Good bye SL9 Greed- no sir.

[pork]

If Airtran was "one of the top career destinations in the country" then Rosy O'Donnell and Hillary are at the top of most people's fantasy list. Come on, at least keep it real.

 

[cappydd]

what about DOH with no fences, no protections, etc, and wind up wherever your senority will hold? How about fencing the upgrades---swa f/o's get the upgrade when a swa captain retires, AAi f/o's get the upgrade when a AAi captain retires......movement for all?? just an idea.

 

[GuppyWN]

Just an idea. How 'bout we let SWAPA and ALPA figure it out.

Gup

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

what about DOH with no fences, no protections, etc, and wind up wherever your senority will hold? How about fencing the upgrades---swa f/o's get the upgrade when a swa captain retires, AAi f/o's get the upgrade when a AAi captain retires......movement for all?? just an idea.

And the AAI pilots are locked in their pre 9/26 contract. Any raises negotiated by SWA will be given to the Airtran pilots. It will be the new Tranny scale.

Then most everyone should be happy. Right?

 

[huronip]

I've been a silent observer for a while, time to comment on a few things. I am the bottom 737 AT Captain. I may have had a lot to gain and a lot to lose in the rejected SLI Agreement. That being said -from my perspective I feel a there is a huge injustice in what is “not” being said in these message boards.


(what isn't being said -is the AirTran pilots were welcome aboard if we could accept life at SWA as a 2nd class pilot group, “the clean up crew that would work weekends, holidays and bounce from junior base to junior base for over a decade and most likely a lot longer ”)---the point our MEC made with their no vote was that is not acceptable).




To all those who preach greedy AirTran pilots---it's not about the money it's about quality of life.
What is being said is the Airtran pilots are greedy: rejecting a 2 billion $ incentive over $2 million a piece. Fuzzy math by my calculations. In fact in a few short years if I were to be back in the right seat, It would have been a pay loss. I am still a little curious how placing AT pilots on = pay scale with SWA pilots is a sweetner or incentive but that's how SWA and SWAPA are spinning it.


1st let me pointedly say our MEC did not give us the choice to decide. 2nd I think the additional pay would have been nice. However, I am well aware of what my career expectations were on 9/26/10 -I think all Airtran pilots are,.


If you studied SL9 and other supporting documentation in detail-it was plain to see the loopholes. Loopholes skillfully wrapped into the SLI agreement. The loopholes stacked the deck nicely in SWAPA's favor-and simply handing AT pilots a huge seniority loss for the majority. At the end of the day junior captain retention slots would have been negated , ATL fences would have been negated as the base would have been 40% of all AT pilots remaining displced, a lot of the other protections would have been negated. We were being enticed with money we haven't seen before to quickly rollover and sell out our seniority. I personally would have lost 33%, 51% to 84%.


Gentlemen we are not the greedy pilot group many have labeled us.


A fair and equitable integration is what we desire, we do not desire to harm our future coworkers or their careers.


The AirTran pilot group helped build a lean, profitable airline that offers a superior product. We helped build an airline we can be proud of. One that withstood valuation, judging and scrutiny by the high standards of our new owners . We helped build an airline outside of SWA,FEDEX or UPS that became a top career destination in the industry. We know how to be efficient and are thus competitive, we are a hard working group of professional aviators that do not appreciate being looked down upon. (I think that was partly the point of the MEC vote).


If we end up integrating, I look forward working with all of you in the future.


I personally hope we can put this together quickly and peaceably so we can go out and beat up on our competitors in a down economy like usual! “Together” It may take more giving from both parties.

Regards, Eric Hull

If you're so concerned about QOL then why did you even upgrade?? Because of money. Your going to be working weekends and holdiays for years no matter what the outcome. I can't believe you put your name on this.

Let's face it Eric you're a greedy pilot. If not you would be a top FO with great QOL right now. I don't think anyone feels sorry for you except yourself.

 

[On Your Six]

If Airtran was "one of the top career destinations in the country" then Rosy O'Donnell and Hillary are at the top of most people's fantasy list. Come on, at least keep it real.

PLEASE use that as opening lines for possible upcoming arbitration. That would be classic!


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

And the AAI pilots are locked in their pre 9/26 contract. Any raises negotiated by SWA will be given to the Airtran pilots. It will be the new Tranny scale.

Then most everyone should be happy. Right?

So, you don't care about a B-scale? The arbitration will yield a list, and then you will have a two tier system, a punative system. Congrats on that.


OYS

 

[ephull]

If you're so concerned about QOL then why did you even upgrade?? Because of money. Your going to be working weekends and holdiays for years no matter what the outcome. I can't believe you put your name on this.

Let's face it Eric you're a greedy pilot. If not you would be a top FO with great QOL right now. I don't think anyone feels sorry for you except yourself.

Bud you can twist words I will give you that.
I am a humble pilot if anything, I posted simply because I feel the "greedy" AirTran pilot spin needed to be debunked. Sure I upgraded for 1)money who wouldn't and 2) I like the Captain seat.
I'm reserve in Milwaukee and honestly life there so far has been better than my senior Fo lines, minus the weekends off. I don't seek sympathy nor do I feel sorry for myself. However, the SL9 was about placing AT pilots as 2nd class citizens for at least a decade and most likely a lot longer. At the end of the day we didnt get to vote on it and I am disaapointed. Read my post- the 1st 1 on this thread and see if you really think Im about greed.

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

So, you don't care about a B-scale? The arbitration will yield a list, and then you will have a two tier system, a punative system. Congrats on that.


OYS

Its not my decision. It is AAI's. Somehow this must benefit SWA pilots as well as AAI pilots. Fair and Equitable. Right?

SWA is not the bad guy here. I have worked here 18 years and the other airlines have always loved to demonize us for our success. While others have furloughed and taken huge pay and benefit cuts, SWA has grown and increased pay and benefits. I know how it is. I use to be one of those envious pilots. Now I am not.

 

[waveflyer]

Eric-
How do you solve the age issue? Do you think Swapa pilots projected to retire #200, retiring #700 is fair to them? Even SL9 put 300 younger trannies above me... The #'s are there- both sides have them... How do you reconcile AT's short term issues with our long term one's?

There's also the argument that SWA took years longer to get on with ON AVERAGE than AT does. A ridiculous # of pilots here have had your exact interview experience. But they got the type and interviewed 1-2 more times. Do you think the company is going to disrespect their commitment by integrating remotely evenly?
How do you tackle the argument that these were not equal jobs and capitalism should have some benefits to the purchaser?

 

[ephull]

Eric-
How do you solve the age issue? Do you think Swapa pilots projected to retire #200, retiring #700 is fair to them? Even SL9 put 300 younger trannies above me... The #'s are there- both sides have them... How do you reconcile AT's short term issues with our long term one's?

There's also the argument that SWA took years longer to get on with ON AVERAGE than AT does. A ridiculous # of pilots here have had your exact interview experience. But they got the type and interviewed 1-2 more times. Do you think the company is going to disrespect their commitment by integrating remotely evenly?
How do you tackle the argument that these were not equal jobs and capitalism should have some benefits to the purchaser?

I don't pretend to have an answer. You have some valid questions, DOH and no fences at perhaps.

 

[waveflyer]

I've stated this before- DOH gives every AT pilot a 300 Swapa pilot cushion from the snapshot bc we hired through OCT '08 whereas AT stopped hiring in April '08. Think that's right?

And DOH doesn't address the fact that if pursuing both airlines at the same time - the SWA job takes on average 3-5 years longer to attain than the AT one- it's simply more competitive bc of the pay, culture, bases etc- leading to the age disparity.

Here's my example- it would not be relevant but for the fact that it's fairly common:
its just my experience- but I've run into a lot of my 70-90,000#'s who've had similar experiences- I turned down AT in 2003 after an Air Inc conference where I spoke to both swa and AT (and Amer West and UPS and Fedex ...etc) I didn't do the interview with AT bc of a conflict and in large part bc of the advice a SWA Capt recruiter gave me to stay at my regional and pad my PIC time- I had about 1500 PT121 TPIC over 3 types at that point- a direct quote "I don't think sitting in the right seat of a larger plane is going to help you much. We always value PIC and leadership roles over the right seat in any aircraft. We hire captains and leaders." He then went on to look at my resume and stated that competitive TPIC mins for civilians are usually higher than what I had, even though I had the mins. So I stayed at my regional. Now I'd already been at a commuter and a legacy before, so I was itching like crazy to get back to Boeing sized jets- but I didn't- I padded my 121TPIC time slugging it out in the ever increasing outsourced world of legacy route structures that I used to fly big jets to. And it worked- I got the job I really wanted in 2007, 3 and a half years after I'd have been in class at AT had I passed their interview. And I passed on the first try. So many of our best pilots have had to interview 2 and 3 times to get on. it's not just civilian pilots- I've flown with several military pilots who have interviewed 2 or more times. The record I've seen is 4. And usually a year before a subsequent interview is offered.

Are those years relevant to a seniority discussion?
Obviously, I feel like they are. SWA set up a process where they could differentiate between those who wanted a job and those who REALLY want to fly for swa.
I just don't see them telling us many times a year how special we are, bragging about how difficult it is to get hired by swa- and then doing a 180 and saying "just kidding" we're integrating you by DOH.

It simply will not happen on even terms.
It's not a 2nd class citizen thing- it's a required humility, a Luke 14:10 thing, a servant mentality when you join this family-
You just don't show up with the lack of perspective ALPA has shown.
SWA buying you is very very good- you don't negotiate on a hard line in this scenario.
JMO-
Y'all are free to do as you will.

 

[dh82dvr]

Life is full of choices wave. You chose to wait and pad your time to get where you wanted. Everyone makes decisions based on the information at hand and their own personal circumstance. Just because it is different to yours doesn't mean you are any better, more determined or any other reason that may be thrown around. There is a bucket of pain that has to be shared around. I expect that AT will wear a lot but it should not be all. Whats the difference between retiring 200 or 700. Surely QOL is about the same? Pay will be the same?

 

[Beechdriver32]

Whats the difference between retiring 200 or 700. Surely QOL is about the same? Pay will be the same?

DH82dvr-

Use the same thought process and expand on it. Your QOL would have gone through the roof, you just don't know it because ALPA didn't explain it to you. You are simply ignorant of what SWA is all about. Not a slam, but if and when you get here you will see what I mean.

SWA is NOT AT. None you seem to see that. Your MEC really just simply sold you.

And Eric-
Thank you for your time and energy in writing what you did. As a 9 year SWA FO who would have been your FO for the next 10 years, I personally thank you. Most of us regular line folks would have voted this in knowing that it was good overall for the company. I really was unhappy with SL9, and thought you were getting way too many protections. Now, if you are representative of your group, I KNOW that is the case. You have simply emboldened my thoughts on your group. And thats just too bad.

I wish no ill on you and yours, but the olive branch is wilting.

If it's only about QOL and not money, why did any AT guys ever upgrade?

Be real and we might have a real conversation.

BD32

 

[St. Nic]

The arbitrators in the DL/NWA SLI did not look at age of the group. The NWA group had far more senior pilots that were "supposedly" ready to retire at any moment after the SLI (they did not, they are going close to 65), and the 3 arbitrators didn't seem to care. Just because the Airtran guys are overall younger, doesn't mean you should get a bump in seniority, and I doubt your eventual arbitration will show that.

You are offensive, plane and simple.

 

[DougCorp-9]

You want to be considered an equal?

DOH, no fence.

Welcome to SWA.

Deal. DOH and NO fences, restrictions, ect....

 

[tankerhead]

I've stated this before- DOH gives every AT pilot a 300 Swapa pilot cushion from the snapshot bc we hired through OCT '08 whereas AT stopped hiring in April '08. Think that's right?

You DO keep saying this but it's not accurate: AAI hired in 2010 before the announcement. Anyone got a list handy?

 

[carl p]

Deal. DOH and NO fences, restrictions, ect....

X2. Lets get this over with and get to the business of kicking a$$.

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

X2. Lets get this over with and get to the business of kicking a$$.

And lock you into Tranny scale for the rest of your time at SWA which you were earning on Sept 26, 2010. You then get any percentage raises that RSW pilots get. You keep your retirement match and RSW keep theirs.

Other details will need to be resolved but this is the bulk of the deal.

Its not about money so this sounds fair. Right?

Alright now. So lets go kick some a$$.

 

[SOVT]

Sorry, I can't resist...

I know there is not a single AT guy who is out to ruin the culture of SWA. We want to be a part of it.

You want to be part of a culture that worships narcissistic behavior. Your mother must be proud.

And no I never applied to Southwest.