Gulfstream First Officer Program

[100LL... Again!]

PFT? I say let 'em go ahead and do it...

But they should be prepared to bear the consequences, such as a lot of other pilots thinking that they are marginally skilled wanna-bes.

Sorry, guys!

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

PFT? I say let 'em go ahead and do it...

Is that anything like Marie Antoinette saying, "let them eat cake"?

But they should be prepared to bear the consequences, such as a lot of other pilots thinking that they are marginally skilled wanna-bes.

Or but for P-F-T they wouldn't have been hired.

That was one reason why I refused to consider P-F-T. I wanted it known that I would have been hired on my quals and experience, and that I was worthy of the job.

 

[Publishers]

Bobby

Bobby, upiu know I respect your opinion and ethic, however, it did not really work for you if I read your posts correctly.

While it is great rhetoric to say one would be hired on qualifications and experience, the fact is that there are a ton of people hired everyday because they have a silver bullet or know someone, right place at right time, etc..

One of the reasons that I have never been harsh on Gulfstream is that I do not believe that most people are doing anything they can to get the job. They wish they had the inside track or knew someone or etc.

 

[aviatrix]

Re: Job theft by P-F-T

I agree that no one is owed a job. No one is owed anything. But cutting in line ahead of others by virtue of money is not playing by the rules. Although most of these folks get their 250 hours at Gulfstream and leave, their crew position is still required by the regs. It's still a job. Not only is it wrong to pay for a job, in any business, it is wrong to eliminate others from the same opportunity because they cannot or will not pay for a job. I understand that Gulfstream does not hire FOs off the street and that P-F-T is the only route to an FO "job" there. I also realize that other regionals are non-P-F-T. Just the same, it is still a job.

Exactly! And to expand upon it even more, in today's market of pilot over-abundance, and airline management wanting to slash wages, the scores of F/O wanna-be's (and yes, I do believe that is what GIA Commerical pilots are at that point) who pony up that astronomical amount of cash for some 1900 time operating under a part 121 certificate just lends ammunition to airline management who use it as leverage against their pilot groups!
They are well aware that if their pilot force doesn't accept the recent marginal contract, or worse, accept wage concessions, that there are 1000's of other pilots who would gladly have their jobs!
This industry did not use to be this cut-throat, and things are changing little by little, and not in the favor of the pilots!
PFT is just something that we hope others will avoid simply by their own scruples and will-power! One who engages in PFT programs may not necessarily be a sub-standard pilot, and they may not be an outstanding one either. It just says something about the person who is willing to take that route! And I hope that in the long run it comes back to haunt them later, possibly at their first real airline job interview!
Just my 2 cents!

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream P-F-T v. it's not what you know, it's who you know

Bobby, upiu know I respect your opinion and ethic, however, it did not really work for you if I read your posts correctly.

Thanks, Pub.

It clearly did not work out, though I believe that institutional prejudices impinged upon my chances, as I have written prolifically elsewhere. In any event, as I wrote above, I could not have stood myself for having bought a job. Anyone can buy a job, despite all the fancy platitudes about having to meet "strict" qualifications. Let's be real. The only "qual" needed was a bank account (or Dad's bank account) of sufficient size. During my era of the early '90s, P-F-T soon became about the only way to gain access to commuter flying.

I would also mention that I did have interviews at non P-F-T regionals. So, either I was brought in to meet a quota, which I suspect to be the case, and/or I was considered to be qualified. Assuming for argument's sake the latter, P-F-T as my only chance was insulting and degrading. In other words, I was already considered to be qualified on paper without needing P-F-T or other help.

While it is great rhetoric to say one would be hired on qualifications and experience, the fact is that there are a ton of people hired everyday because they have a silver bullet or know someone, right place at right time, etc..

Of course. Although sometimes you do not have an inside contact, or a bud who can walk in a resume. Sometimes, the only way is to apply off the street. In a way, not having that contact tilts the playing field to your disadvantage, however . . . .

One of the reasons that I have never been harsh on Gulfstream is that I do not believe that most people are doing anything they can to get the job. They wish they had the inside track or knew someone or etc.

But that's my point. Some people are better networkers than others. I see no harm or ethical penalty in networking, save for the classic "dad who is neighbor with the chief pilot" which lets an otherwise-unqualified pilot cut in line ahead of the qualified. I know few people who would not resent such a connection. Otherwise, networking does not involve the exchange of money for a job. But Gulfstream P-F-T does. By power of the buck the playing field is not only tilted, it has been turned vertical. That is wrong.

 

[Apache54]

What is PFT then???

To all, thanks for the input.

From the outside, it is abundantly clear that PFT is a major issue that permeates at the moral level, ie, it is really how I look at myself say if I go that route.

My question becomes this then... What does one say about an applicant from a regional without a 737 type going for an interview at SWA against a regional guy with a home bought 737 type? SWA will clearly place the typed guy above the non-typed any day of the week. Is this not PFT? The line becomes very gray to an outsider looking in and is pretty tough to then say "what is PFT?; how much PFT is ok?; why not PFT if it buys me a job?".

Now, I caveat the above question with this... I do agree that not hiring permanent FO's and relying on "students" of the FO program is not kosher. Would it then be "morally palatable" if the FO program guys flew on standby? I guess some, right off the bat would say "NO" and that the "student" is still holding a slot that a permanent hire should have? However, this world and most specifically, our economic system is built on having winners and losers... the haves and have-nots. Is it wrong to allow day laborers? Without them, our California broccoli would cost a lot more. Imagine our produce costs if all those guys were union. There's a reason that our trade deficit is so large - US labor is costly.

So I ask is it wrong for people to try to advance themselves by buying a job? Prior to joining the army to fly, I was a paramedic with NYC*EMS (and a staunch supporter of my union, Local 1199). I could've had the city pay for the training and pay me to go to the training, but that civil service list was over 2 years long... So I went to a college and got my medic on my own and applied and got hired in months. Was I bad? A scumbag?

I know some might think my mind is made up. It surely isn't and I would definitely prefer to work and let someone else pay me to learn and to build time.

Sorry for the book. I appreciate all the insight from the different angles. Besides... Things are getting real busy in my business and you all will be Captains in the majors, leaving me free to get right into an RJ by the time I can get out.

Fly safe

 

[Pilot877]

Using personal money to gain an advantage in the job market has been around as long as capitalism. The alternative is communism.

I agree with you that PFT is not good, but calling someone else a "scumbag" because they choose to take advantage of it doesn't show much class. People should accept responsibility for their own career instead of trying to blame others.

I did not call anybody a "scumbag" or any other names, and I have no complaints about my career at all.

However, there are those pilots out there who are frustrated with other pilots whoring themselves out (even though we all do on some level in this business), and feel that the practice of PFT cheapens the industry. Those pilots may sometimes vent their frustration here, since it is such a heated topic. A person who is offended by mud-slinging should probably refrain from reading any GIA thread.

We all take personal responsibility for our respective careers, I haven't read any post on this thread where somebody writes something like "I dont have an RJ job because of GIA."
Their First Officer program degrades the profession as a whole.

 

[Capt RJ]

Apache 54

I don't have a comment one way or another in regards to PFT, other than it is an individual choice. A 737 ( home paid ) type rating is a different story all together. SWA once again requires a 737 type rating just to apply for an F.O. position. Then again I can't go anywhere that I'm aware of and fly a 737 for 250 hrs and be guaranteed a interview- I probally would if it were available.

 

[Checks]

Apache,

Sounds like your mind is made up. Every month I see this Vince fellow in an ad for Gulfstream. He went from 0 hrs to CRJ FO in about 18months. Cant argue with those kind of results. Personally, I have never, and will never, buy a job or right seat time somewhere. Intergrity and the desire to see the aviation field improve motivate me to take the long hard road.

Maybe some of us are just fools. Actually, I know we are fools but I still would suggest NOT going to Gulfstream.

Be part of the solution NOT part of the problem.

 

[bobbysamd]

What is PFT then???

Originally posted by Apache54
Prior to joining the army to fly, I was a paramedic with NYC*EMS (and a staunch supporter of my union, Local 1199). I could've had the city pay for the training and pay me to go to the training, but that civil service list was over 2 years long... So I went to a college and got my medic on my own and applied and got hired in months. Was I bad? A scumbag?

Of course not. Compare going to school for EMT training to going to a career school to learn how to be a medical assistant. Sure, you could hope to be hired at a medical office and be trained, but they want qualified people. What you did is no different than someone going to a flight school or FBO and obtaining initial certificates and ratings.

I am sure that most people will agree that whether something is P-F-T is determined by a two-prong test: (1) Does money have to be exchanged from applicant to employer as a condition of employment of applicant by employer, and (2) Is the training received applicable only to that company or can it be used elsewhere. If the answers are "yes" to both than the program is P-F-T. Therefore, although plenty of people gripe about SWA's 737 type requirement, you cannot call it P-F-T. The 737 type you obtain to be competitive at SWA can be marketed to other 737 operators. Perhaps that requirement is worthy of criticism, but if you want to play with Herb's ball you have to play by his rules.

I appreciate Pilot877's name-calling comments. The frustration many feel about P-F-T is palpable. The name-calling is unnecessary.

 

[BoredToDeath]

I have flown with several former GIA FO's at my company, and all of them were professional and competent. That doesn't mean I endorse their PFT program; I think there are better and cheaper ways to build time, but that doesn't mean that the full-time GIA pilots are any less professional than anyone else.

To be blunt, I think that anyone who calls someone else a derogatory name simply because that person chose another route to the airlines than he did is a sad person who tries to blame others for his own career problems. I preferred to build experience by flying corporate until I had enough time to qualify without PFT, but I have no problem with someone who chooses to work his butt off saving his money for a PFT program. No one owes you a job, and the PFTer is not stealing anyone's job.

Wow, I thought that this thread would be done by now. I'll make this response quick cause I gotta go get tires before the snow really kicks in.

Nindiri,

I actually never said that the GIA pilots who PFT'd were less professional than anyone else, I said they were SCUMBAGS. Please quote me correctly in the future. You can choose not to call someone a derogatory if thats the way you feel. I on the other hand belive that the name fits.

It fits because these PFT'ers are helping management in the process of destroying our payscales. By forking up the money they are telling Mgnt. that, " hey I love to fly soooo much that I'll do anything to do it". I don't know about you or anyone else here but I won't "Do anything" to do this job. I'll do it for MONEY. (that doesn't sound right does it?) Well you know what I mean.

I respect your opinion of me, you think I'm sad and theres probably not much I could say to change your mind about it, but I'll try anywhy. My use of the word SCUMBAG I feel is the only way to get the point across to the ones just starting out in this industry of how bad it is to PFT. Just like the way we use the word SCAB to describe the POS who will cross a pickett line to better their own self interests.

And to address your opinion that I'm only blaming others for my career problems. You could'nt further from the truth. If you read the begining of the thread you'll see that someone asked for an opinion and I gave them one. Is that wrong? No.

I am very happy with my career. I've worked at many companies, flown many types of planes to alot of different places. I do have one regret though. I wish I had stayed in the charter biz, airline flying is really boring, but that has nothing to do with my opinion of PFT programs and the pilots that get suckered into them.

These programs hurt the industry and thats why I'm against them not for any other reason that you or anyone else can come up with.

 

[PCL_128]

Apache54:

As a former GIA student and employee, I have some reservations about the company. However, in your case I would say that the First Officer Program is just what you need. After you finish your 250 hours in the 1900 you will most likely get an interview with Pinnacle (Northwest Airlink). With your experience you will almost certainly get the job unless you say something really stupid. Six or eight months from when you start at GIA you could be training in the CRJ. It would work great for you.

The people on here that blast those that PFT are the minority in this business. They are a very vocal minority, but a minority none the less. As B190Captain said earlier, GIA grads have gone on to jobs at just about every major and regional airline there is. Even CoEx, which is very partial to CFI experience, hired many GIA grads before 9/11. It is highly unlikely that you will ever be denied a job because you went to GIA.

 

[aviatrix]

GIA PFT

The people on here that blast those that PFT are the minority in this business. They are a very vocal minority, but a minority none the less.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, PCL! I do believe they are more like the non-vocal majority! It really depends on what kind of background they've come from. If they've spent a lot of blood, sweat, and tears working their way through the CFI world and then on to cargo flying to build "quality" time, they are going to have a lot of disdain for programs that have 250 hour pilots flying a Part 121 job! It's just not highly regarded by most!

 

[wannab0133]

gia captains

if the gia fo's go to airlink for interviews, where to the gia 1900 captains come from? do they hire them off the street? that would be an interesting route to go. get 2 or 3k hours cfiing/cargo/etc. then get hired by gia as a off the street captain and still have that monkey on your back with out pft. seems like airlink would want the 1900 captains.....

 

[Mayday911]

The only people in this industry that don't despise PFT, are the people that did it. I know of many people that actually did the PFT thing and regret it now!!

You are just trying to justify what you did in your own eyes!!

Mayday

 

[PCL_128]

Re: gia captains

if the gia fo's go to airlink for interviews, where to the gia 1900 captains come from? do they hire them off the street? that would be an interesting route to go. get 2 or 3k hours cfiing/cargo/etc. then get hired by gia as a off the street captain and still have that monkey on your back with out pft. seems like airlink would want the 1900 captains.....

Airlink has taken a few GIA Captains, but very few of them are asking for interviews. I talked to a few of them a couple of months ago, and when I asked them why they didn't want to interview their response was: "I'm a captain. I'm too good to pull gear for some RJ captain." Many of them are still in the mindset of the late 90's when GIA captains were going straight to Delta and United. They refuse to accept that they will have to spend the next 5-10 years at a regional. They think that if they wait a year or two then they will get hired by Airtran or SWA. I guess they haven't seen how long the list of poolies is for SWA.

Since very few captains have been leaving GIA for the last year or so, there hasn't really been an upgrade problem. They have upgraded a few high-time FO's, but upgrades have been almost nonexistent from what I've heard. I doubt they will allow themselves to get into a situation where they will have to hire off-the-street captains. They learned their lesson last time they did that a few years ago. Deciding how to integrate them into the seniority list was one of the most contentious issues when the IBT contract was being worked out last year. If GIA starts to have a shortage of upgradeable FO's, they will just stop offering interviews at Airlink and the FO's will stay at GIA until upgrade. Either way, the FO's get a good deal. They either go fly a CRJ, or they upgrade to captain on the 1900.

My main worry about recommending GIA to low time guys is the possibility that Airlink will stop hiring before they finish their training and 250 hours. If you start at GTA with 0 time, it will take about a year and a half to finish everything including your 250 hours to be eligible for an interview with Airlink. By then, we might not be hiring GIA grads. What would happen to them then? For guys like Apache54 though, he will finish his 250 in 6 months and be off to Airlink. We definitely won't stop hiring guys at Pinnacle anytime this year. The latest estimate is about 200 pilots to be hired this year. Since the NWA furloughees have stopped applying, that leaves mostly GIA grads.

Bottom line is this: GIA is good for some people, but not for all. If you think it will work out for you, don't listen to all this anti-PFT nonsense on here. The guys doing the interviews at the majors don't give a $hit where you got 250 hours of 1900 time. If you mention GIA to most guys at the majors, they won't even know what you're talking about. They don't concern themselves with something so trivial. Just do what is best for you, and don't worry what they people here say about PFT.

 

[46Driver]

I'm going to agree with PCL_128 (its probably snowing in he11 now) and Jim. Most of my buds PFT'ed in the mid to late 90's because they were helo pilots and nobody counted helicopter time. After flying for 10 years in the Corps, to say that "they didn't pay their dues" and that "they are cutting in line" is ridiculous - and that comment about calling veterans SCUMBAGS is WAY out of line. Go to APTAP.org for info and contacts - for every anti-PFT who screams at you, there will be a 2 helo bubbas to walk in your resume. Finally, use the G.I. Bill - no sense spending your money when you can use BoredtoDeath's tax dollars

 

[B190Captain]

Quote by PCL_128:

Airlink has taken a few GIA Captains, but very few of them are asking for interviews. I talked to a few of them a couple of months ago, and when I asked them why they didn't want to interview their response was: "I'm a captain. I'm too good to pull gear for some RJ captain."

What captains have you spoken to? Certainly not me. That's a pretty sad attitude.

The following is why I do not have interest in Pinnacle:

1. No Pay while in training (AFTER HIRED). Correct me if I am wrong but it's around 2 months till your ride?

2. Pinnacle does not pay for ANYTHING while you train such as lodging, transportation, meals and so on.

3. Too big of a paycut to be able to afford to support myself and my family. In my opinion, FO pay is really bad for the first year or even second for that matter. I would guess it would take up to 2 years to upgrade.

4. Bad quality of life I can deal with since I would be junior in seniority but the aforementioned factors on top of that will be too much to bear.

I sincerely have no problem flying with a lesser experienced captain than myself. If I was better compensated, I would most likely enjoy the break from the responsibility of being a captain.

They refuse to accept that they will have to spend the next 5-10 years at a regional. They think that if they wait a year or two then they will get hired by Airtran or SWA. I guess they haven't seen how long the list of poolies is for SWA.

Where are you getting this information from? You actually think it will take that long? I hope most of you guys believe that because if you stay 10 years at a regional, why not stay until retirement? By that time the pay should be good and quality of life too. I hope you do that so I won't have to compete with you for a slot in a major or any other carrier for that matter. (hehe)

Hope future contracts will get you guys the pay you deserve.

Best of luck to all at Pinnacle.

Fly Safe!

 

[PCL_128]

B190Captain:

I didn't mean that all the GIA captains I've talked to thought that way. Just several I talked to a few months ago. About 2-3 months ago I was at the training center at FXE and talked to a few captains that were in recurrent. They asked a bunch of questions about Pinnacle and I told them everything you mentioned about no pay, no pass privelages, etc while in training. While that bothered them, there were about 4 or 5 of them that had the attitude I mentioned in my previous post. They cared more about having to sit right seat in an RJ than the no pay during training.

I do think it is quite possible that it will be longer than 5 years before the majors start hiring in any significant numbers. NWA just announced last week that they would like concessions and over 300 more furloughes. Delta will probably be the first to start hiring again, but even General Lee says it will be around 3-4 years before they would be looking to hire anyone, and he's pretty optimistic. The chances that you will be able to go straight to a major from GIA within the next 5 years are almost nonexistent.

P.S. Thanks for the good wishes on our next contract. It's a long way off though. (spring of '05 is amend date)

 

[100LL... Again!]

There are a small number of pilots who actually posses the necessary knowledge and skills to be a TRUE 121 pilot, athough a green one.

The rest are so green that it will take them 500 hours just to learn how much they DON'T know.

Sad. The days of hiring real pilots for their skills and experince seem to be waning. Good thing for all the automation, though. Keeps them rookies in one piece.