Good bye SL9 Greed- no sir.

[ephull]

Eric, I respect your view of what you want out of this.

I will ask, why did your NC burn up 2 weeks of GK time along with his leading staff, when all along AT had no intention of putting this out for a vote. AT/ALPA has a hidden agenda, and is playing GK for a fool. I guess time will tell if ALPA is correct.

Like I have said before, GK is a man of his work. I personally would not want to play chicken with him.

feel free to spin it as you may, but put yourself in GK shoes.

Dude: I have no idea why it took that long, however they did need to carefully craft 3 other supporting agreements and consult legal. I honestly dont think there was a preplanned conspiracy. I like many were , very surprised by the actual vote. My guess it would have been split, with a tie breaker, and as it was speculated before it would go to a vote passed on our side 50%+1 and you guys would have voted it down as a pilot group. As the actual agreements became available for study to our pilot group, the sentiment changed.

 

[Formula 1]

Yep that's me, Would any of us voluntarily, no of course not. But it may happen anyway, so be it, the money is good the company is great, I've pulled gear for guys that used to pull gear for me. It's the way the biz works, I have no ego about it.
"But I do have to say I really am my own favorite Captain"

You want to be considered an equal?

DOH, no fence.

Welcome to SWA.

 

[ephull]

$250K can buy a lot of QOL. The problem I see is you (AAI guys) don't understand how our (SWA) system works. Our union tried to explain it with the mailer you received. It's different over here, different in a good way.

Do you think an arbitrator is going to keep you in the left seat?

I agree and we agree-I don't think the AAI pilots do understand how your systems works. We've had a management that fought us on absolutely everything since the day I got here and for years and years before that. We 've been taught to have a lot mistrust and look for the conspiracy.
I don't have any idea what an arbitrator will decide.

 

[PapaWoody]

I've been a silent observer for a while, time to comment on a few things. I am the bottom 737 AT Captain. I may have had a lot to gain and a lot to lose in the rejected SLI Agreement. That being said -from my perspective I feel a there is a huge injustice in what is “not” being said in these message boards.


(what isn't being said -is the AirTran pilots were welcome aboard if we could accept life at SWA as a 2nd class pilot group, “the clean up crew that would work weekends, holidays and bounce from junior base to junior base for over a decade and most likely a lot longer ”)---the point our MEC made with their no vote was that is not acceptable).




To all those who preach greedy AirTran pilots---it's not about the money it's about quality of life.
What is being said is the Airtran pilots are greedy: rejecting a 2 billion $ incentive over $2 million a piece. Fuzzy math by my calculations. In fact in a few short years if I were to be back in the right seat, It would have been a pay loss. I am still a little curious how placing AT pilots on = pay scale with SWA pilots is a sweetner or incentive but that's how SWA and SWAPA are spinning it.


1st let me pointedly say our MEC did not give us the choice to decide. 2nd I think the additional pay would have been nice. However, I am well aware of what my career expectations were on 9/26/10 -I think all Airtran pilots are,.


If you studied SL9 and other supporting documentation in detail-it was plain to see the loopholes. Loopholes skillfully wrapped into the SLI agreement. The loopholes stacked the deck nicely in SWAPA's favor-and simply handing AT pilots a huge seniority loss for the majority. At the end of the day junior captain retention slots would have been negated , ATL fences would have been negated as the base would have been 40% of all AT pilots remaining displced, a lot of the other protections would have been negated. We were being enticed with money we haven't seen before to quickly rollover and sell out our seniority. I personally would have lost 33%, 51% to 84%.


Gentlemen we are not the greedy pilot group many have labeled us.


A fair and equitable integration is what we desire, we do not desire to harm our future coworkers or their careers.


The AirTran pilot group helped build a lean, profitable airline that offers a superior product. We helped build an airline we can be proud of. One that withstood valuation, judging and scrutiny by the high standards of our new owners . We helped build an airline outside of SWA,FEDEX or UPS that became a top career destination in the industry. We know how to be efficient and are thus competitive, we are a hard working group of professional aviators that do not appreciate being looked down upon. (I think that was partly the point of the MEC vote).


If we end up integrating, I look forward working with all of you in the future.


I personally hope we can put this together quickly and peaceably so we can go out and beat up on our competitors in a down economy like usual! “Together” It may take more giving from both parties.

Regards, Eric Hull

Eric

I respect your viewpoint, and especially your willingness to sign your name. And although this is a very contentious issue, I personally hope that we can get it resolved in such a way that preserves the Southwest culture and brings you all on board this great company.

That being said, I have two points about your post. The first is that your issue with your diminished quality of life is a little hollow. In Jan 2011, you agreed to staple yourself, with the subsequent loss of QoL, to the bottom of the AirTran CA list. Why, probably for the 50% pay raise (and maybe just a little bit for the other 50% pay raise when you become a SWA CA). In this situation, you are one of the biggest benefactors -- you end up with over a 100% pay raise ($95/hr-ish as a senior AT f/o to approx. $200/hr as a SWA CA). I'm sorry if I don't grieve for your lost QoL, considering I have been commuting for the last 4 yrs for only a 50% pay raise. Of course, you could always downgrade back to F/O and have better seniority/QoL than you upgraded to and make more money than you make as an AAI CA. Not to mention all the other benefits that our CBA brings with respect to you and your family.

Second point concerns the part of your post that I highlighted. To say that AirTran was a "top career destination in the industry" is disingenuous and shows your willingness to twist the reality of the situation to fit your argument. I'm not saying anything against you guys/girls as pilots or as people, but AirTran was most definitely not a place that many people would put on the top of their career wish list as a major airline pilot. Heck, it probably wasn't even near the middle for most guys. That is due mostly to your management, but to try to deny that fact casts the rest of your heartfelt into incredulity. This is not a merger of equal careers. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but it is what it is.

One last thing. With SL9, not a single AirTran pilot was "losing" one bit of seniority. Why? Because currently you don't have any seniority on the SWAPA MSL. In fact, SL9 offered all of you the opportunity to start at greater seniority on the SWAPA MSL than every single one of us did, along with other protections that none of us got when we "stapled" ourselves to the list. That current opportunity is gone now, but I for one truly hope that we can work things out and that you guys get another opportunity to join our family. It will take a shift in expectations from both sides, but based on your MEC actions, probably more on yours. Good luck and Godspeed.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[scoreboardII]

Ephull, what say you?

I noticed you have not as yet answered my simple request for you to provide your version of whats fair. I restate that question below, please provide your answer to the problem.

No one has a right to complain unless they can provide a solution for the problem they think exists, anything less is just whining.

So Eric, whats your list look like, one that doesn't harm a SWA pilot? One that doesn't mean the SWA list in 15 years is disproportionately stacked with much younger AT pilots, with older SWA pilots still below them while we retire at a seniority loss? How do you make a list that balances the windfall in economic gains for one side with the no loss/no harm on the other? Notice I didn't say "we get some gains" just assure no harm monetarily. The only way to balance that is by seniority shift.

I say that list looks remarkably like SL9.

What does your list look like?

 

[ephull]

Points taken: bottom of the list in Milwaukee on reserve, drivable from home. Life is not bad. I have to beg to differ on the "top career destination in the industry"
not the top of course ---among the top 5 I'd say. I fly with all the junior junior guys and hear where they were trying to go, it's their opinion not mine.

 

[ephull]

I noticed you have not as yet answered my simple request for you to provide your version of whats fair. I restate that question below, please provide your answer to the problem.

No one has a right to complain unless they can provide a solution for the problem they think exists, anything less is just whining.

I haven't formualted a fair for everyone solution, I used up all of today's brain power simply stating why greedy is really not an acccurate label for us.

Honestly ths will piss off a lot of our people, but DOH, with corresponding longevity no fences works for me. All the restrictions and fences and so on was far too complicated and created far too much anomosity.

 

[redflyer65]

that became a top career destination in the industry.

Eric,

I appreciate your candor in the post, but it's a pretty big jump to talk about how AAI was a top career airline. I have no doubt that you guys worked your butts off under some represive management. You didn't deserve that. But with top payscales of 153/hr and 79/hr for CA and FO's respectively is along way from were the SW pay and QOL were on Sept. 26th.

This is not like merging apples and oranges, it's worse unfortunately.

I can understand the loss of QOL if you are living in ATL and now find yourself junior and can't hold it. The harsh reality is that Airtran was bought, and with that comes the angst of the company being purchased. Look around at most corporate buy-outs in other industries. Most of the time the acquiring company just closes up shop and tell the employees that they can apply at the new company when openings are available. I'm not saying that is how this should play out, just pointing out how bad these things look outside of the aviation community. So yes, the 2M per pilot deal was extremely generous in this envirnoment, but you needed to look at it long term. There is no other stable company in this industry than Southwest. Balance sheet is steller.

RF

 

[vv100]

"We helped build an airline outside of SWA,FEDEX or UPS that became a top career destination in the industry"

That's almost better than the sigline I stole from Lonestar. Almost.

Thanks for engaging Eric.
Best of luck to you.

 

[CaptWidgeon]

I fly with all the junior junior guys and hear where they were trying to go, it's their opinion not mine.

when you say where they are trying to go, do you mean after air tran? as in AT was a stepping stone for them? i'm sincerely asking.

if they were on the bottom and trying to leave, they could leave swa once they got here, bottom of your list, bottom of ours. same position, different pay rates? not flaming, asking for comparison and clarification.

and i get that they would be on the bottom of our list for a while, but if they leave AT they'd be on the bottom of most carriers for a while, if they could get on, and again they could still leave from swa's list any time their dream job came up.