Gary Kelly Ain't Waitin' for the DOJ!!

[S3sundowner]

Gup/Tex, I'm not saying swapa are going to cave in and give the aai group a smoking deal at the expense of the swa group. I believe that a large portion, if not all, of the aai fos will be below the bottom swa pilot on the master sl. But, with fence protection, they will keep what they have now. That is a great deal for them and they might not want to send that back. It has to work out well for the swa group or they'll vote to send it to arbitration, and swa has a MUCH better case than aii in front of an arbitrator.

 

[zman]

I will say I am not cool with it. I sit close to CJ, and what I have seen on the AAI list in relation to average age ( 1500-1700 swa guys would have a 20 year upgrade) and even AAI current contract doesn't even come close to ours! I want seniority in return. If it goes to arbitration I trust SWAPA. THIS WILL NOT GO DOWN LIKE DELTA/NWA! Sorry.

Don't worry I am sure the arbitrator will call you personally to make sure you are happy with the deal.

 

[Full of LUV]

Swapa will make you guys an offer that you might not get from an arbitrator. I'll bet the majority of aai pilots just want to get this done. As they say, a bird in the hand.....

Guppy stated it correctly, for an offer to generate enough support on aai side that it is "better than an arbitrator's", there will be much of the SWAPA list upset with the union. Therefore, if it goes to arbitration, all the PO'd pilots can complain about a third party arbitrator the rest of their careers rather than launch a series of lawsuits against their own union.

It know it's all LUV at SWAPA, but pilots have been known to sue in the past and hold their own union in contempt before. If SWAPA can negotiate an agreeable SLI and keep over 2/3 of their union's support, then I will truly believe that SWA is very different than any other airline out there.

Good Luck!

 

[27 driver]

Hopefully not too relative!
(Oh come on, it was too easy!!)

Funny part is I didn't even realize the pun until you pointed it out. I am a bit slow I guess.

 

[27 driver]

Guppy stated it correctly, for an offer to generate enough support on aai side that it is "better than an arbitrator's", there will be much of the SWAPA list upset with the union. Therefore, if it goes to arbitration, all the PO'd pilots can complain about a third party arbitrator the rest of their careers rather than launch a series of lawsuits against their own union.

It know it's all LUV at SWAPA, but pilots have been known to sue in the past and hold their own union in contempt before. If SWAPA can negotiate an agreeable SLI and keep over 2/3 of their union's support, then I will truly believe that SWA is very different than any other airline out there.

Good Luck!

If it is voted in by the majority of the SWAPA boys and girls they would have no grounds for a lawsuit. I know you can sue for anything but I doubt they would get very far with it.

 

[BoilerUP]

Posted this in another thread but it didn't get any feedback:

Just throwing this out there for folks to think about: what would be the harm to current Southwest pilots in stapling AT captains the bottom of SWA's captain list, and stapling AT FOs to the bottom of SWA's FO list? With this, everybody would keep the position they brought to the merger, would keep their longevity for pay, and SWA FOs would get the captain positions created by all attrition & growth, with the most junior SWA FO having an opportunity to upgrade before the most senior AT FO.

Sure, with the above there would be "winners" and "losers" (like there are in any SLI)...but it preserves the seats of existing AirTran CAs, gives existing SWA FOs first crack at all future captain positions, and allows AirTran FOs a substantial raise in pay to compensate for their upgrade being below all existing SWA FOs.

So, both sides - how out to lunch am I?

 

[XRMEFLYER]

So, both sides - how out to lunch am I? [/I]

Very!!!! You are an idiot.

 

[BoilerUP]

Very!!!! You are an idiot.

Okay, so explain to the guy riding the short bus wearing a dunce cap why such a proposal would be so untenable.

 

[Wesb737fo]

He probably won't explain it to you because the AAI guys have been asked to refrain from discussing SLI issues on public forums. I won't either, but, by your post Im going to assume you haven't been on a seniority list at an airline for very long. Hint ....try not to use the S word.

 

[vixin]

I'd bet you my entire net worth that it will.

Let me check my wallet. Yep got it covered.

 

[Bwipilot]

Shortbus Rider: making a seniority list of SWA Captains, AAI Captains, SWA FOs, and AAI FOs is like using a sledge hammer to fit the square peg into the round hole. There are major faults:

First, it assumes that any Captain seat is more valuable than any FO seat. I'd garner to say that a senior SWA FO would find huge fault with that (making way more $$ and having a better schedule than a junior AAI Captain).

Second, it'd would anger a huge portion of both lists. The senior AAI captains and senior AAI FOs would feel they lost more seniority than they might have and most SWA FOs would be upset that all of the AAI CAs went ahead.

 

[BoilerUP]

I was on a seniority list plenty long enough to know "staple" is a dirty word.

Personally I'm a proponent of relative seniority integrations because it provides the least negative impact relative to one's position pre-integration. That said, its quite clear that relative is untenable to SWA pilots and a pure staple with loss of position is untenable to AAI pilots. So how does one bridge the gulf between the two positions?

With the above proposal, SWA captains aren't impacted. AAI captains keep their seats and enjoy a massive pay raise, but lose their seniority relative to AAI. They can elect to keep their CA seat, or bid back to FO and have super-seniority with a pay rate above their current AAI captain rate. SWA FOs who claim to have the most to lose in this integration would get first crack at all upgrades via growth & attrition (from both SWA & AAI captain ranks), preserving their career expectations if not actually shortening their upgrade times. In my proposal, AAI FOs (especially senior ones) would be the party who gets "screwed" - their upgrade time would be pushed waaay off and senior AAI FOs would lose the benefit of their seniority. To compensate for those seniority losses, they would enjoy a massive increase in their compensation to rates greater than they could have expected even after upgrading at AAI.

Is it a perfect solution? Absolutely not. But from my outsider's view, it preserves what existed the day before the merger was announced and wouldn't negatively impact existing SWA FOs, who appear to be largely opposed to a merger with AAI.

 

[BoilerUP]

most SWA FOs would be upset that all of the AAI CAs went ahead.

Why? Other than hurt feelings, how would that harm the career expectations of current SWA FOs that existed one day before the AAI merger was announced?

Why do SWA FOs feel they are entitled to AAI CA seats?

 

[bluebound]

Most, if not all of you guys, have never been through a acquisition before. Some of the posts you read on this board are written in pure anger and frustration. The you go fly the line and you spread more anger and frustration with your co-workers. You guys are doing more harm on both sides. How do you think that will effect the outcome of this: positive or negative. This is your future guys. Don't stain the pool you are swimming in. Get involved in the unions. Open lines of communication with the people who really have seat at the table. Go to the SWAPA meet and greets and ask questions or talk to people who have (both AAI and SWA). If you want the best possible outcome for you and you co-workers (and I'm not talking about your FI buddies) then stay informed and don't spread BS. Your job and your families are at stake and I don't won't people who aren't ever involved or who don't ever work for AAI/SWA having a say in mine.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

The question was asked "how does one bridge the gap?" in the expectations of the various factions. In a word, arbitration.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Why? Other than hurt feelings, how would that harm the career expectations of current SWA FOs that existed one day before the AAI merger was announced?

Why do SWA FOs feel they are entitled to AAI CA seats?

All your arguments negate the SWA side of the equation. One side (AAI) gains tremendously and the other side (SWA) just gets to keep what they supposedly had. Kinda faulty and probably does not fall under "fair and equitable".

As far as SWA F/O's being entitled to AAI CA seats....well that is a straw argument. No one owns any seat. The lists will be integrated, fences will be put in place, then everyone will get to bid what they can hold. Pretty simple if you ask me.

All in all, who cares what you or I think! This will be decided behind closed doors. Best wishes to all and hopefully this will all go through with only a few wrinkles.

 

[texman]

Don't worry I am sure the arbitrator will call you personally to make sure you are happy with the deal.

Well talking to all my buddies at AT, they seem the only way to do this is like NWA/Delta. I just laugh.

 

[Max Powers]

Well talking to all my buddies at AT, they seem the only way to do this is like NWA/Delta. I just laugh.

Get ready for a painful reality.

 

[funnyman12]

BoilerUP the major flaw in your SLI proposal is it still could create a TWA esk scenario. The new law was passed to prevent a large amount of employees at an acquired airline from losing their jobs in the event of a furlough. Stapling 800 AAI pilots (FO'S) to the bottom of the list would create a dangerous position of job stability for the Airtran guys. An Airtran guy that has 500 pilots below him currently really has no chance of a furlough unless Airtran was on the verge of shutting the doors. An Airtran pilot with only 500 guys below him at an airline with nearly 8000 pilots would be the first to go in the event of a 10% furlough, in fact a 10% furlough would yield most Airtran FO's on the street. Of course the claim is that SWA has never furloughed.....I would not be too confident that my new SWA brothers would take a pay cut to keep 800 AAI guys from losing their job, at least for a few years. The arbitrators would see this and most likely not rule in this direction. They are going to avoid any scenario that would create a TWA/AA situation.

 

[FlyinGuy]

I disagree with you funnyman. I believe just the opposite. Once any AT pilot is on property, they are a SWA pilot. This group WILL take pay cuts before any pilot is asked to hit the street! When it is all said and done, the last guy on the list is and will be viewed first and foremost as a SWA pilot!!!