To N9103M,

You said, "But I do not respect anyone who is uneducated and likes to throw around names. All that shows is complete unprofessionalism on thier part. "

It's funny that the very person who PFT'd and help Mgt. in destroying an entry level job is the one who will turn around and call the one who "didn't" PFT uneducated and unprofessional.

To Jim,

You Said, "BTW, I did not PFT. I don't care how a pilot builds his hours as long as he is competent. It's just that I get really tired of seeing pilot's bashed for taking a different path. If you don't want to PFT, that's your right. If another chooses to PFT, that's his right. Get over it. "

When you care about where the industry is going and there are programs that make these entry level jobs go away, how are you just supposed to "Get Over It"? The jobs that GIA sells could be given to one of the THOUSANDS that are currently furloughed. Would you look them in the face and say get over it? I would rather try to deter as many people as I could from buying their job and maybe someday that 1900 job could be given to somone who deserves it and at the same time sending a message to Mgt that pilots will not be taken advantage of any longer.

To 46driver,

You Said, "and that comment about calling veterans SCUMBAGS is WAY out of line. "

I never called a veteran a scumbag. But in my "OPINION" anyone who PFT'd and helped to eliminate these entry level jobs is a scumbag. If that person happens to be a veteran, oh well. I'm a veteran(worker not a flyer) and after separation managed to continue to do the right thing. Why should anyone else be different. If I had crossed a picket line would I not also be a SCAB. Same differance.

bobby,

What can I say except that you have a great sence of "Tact"(sp). All your posts were very good. Even the PFT'ers like you.

 

[wil]

PCL_128- Your against RJDC because, in your opinion, it hurts our position at the regionals? And, then you admit working for that scumbag company gulfstream? (no caps on purpose). I can't call any company an "Airline" that sells the right seat. And, for B190"Captain" even if you didn't pay- your tarred with the same brush. It is not a matter of "if" your time at gulfstream will hinder your career- only when. If the check clears, fly safe-

 

[bobbysamd]

bobby,

What can I say except that you have a great sence of "Tact"(sp). All your posts were very good. Even the PFT'ers like you.

Thank you. Isn't tact a part of CRM?

But make no mistake about it. I loathe P-F-T as an institution, which should be clear for all reasons I've stated in this discussion and elsewhere. And I would not have reacted positively had I learned that the guy/gal in the other seat with whom I would be flying that month had P-F-T'd or if I were sitting on a hiring board and determined that the applicant before me had P-F-T'd.

I don't like those who cut in line for anything or for any reason. I like to believe that my arguments against P-F-T speak for themselves. Name-calling serves no purpose.

I didn't know until this discussion that Gulfstream pilots had unionized. Considering who founded that "airline," the irony of that is pretty rich.

Once more, I always love a good P-F-T discussion. Count me in for the next one.

 

[duksrule]

Re: Job theft by P-F-T

So, then, what is the PFTer doing when he/she pays Gulfstream $53,994 or a certificated Commercial pilot pays $23,940? I will tell you. He/she is using the power of the checkbook to get a job that ordinarily would be obtained and held by a more experienced pilot. The checkbook enabled this less-experienced person to ace out the better-qualified person.

I agree that no one is owed a job. No one is owed anything. But cutting in line ahead of others by virtue of money is not playing by the rules. Although most of these folks get their 250 hours at Gulfstream and leave, their crew position is still required by the regs. It's still a job. Not only is it wrong to pay for a job, in any business, it is wrong to eliminate others from the same opportunity because they cannot or will not pay for a job. I understand that Gulfstream does not hire FOs off the street and that P-F-T is the only route to an FO "job" there. I also realize that other regionals are non-P-F-T. Just the same, it is still a job.
I never heard of such a thing until I entered aviation. P-F-T is outrageous.

I realize we have traveled this road many, many times before. But this comment had to be addressed.

But it is OK for a less experienced pilot to jump to the head of the line because he just happened to know someone who could walk in his resume and get him preferential treatment? I think that both are 2 different roads to get to the same place. The interview and hopefully the job. Just look at my post about PFT v/s The Bubba network. Just because someone knows somebody who can walk in their resume doesn't magically make them a better pilot. Just as PFT doesn't make you a great pilot. Both just get you to the interview.
Now if someone paid to go to college and get a degree then was hired over someone without a degree, would the college guy be accused of PFT? Where is the cutoff for hating someone who is able or willing to pay to get ahead?
I would think that the F/O time even though you are paying for it would be a valuable asset. It is showing your potential future employer that you are able to fly in a structured environment and you are able to do the duties as a F/O. Yes that airline might do it a little differently but you have already proved that you can hold the seat they would be hiring you for. It is not like someone is writing a check to GIA and then suddenly they are a 747 captain. If I were an interviewer and was looking at a CFI and also a guy who was a paid F/O I would take the F/O because he has the experience and has proven he can do it.
I am currently in the military and am a Non-Flying Officer. Well I will be retiring in a few years and will be looking for the fastest way into the game. At 37 I will not have the luxury of pounding out 5 years as a CFI so I may very well go to a place where I can make up for lost time. For that matter how is 250 hours setting next to a student in a C-172 some how better than 250 hours as SIC on a Turbo Prop Aircraft?
Oh and for Bobby's example of being pissed if an officer was promoted ahead of you because he paid for it, how about this. In the Navy we have what is called "Direct Commission Officers" these are normally the JAG and Medical Corps officers. Most of them are brought into the military at 0-3 and some like my roommate here on the ship are even higher, depending on their credentials. So I guess my roommate is a "scumbag" because he and his family spent the money for him to go to school and become an Oral Surgeon and now with only one year in the Navy he is an 0-4. I guess I will beat him to death for doing PFT in the Navy. I know right now you are saying that is different. Well how is it different. He is taking an 0-4 billet that could be held by an 0-3 who has been in for X years but since he paid for school to get ahead he got the job. Bottom line is that if you can PFT you are no different than someone else who paid for some form of higher education to make yourself more marketable to a perspective employer.

 

[PilotRon]

Shortcuts are just that.

Anyone who has flown with a low time pilot knows that regardless how someone gets 250 hours they will still fly like a 250 hour pilot.
Nothing beats experience. That is why when you finally get hired by an airline, or another reputable company it feels good. You have worked hard to get to that point. Most pilots work for 1500+ hours to get to that point in their career and we all know that just takes time. But along with that time comes valuable experience.
I myself was never a flight instructor, but i still had to work hard to get my time in. I ferried aircraft all over the US and Canada, flew skydivers, and any other job i could find just to get to the point where i would be acceptable for interview.
Was it worth it? You bet it was. I just got hired by Chautauqua and begin training very soon. I now have the feeling of pride that makes it all worth while.

To sum this up. Nothing is free. You work hard and long to be "Master" of your aircraft. 250 hours will not make you master of anything. Work hard, the payoff will be worth it.

 

[bobbysamd]

Apples v. Oranges

Originally posted by duksrule
Now if someone paid to go to college and get a degree then was hired over someone without a degree, would the college guy be accused of PFT?. Where is the cutoff for hating someone who is able or willing to pay to get ahead?

Some jobs, like physician or attorney, require a college education. It depends on the job, doesn't it? At one time people who wanted to become lawyers could read law, take the bar exam, serve under a practicing attorney, and become an attorney without going to law school. That's no longer possible.

I would think that the F/O time even though you are paying for it would be a valuable asset. It is showing your potential future employer that you are able to fly in a structured environment and you are able to do the duties as a F/O. Yes that airline might do it a little differently but you have already proved that you can hold the seat they would be hiring you for.

You're missing the point. The point is those who've acquired the FO time in question paid for training, meaning that they paid for a job. In other words, these "jobs" were available only to those with $24K, assuming a Commercial certificate. That's bad policy. Moreover, for most people, that kind of money does not grow on trees. Using finances as a form of institutionalized discrimination is wrong in every way.

If I were an interviewer and was looking at a CFI and also a guy who was a paid F/O I would take the F/O because he has the experience and has proven he can do it.

The "FO" was "paid" only because he/she paid. Anyone with money can pay. And it was for only 250 hours, with much of that time bound to be a learning curve. That is really very little experience, if you consider it. Only three months' worth, flying at 80 hours a month.

Oh and for Bobby's example of being pissed if an officer was promoted ahead of you because he paid for it, how about this. In the Navy we have what is called "Direct Commission Officers" these are normally the JAG and Medical Corps officers. Most of them are brought into the military at 0-3 and some like my roommate here on the ship are even higher, depending on their credentials. So I guess my roommate is a "scumbag" because he and his family spent the money for him to go to school and become an Oral Surgeon and now with only one year in the Navy he is an 0-4.

Is your D.D.S. roommate a line officer or a staff officer? I suspect the latter. Your roommate did not join the Navy to earn a command. The Navy recruited him for a specific purpose, which was not to hold a combat command or to fire the big guns or cruise missiles at Mr. Hussein. I would doubt the Navy will send your roommate to Command and Staff College. Now, I suspect that you probably went to college and ROTC, or OCS, or the Academy. You are probably a line officer. You cannot compare yourself to your roommate. Ergo, there is no P-F-T comparison.

Bottom line is that if you can PFT you are no different than someone else who paid for some form of higher education to make yourself more marketable to a perspective employer.

All of these points are apple-and-orange comparisons. There's a difference between paying for education and paying an employer for job. The difference should be apparent.

And it is also unfair that a less-experienced pilot can cut ahead of line of the more-experienced and better-qualified because of connections. Not everyone has a dad who is Chief Pilot or is the Chief Pilot's neighbor or lodge brother. It is a somewhat different matter if a connection gives an advantage to someone who is qualified. In an ideal world, connections should not matter. But the world is not ideal.

 

[46Driver]

If I remember correctly, in the Marine Corps, the lawyers are unrestricted line officers (we rely upon the Navy for our medical services.)
The other point I want to emphasize (which pertains to Apache) are the required qualifications which vary both according to the company and the job market. When I went and applied for a job: American Eagle, Mesa, even AirNet wadded up my application and threw them in the trash because the majority of my time was in helos. (Northwest Airlink offerred me a job but because I was a helo pilot, they said I had to PFT - UNLIKE anybody else in my interview class.) Yet, Comair, ASA, and ACA interviewed me and I ended up in the glass cockpit, VERRRYYY fast accelerating Dornier 328 Jet... So qualifications appear to more subjective than objective.
In any event, good luck to all. The boards over on PPruNe.org are more entertaining (AND I HAVE YET TO SEE ANY THREADS OVER THERE ON DELTA, COMAIR, AND THE RJDC!!!!!!!!!).