Good bye SL9 Greed- no sir.

[chjack]

This isn't going to work. SWA pilots use terms like "won the lottery", "lucky", "stapled" and guys go ballistic. You SWA guys are so arrogant. Why do we use these terms? Because that is how 99% of us felt when we were hired. Former Astronauts, Former Air Tran Captains, Former Acquired airline pilots. What an awesome party it was when I was "stapled" to the bottom. I did feel fortunate to have made it through the interview and lucky to get selected. It took me a long time to get to SWA and I will probably be in my 50s before I upgrade. Price to be paid for getting to SWA.

We now have a group of pilots that were offered more than anyone at this airline has ever been offered before and were not happy with it. There is no daylight between the cultures and I believe that is sinking in on both sides. SWA needs to do this internally, with motivated folks honored to start at the bottom. Anything else is poison to the culture.

Air Tran guys are always welcome on my jumpseat and I will continue to be friendly and helpful whenever possible. I will politely ask to not participate in any SLI discussions because the cultural differences are simply too great. I do hope we eventually offer preferential interviews for those that "get it."

This post proves the southwest guys dont get it. yeah, you were 'honored" to be stapled, but that doesnt mean others find it an honor to be stapled at southwest. SWA guys feel like anybody that doesnt want to work there is stupid for passing up such an "honor." different strokes for different folks.

Alot of the guys at SWA dont want to work at American or Delta. does that make them idiots? of course not, its just not where they choose to hang their hats. there were guys at airtran who had decided it was their final airline. So to say that because they now dont want to be stapled at the "worlds greatest airline", makes them out of touch is dead wrong.

And the whole "prefferential interviews", for "guys who get it" is even more ridiculous. why should a guy have to interview for a job he already has?

All you guys talk about is culture, but if someone doesnt agree or want to be a part of it at any cost, they are abad guy, and you speak of "Gary's revenge. So what is it? A great culture, or a bunch of vindictive dudes who try to screw anybody who doesnt think SWA is the "bees knees"

 

[ephull]

I wasn't refering to where they might go after Airtran, haven't flown with any that mentioned going anywhere else. We work for SWA now why would they LOL.

But seriously, if your at the bottom of any list and have the op to move up to a better company, better paying career or simply a flying career that fits your life's ambitions better why not. I'd say most FO's that came to AT recently planned on staying.

 

[CaptWidgeon]

eric, thanks for what things look like from your side of the fence.

neither of our groups asked for this, but there are a lot of things that happen that we don't want to occur. sometimes it's for the better sometimes not. hopefully we, both groups, can work things out that is beneficial for all.

thanks again. :beer:

 

[ngsp]

You want to be considered an equal?

DOH, no fence.

Welcome to SWA.

i am a junior capt and will get hammered for saying this by my fellow pilots, but yes, i think this is where it should have been to start with. DOH, no fences, no capt protections and let the chips fall where they may. i don't want to be a second class citizen for the rest of my career.

disclaimer- this is just one humble pilots opinion, so if you don't agree, move on. we didn't get a vote in the current situation.

 

[waveflyer]

Eric- props for using your name. Some know who I am, but I'm not putting it out there. Makes for a more respectful conversation.

CHJACK- that might be the case- but if you get acquired by SWA and don't feel honored to work here- That's a good argument for GK to withhold a seat at all, not vault one to their current relative seniority. The situation here is too good and too expensive for mgmt to appease someone who lacks the humility to come in nicely to the one place left that has been committed to treating it's people so well.
Luke 14:10

 

[Cruncher]

Anytime you interview at an airline and are fortunate to be hired, you have effectively stapled yourself to the bottom of the list, with all the rights and privileges a New Hire is afforded. The honorably Bond & McCaskill have essentially forced the government into the private sector once again.

Though an old Chinese proverb goes: Be careful what you wish for, as you just may get it. (or something to that effect). IOW, where B/M tries to protect jobs, it could in effect, eliminate them.

Seniority is not forever, just ask the guys from every airline that has gone Chp. 7 liquidation.

This process is probably far from over, but one thing I am sure of, the SWA employees are more unified than ever.

Be careful of biting the hand that feeds. Knowing how Gary negotiates, all the $$$s from SL9 are gone and will be hard fought to get back, if possible.

I'm not here to debate. I'm most likely not gonna change your mind, additionally, I don't feel like reading drizzle from the sole DAL guy on here (posing as 2 or 3 guys). But I will say, be careful of ALPA's guidance, this would not be the first time ALPA was effective in losing all their members jobs.

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

I get so tired of hearing how greedy the SWA pilots are. Like it is a foregone conclusion that the Airtran pilots have an automatic right to our contract because we bought them.

Let me ask the Airtran pilots this. Would you be ok with DOH with having to live with your pre September 27th contract for the rest of your SWA career? (Please don't debate why this contract and not the one that magically appeared weeks after the buyout announcement) You would get the exact same raises that RSW pilots would get. Lets call it Tranny scale. Would you think that fair?

I would. And be happy to accept this proposal. And no joke, this is a possibility.

Could you live with that?

 

[yoyoma]

Eric,

I appreciate your candor in the post, but it's a pretty big jump to talk about how AAI was a top career airline. I have no doubt that you guys worked your butts off under some represive management. You didn't deserve that. But with top payscales of 153/hr and 79/hr for CA and FO's respectively is along way from were the SW pay and QOL were on Sept. 26th.

This is not like merging apples and oranges, it's worse unfortunately.

I can understand the loss of QOL if you are living in ATL and now find yourself junior and can't hold it. The harsh reality is that Airtran was bought, and with that comes the angst of the company being purchased. Look around at most corporate buy-outs in other industries. Most of the time the acquiring company just closes up shop and tell the employees that they can apply at the new company when openings are available. I'm not saying that is how this should play out, just pointing out how bad these things look outside of the aviation community. So yes, the 2M per pilot deal was extremely generous in this envirnoment, but you needed to look at it long term. There is no other stable company in this industry than Southwest. Balance sheet is steller.

RF

Post of the year! why dont aai pilots understand that someone has to lose here, and they were the ones who were bought, and they are the ones working at a company nobody wishes to work for!

 

[Sacha]

I wasn't refering to where they might go after Airtran, haven't flown with any that mentioned going anywhere else. We work for SWA now why would they LOL.

But seriously, if your at the bottom of any list and have the op to move up to a better company, better paying career or simply a flying career that fits your life's ambitions better why not. I'd say most FO's that came to AT recently planned on staying.

Bull. If the majority of the Airtran guys let alone the new hires were to get a classdate at Delta, they would be gone in a New York Minute.

 

[CF34-3B1]

It's very simple. Eric wants to increase his pay from something around $140K to $250K and keep his seniority. All on the backs of SWA pilots who get nothing in return and are actually harmed in career earnings with his list. That's Fair, right? Did I mention that SWA is the acquiring carrier?

DING DING DING We have a winner.

 

[xjhawk]

Are you the bottom guy that just upgraded a couple weeks ago that would get to be a SWA Captain over the FO's that have been here for 11+ years?

Mighty magnanimous of you sport.

Tell me you are willing to come over as a mid level FO and you will have some credibility. Otherwise it's all bull$hit.

If it goes to arbitration guess what? It will most likely go cat/class and that means that that brand new upgrade that has half your longevity will be very senior to you in the end. Its just the facts of the last couple mergers-dont let your union tell you otherwise. I was dumb to believe the -we will get DOH-its the only fair way that Bloch can decide

 

[redflyer65]

I think it will go to arbitration, and the list will never be merged. Just look at the ALPO response to understand why I say that. Good luck.

RF

 

[ephull]

"But with top payscales of 153/hr and 79/hr for CA and FO's respectively is along way from were the SW pay and QOL"

Correction had to dig out my contract --current book 12/1/10 $163.22 /$100.78/hr 12/1/14 $186.32 /$117.46 ---narrows that $2mil per a little.

 

[yoyoma]

ummm...thats per hour vs per TRIP. 210 an hour at swa vs your 163

 

[becket]

Money comes and goes in aviation. Yes, even to the almighty SWA. A promise of money today doesn't mean crap unless the full amount is deposited in escrow. Something that will never happen. GK is pissed because for the first time in his professional life a group of pilots refused to kiss the ass of SWA.

 

[redflyer65]

Eric,

With all due respect, you would have never had the contract you do right now if it wasn't for SW stepping in. Can you not see that?

These are the kind of statements that make most SW pilots cringe. It's an entitlement way of thinking.

Again, thank you for engaging with your thoughts. We may have to agree to disagree.

RF

 

[redflyer65]

Money comes and goes in aviation. Yes, even to the almighty SWA. A promise of money today doesn't mean crap unless the full amount is deposited in escrow. Something that will never happen. GK is pissed because for the first time in his professional life a group of pilots refused to kiss the ass of SWA.

Mine gets deposited in my 'escrow' every 5th and 20th. Best job I've ever had. Gary has alot to do with that.

RF

 

[yoyoma]

Eric let me ask you a question...

when did you apply at southwest? did you get the interview? did you get turned down? do you still have an app on file?

 

[vv100]

"But with top payscales of 153/hr and 79/hr for CA and FO's respectively is along way from were the SW pay and QOL"

Correction had to dig out my contract --current book 12/1/10 $163.22 /$100.78/hr 12/1/14 $186.32 /$117.46 ---narrows that $2mil per a little.

Convenient of you to use the payscale Southwest helped you get.

Now run the numbers pre announcement.

Yeah I thought so.

 

[ephull]

Maybe , maybe not, we had voted 98% for a strike just prior.
I guess I need to thank SWA for this "gift" too. We thought this current contract had a lot of crappy language in it as well,... It was voted on under duress, kinda like this SLI Agreement would have been. Im being rhetorical. " a little"

Now where's the Ice Cream poster? This is getting way too serious and I need a good laugh.

 

[becket]

Mine gets deposited in my 'escrow' every 5th and 20th. Best job I've ever had. Gary has alot to do with that.

RF

Feel like betting your seniority, QOL, and career on the promise of higher pay 20 years from now? The 5th and the 20th is irrelevant.

 

[ephull]

Eric let me ask you a question...

when did you apply at southwest? did you get the interview? did you get turned down? do you still have an app on file?

Gents; I have nothing to hide , 12 years ago I interviewed, No type. Never applied again. I got the letter after 11 weeks and a SWA drug test, they filled the class with type rated guys. I had a friend in the class. I was a 30 year old DC10 Captain at the time. But apparrently not what they were looking for, for that class.

 

[Andy]

I think it will go to arbitration, and the list will never be merged. Just look at the ALPO response to understand why I say that. Good luck.

RF

GK's balking at mediation; I doubt he'll agree to arbitration. No need if you have separate operating certificates.
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/08/gary-kelly-talks-about-airtran-1.html
Excerpt:

Media: What was your reaction to the ALPA MEC's decision not to send the agreement out to a vote by members?
Kelly: "Well, first of all, I'm appreciative of all the hard work that has gone into a seniority list integration agreement between the Southwest pilots and the AirTran pilots. In fact, it is unprecedented that we actually were able to come to an agreement in principle among the company and the two pilot unions.
"The Southwest pilot union had unanimously approved the deal to send it out for a vote. I was disappointed last week that the ALPA MEC chose not to send it out, in effect rejected that deal.
"So at this point we'll move forward. There is a process agreement in place that allows for mediated sessions and then ultimately binding arbitration if we merge the two airlines. We're going to take a step back and evaluate all of our operations.
"We had a very generous offer economically on the table. So we have pulled that offer. Now, it's just a different environment with the economy and also with very high fuel prices. We'll just consider all options and ultimately we'll do what's best for the Southwest Airlines' culture as well as the Southwest Airlines business."
Media: So the financial sweeteners are no longer on the table? You won't initially participate in mediation?
Kelly: "Correct. Obviously if asked, we'll join the mediated sessions. We can't improve upon what was offered. In fact, at this point I don't feel comfortable, since we don't have a deal, I don't see any reason ... well, we pulled the offer."
Media: What was the annualized cost of what Southwest offered to get the deal?
Kelly: "Well, it was certainly tens of millions of dollars in 2012, and annualized it would obviously be more than that. That's my best estimate off the top of my head."
Media: Does this push back the timetable for getting a single operating certificate that covers both Southwest and AirTran?
Kelly: "No. They're separate issues. All of that will have to be coordinated with the FAA. But in other words, as you well know, this is a multi-month if not multi-year conversion process.
"The target date for the single operating certificate is March 1. Well, we were not going to have one airline at that point, as you guys know. It really has no bearing. What this does is it will slow down the integration process and perhaps change the integration process.
"We were willing to put some money on the table to get an expedited seniority list, and since we have not been able to do that, well, it just gives us an opportunity to reconsider how we want to move forward."

Money comes and goes in aviation. Yes, even to the almighty SWA. A promise of money today doesn't mean crap unless the full amount is deposited in escrow. Something that will never happen. GK is pissed because for the first time in his professional life a group of pilots refused to kiss the ass of SWA.

You need to read up a bit on SWA's acquisition history. This isn't the first pilot group to do that. It hasn't worked in the past so I don't know why people think it'll work this time around. Bond-McCaskill? That doesn't work if there are two operating certificates.
GK is telling everyone that the merger either happens according to his vision or there's no merging.

 

[bigakl]

Part of the problem is people are seeing this merger as apples to apples. AT is nothing but a glorified commuter airline. If I wanted a job there I could have had one 12 years ago directly from the right seat of a turboprop with a 2 year capt upgrade. This is no NWA/Delta merger. 3/4 or the AT pilots would have killed for a SWA job and started on the bottom a year ago. IMHO a 10 year AT capt should start at the bottom of the list at SWA where they belong- just like every other commuter airline capt would

 

[redflyer65]

The 5th and the 20th is irrelevant.

Classic. Thanks for making my point.

RF

 

[yoyoma]

Part of the problem is people are seeing this merger as apples to apples. AT is nothing but a glorified commuter airline. If I wanted a job there I could have had one 12 years ago directly from the right seat of a turboprop with a 2 year capt upgrade. This is no NWA/Delta merger. 3/4 or the AT pilots would have killed for a SWA job and started on the bottom a year ago. IMHO a 10 year AT capt should start at the bottom of the list at SWA where they belong- just like every other commuter airline capt would

dont let airtran pilots hear you say this...they think they all fly 777 for 300k a year

 

[ephull]

Part of the problem is people are seeing this merger as apples to apples. AT is nothing but a glorified commuter airline. If I wanted a job there I could have had one 12 years ago directly from the right seat of a turboprop with a 2 year capt upgrade. This is no NWA/Delta merger. 3/4 or the AT pilots would have killed for a SWA job and started on the bottom a year ago. IMHO a 10 year AT capt should start at the bottom of the list at SWA where they belong- just like every other commuter airline capt would

Oye-I flew my :commuter" from LA to Baltimore the other day. 12 years ago I'd not have thought for a second about sending AT a resume. Things in aviation change and so do the ailrines.

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

Gents; I have nothing to hide , 12 years ago I interviewed, No type. Never applied again. I got the letter after 11 weeks and a SWA drug test, they filled the class with type rated guys. I had a friend in the class. I was a 30 year old DC10 Captain at the time. But apparrently not what they were looking for, for that class.

It could have been the drug test. Not that you were doing anything wrong, but back then they wouldn't send you for the drug test unless they wanted to put you in a class.

And it is never about "the" class. Everyone was put in a pool. Some with types, some without. If they filled the class with everyone with a type, well everyone has (Morris exception) always had a type going to class.

Class to class we never had a quota or demographic that was trying to be obtained. The only constant was overall, not class to class, 50% military and 50% civilian.

 

[ephull]

It could have been the drug test. Not that you were doing anything wrong, but back then they wouldn't send you for the drug test unless they wanted to put you in a class.

And it is never about "the" class. Everyone was put in a pool. Some with types, some without. If they filled the class with everyone with a type, well everyone has (Morris exception) always had a type going to class.

Class to class we never had a quota or demographic that was trying to be obtained. The only constant was overall, not class to class, 50% military and 50% civilian.

Damn-- I Knew I should have studied harder for that test!

 

[bigakl]

Oye-I flew my :commuter" from LA to Baltimore the other day. 12 years ago I'd not have thought for a second about sending AT a resume. Things in aviation change and so do the ailrines.

Last time I checked my old commuter airline is also flying coast to coast with their RJ's. What I was stating was facts about AT - but somehow AT guys don't want to admit that