Gulfstream First Officer Program

[climbhappy]

P-F-t

I have flown with former GIA fo's and the ones I have flown with are good. Conversly, i had a few fo's with 4 or 5 hundred in type who came out of a cessna etc, and they were marginal.

I think PILOT RON'S take on it is right. And it seems these places thrive in down job markets.

As for anyone in business playing by the rules these days...forget it.....

 

[whereamI]

Hiring at the Majors

In the past, especially pre 9/11, I can see how interviewers might not be extremely concerned with whether you PFT'd or not. It is my understanding that PFTing could have put you in a position to be blackballed only if someone on the interview board was strictly anti-PFT. However, all of your 20+ senior captains (who send their kids to GIA) are retiring their positions on these hiring boards. So in 5+ years when the majors do start hiring, you will be interviewing with many more of your peers who feel slighted by these PFTers. For the many valid reasons already stated on this thread for not PFTing, I think future hiring boards might be a little more hesitant to hire a PFTer. Not all senior captains hasten to potentially blackball their kid by sending him to GIA either. I personally know a few who agree that this practice degrades the future of our industry.

 

[av8torswh]

The PFT Situation

This is first time that I have been on the site to do a little research on the current situation in the airline industry (PFT In particular) and the best way to proceed with my training. I cannot believe the animosity that some of the pilots here have towards others that are just trying to succeed in this business.
I am 35 years old and have chosen to follow my dream after 10 years in the Army. This means, for all of you that are still in your 20's, that I don t have a whole lot of time to work with. What I may have is the opportunity to take out a LOAN which I will be paying on for the rest of my career. So if I am lucky I may be able to fly in the airlines for 20 years (you all will get 30+ years) and retire with a smaller retirement.
I feel for those who are unemployed and wish you all the best. We are all anxious about what the future holds in store for our careers but tearing down other pilots in the industry does nothing but belittle ourselves and our profession. I just wondering if there is anyone with some actual advice instead of biased opinions? I would greatly appreciate your input. Hang tough all!

 

[BoredToDeath]

Re: The PFT Situation

This is first time that I have been on the site to do a little research on the current situation in the airline industry (PFT In particular) and the best way to proceed with my training. I cannot believe the animosity that some of the pilots here have towards others that are just trying to succeed in this business.
I am 35 years old and have chosen to follow my dream after 10 years in the Army. This means, for all of you that are still in your 20's, that I don t have a whole lot of time to work with. What I may have is the opportunity to take out a LOAN which I will be paying on for the rest of my career. So if I am lucky I may be able to fly in the airlines for 20 years (you all will get 30+ years) and retire with a smaller retirement.
I feel for those who are unemployed and wish you all the best. We are all anxious about what the future holds in store for our careers but tearing down other pilots in the industry does nothing but belittle ourselves and our profession. I just wondering if there is anyone with some actual advice instead of biased opinions? I would greatly appreciate your input. Hang tough all!

In the last part of your paragraph you'll find part of a sentence which has the answer to your question. Here it is:belittle ourselves and our profession .

That my friend is what PFT does. Now let this thread die peacefully.

 

[KingAirer]

One of "N9103M" most frequent arguments about PFT is the fact that SENIOR capts and guys with lots of years of experience were the ones who guided him towards GIA and the Jr. pilots with 1200Tt were the ones leading him away from it...

Wonder why that is?

You remember in elementry school when someone wanted to get in front of you in line...most often you may have said, no you cant get in front of me but you can get behind me! The reason being is it made no difference to you, but you screwed the other people behind you.

Same case here. Those senior capts are not effected in the least by you PFTing, but the 1200Hr CFIs are!

I wonder if some of those guys are furloughed now and cant get jobs at places like pinnacle b/c PFTers have there slots?

 

[av8torswh]

Bored to Death

Get out from behind your computer and look for a job instead of complaining about how others have no right to survive just like you do. I asked for unbiased advice not bull**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** opinion. And if you have a job flying, you shouldn t cause you aren t a team player yourself. You are barking up the wrong tree here.

PS If you intend to get into a pissing contest you can rest assured that I will not respond to you again. Good day!

 

[BoredToDeath]

Re: Bored to Death

Get out from behind your computer and look for a job instead of complaining about how others have no right to survive just like you do. I asked for unbiased advice not bull**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** opinion. And if you have a job flying, you shouldn t cause you aren t a team player yourself. You are barking up the wrong tree here.

PS If you intend to get into a pissing contest you can rest assured that I will not respond to you again. Good day!

I'm not a team player? What team are you on? You come here seeking someones approval to PFT and help degrade the industry and your saying that I'm not a team player? Thats laughable at best.

And don't you dare through out that garbage about "your trying to survive so you want to PFT to get ahead". Thats BS, you can survive without flying. If you want to fly do it the right way and earn it. Your age dosen't give you the right to do such a digusting thing, so don't go chasing your dream at the industries expense.

I was trying to be nice the first time. Now you can take your 35 year old a$$ and F@#k Yourself.

Here, you want advise, hindsight being 20/20, you should have joined the Air Force and flew a plane.

 

[Mrs_Boeing]

Apache54, if you're still reading this please disregard everything else for just a second and listen very carefully.

Are you listening?

I have been almost exactly where you are now, and I didn't take the Gulfstream route despite it's hearty recommendation by a small handful of airline Captains from both regionals and majors. I just didn't have the money.

If you have the money ... DO IT!

You will be much farther ahead in this game than someone getting an MEL and instructing. You are not a newly-minted CPL, you are already a proficient pilot and you are a proven commodity, or you wouldn't be flying/instructing in the 64. You just need turbine multi fixed-wing time. Do it! You will never hear about it in any interview, it is not an issue with mature, working, professional pilots in the real world. But you've probably figured that out already by yourself. Some of the naysayers here are otherwise very helpful and have bent over backwards to help those just starting out. But really, the advice ON THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE ONLY of someone who hasn't even flown since the early 90s is worth about what you paid for it.

Do it, and don't sweat the small $hit!

Mama B.

 

[Data]

DAY ONE GROUND SCHOOL...

Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you for contributing to the Gulfstream Bottom Line. Our goal, as always, is to take a position in which most airlines have to pay a professional to work and sell it to you, thereby removing one paid employee per flight. Your generous contribution has allowed us to continue in this manner.

In today's class we're going to start with check lists. Please memorize the following and we'll test it out tomorrow when you take your first revenue flight in the vaunted Beech 1900.

Flaps Up - RESPOND WITH "Flaps UP"

Gear Up - RESPOND WITH "Gear UP"

Shut Up - NO RESPONSE NECESSARY

And that concludes your training. Good luck on the line. And, ahhh, ohh, please remember, as your flight time nears 230 hours to renew your contract for uninterrupted flight time. I've got bank routing numbers if you need them. Thanks, my name is Tom and if you would please fill out your Ground School Evaluation forms and deposit them in the slot at the door.

 

[Data]

In all seriousness, here's my take on it. Take it for what it's worth...nothing. To PFT or not? The rational side says "what's the difference"? You pay for the training either way. From that perspective, there is no difference, 250 hours of turbine multi is good good good. Do you need Turbine Multi for the first job? That's a matter of debate, I tend to think that you don't. In the beginning, Multi is Multi. The 121 side of it, well, that's worth its weight in gold. So there are some definate positives.

The problem with PFT is that by supporting a program like Gulfstream's, you support a company that has eliminated one paid FO position per flight. You thereby hurt the group of pilots that are near the magical minimum of flight time that would allow them to get a job where they are paid to fly an airplane. (Remember, it only takes 1 job opening to fulfill your dream.) That pisses this group of pilots off.

While the retired Captain tells you to PFT, he/she is not going to be the one down the road that is interviewing you and hiring you for the next great gig. I will be the one interviewing you. If you jump ahead of me now, it won't make me mad. But down the road, you never know what breaks I might get. Perhaps I jump ahead of you and get lucky at the next great gig. I can tell you one thing for absolute certain. WHEN I GET TO THE POINT WHERE I AM AN INTERVIEWING CAPTAIN, IF I SEE GULSTREAM ON YOUR RESUME, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET THE JOB! It only takes one negative in the interview process and "Thanks for applying with XYZ, unfortunately we cannot offer you a job at this time. Please try again in 6 months."

That's where the rub comes in. You are going to have to depend on your fellow pilots for jobs, now and in the future. Even if 90% of those pilots don't care whether you PFT or not, 10% of them might. The interview process is stressful enough, why stack the odds further against yourself when all you had to do what go about it in a manner that isn't as controversial? It's your future, not mine.

Good luck, hope this helps. And so you know, I made the same 'later in life' choice and started at the age of 32. Time is time at this point, the 250 hours you get can be had for a lot less. There aren't many places that are going to hire you after 250 hours in the Gulfstream program. Sure it's valuable, but I say purchase some major bulk time if you're willing to pay for and fly your pants off. Get a 1000 or so, maybe buy 300 multi from Ari Ben or something (for half the price of GSI) and get on with your training.

 

[bobbysamd]

As always, I cannot resist a P-F-T discussion

Someone above used the cutting-in-line analogy. Thank you. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

Part of the P-F-T problem is that people are in so much of a hurry. They cannot wait, or they don't want to wait. Some of these people are older and perhaps envision an age discrimination problem. So, they hurry!!

What makes older career changers any more privileged or deserving than a 21-year-old starting his/her career? Nothing. I was older. All I ever wanted was to be treated the same as others. That's all anyone wants, really. Male or female, younger or older.

I was 37 years old when I landed my first full-time flying job. It was instructing, at ERAU. It promised the opportunity to build experience and hours. I did so in about 1½ years. In my case, I had about 1100 hours but was extremely light on multi. I built about 580 hours to 630 of multi during that time and still had plenty of single-engine students.

I was not the only somewhat-older career changer at ERAU. We had another instructor who was a couple of years younger than me. He earned a degree at Riddle and got on with Bar Harbor about a year after I was hired. Now, this person may be flying for big Continental.

I will write again that I could have P-F-T'd. Around 1992, about the only way to get a regional airline job was to P-F-T. I was still a relative newcomer to professional aviation. All the ethical considerations aside, common sense and experience told me that you do not pay an employer for a job. P-F-T sounded like a scam to me. It still does - in more ways than one.

As far as I'm concerned, there is never an excuse to P-F-T. Especially being older. It's okay for me to talk about "older"; I'm 52 now.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[bobbysamd]

DAY ONE GROUND SCHOOL...

Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you for contributing to the Gulfstream Bottom Line. Our goal, as always, is to take a position in which most airlines have to pay a professional to work and sell it to you, thereby removing one paid employee per flight. Your generous contribution has allowed us to continue in this manner.

In today's class we're going to start with check lists. Please memorize the following and we'll test it out tomorrow when you take your first revenue flight in the vaunted Beech 1900.

Flaps Up - RESPOND WITH "Flaps UP"

Gear Up - RESPOND WITH "Gear UP"

Shut Up - NO RESPONSE NECESSARY

And that concludes your training. Good luck on the line. And, ahhh, ohh, please remember, as your flight time nears 230 hours to renew your contract for uninterrupted flight time. I've got bank routing numbers if you need them. Thanks, my name is Tom and if you would please fill out your Ground School Evaluation forms and deposit them in the slot at the door.

Very funny post!!

 

[SpocksBeard]

thats freaking hilarious!!

 

[SRMairlines]

My Advice:

You are taking the easy way out. I don't think what you do in the short term will matter, but it will cost you $$$$$$$$ in the long term. Airline hiring isn't happening and you will only support an airline that craves the most out of one of it'sworkers..... AN EMPLOYEE WHO IS WILLING TO PAY HIS/HER OWN MONEY TO WORK AT AN AIRLINE...

PEACE... But make better decisions than your peers

 

[d.fitz]

just a thought here....

What would all of you people who hate PFT say if he said he was spending $25,000 to rent a multi-engine airplane and fly around the country for 250 hours. Its exactly the same thing - he is supporting a flight school and paying to get a job.

I DEFINITELY think pilot pay sucks and would like to offer a good idea to help improve it (if I had one) - but I dont think Gulfstream really is the reason (or even a contributing factor) in why regional pilots get paid so little. These places exist because they can - they are making money at it...

Maybe one factor is regional airlines being limited by scope. Lets face it - a regional jet can handle every line in this country and do it cheaper on alot of the shorter runs - so scope by its existence - helps and hurts (in terms of competition).

That in combination with supply and demand - and the fact that pilots will accept these jobs at such a low pay. If no one took the job they would have to raise wages. This certainly happens in the aerospace industry when they need engineers - a few years back no one wanted to move to Wichita, KS - so the pay went through the roof to entice people here.

Not trying to start an argument - just offering a viewpoint.

What do you think?