Furloughs at Delta and Northwest

[Meiguy]

In other news, Delta is now saying they will NOT be hiring this fall. This fits with everything that I was told that Delta would hire IF they did nt have an SLI.

Not sure why this makes sense. NW says they are properly staffed for the fall. At least no furloughs. DAL is getting 777's and needs people and the fact that the new JPWA would require an additional 400 pilots or so due to work rule changes. Seems like hiring would have to happen then. If what you say is true it seems to suggest that NW is overstaffed and the surplus of NW guys would fill in the lack of pilots at DAL for the new deliveries coming. Which is fine since we will be one list by then. I haven't really gotten in to the new TA but how long does DAL have to get NW staffed per the new work rules. I guess that might be the answer here. But saying there won't be any hiring seems to me that more planes will be parked.

 

[Superpilot92]

Not sure why this makes sense. NW says they are properly staffed for the fall. At least no furloughs. DAL is getting 777's and needs people and the fact that the new JPWA would require an additional 400 pilots or so due to work rule changes. Seems like hiring would have to happen then. If what you say is true it seems to suggest that NW is overstaffed and the surplus of NW guys would fill in the lack of pilots at DAL for the new deliveries coming. Which is fine since we will be one list by then. I haven't really gotten in to the new TA but how long does DAL have to get NW staffed per the new work rules. I guess that might be the answer here. But saying there won't be any hiring seems to me that more planes will be parked.

I am curious also. I looked through the TA details and didnt see what the staffing model would be for the NWA aircraft. Did anyone catch that in the TA details or does anyone know what the changes will be? If the nwa aircraft are brought up to a similar staffing model like DALs we could be short on pilots thus your right the 777s and 737s would need additional pilots. Also the Boeing projections (subject to change ) show the 787 possibly being delivered around June of next year which would require pilots also early next year. We shall see.

 

[Meiguy]

The other weird thing here is I didn't think we could intermingle pilots until we have a single certificate. Maybe this doesn't apply to a/c not already on property. But if this is true then again it would seem we would need to hire to fill these slots unless we are planning to reduce staff somewhere else. Not trying to be negative just trying to understand the change of heart.

 

[NuGuy]

Almost makes me wonder if we already have a handshake agreement on a SOC. As a training god, you probably know this stuff before we do.

Congrads on the pay rates - BTW.

Heyas Fins,

My guess is that the DOJ is going to sign off on this by October, with the DCC following in days, maybe hours immediately after.

DALtoid management types have been all over the training center in MSP last few weeks. Plans for the SOC are well underway. My guess is that the 757 will be the template for the integration.

All of the fleets at NWA are vertically integrated. Meaning they write the manuals using a standards guide. Checklists, callouts, and proceedures follow the exact same format and sequence from fleet to fleet. You could probably go from the 757 to the 747-400 with one sim and be comfortable (not saying you'd want to).

Since DALs and NWAs 757s are basically identical, they'll use that fleet as a template. My guess (yes, another) is that we'll adopt 3 core templates: DC-9/MD-88, A-319/320/330, 737,777,747,787, with the Boeings and MDs following DALs procedures, and the 'buses on NWAs. Down the road, those two will be vertically integrated, standards and procedures wise.

My guess is that they have a pretty good plan for the SOC. But this is all a WAG from me.

Nu

 

[NuGuy]

The other weird thing here is I didn't think we could intermingle pilots until we have a single certificate. Maybe this doesn't apply to a/c not already on property. But if this is true then again it would seem we would need to hire to fill these slots unless we are planning to reduce staff somewhere else. Not trying to be negative just trying to understand the change of heart.

Heyas,

You can have two certificates and one seniority list.

When new positions become available (say for a 777 or a 787), it is awarded in seniority order, like always.

If you certificate jump before the SOC, you would just need to go through 2 weeks of indoc (and then the normal AC training footprint), although I'd imagine they could trim that a bit.

There is plenty of precedent for this. Any number of outfits have done this in the past.

Nu

 

[vprMatrix]

I am curious also. I looked through the TA details and didnt see what the staffing model would be for the NWA aircraft. Did anyone catch that in the TA details or does anyone know what the changes will be? If the nwa aircraft are brought up to a similar staffing model like DALs we could be short on pilots thus your right the 777s and 737s would need additional pilots. Also the Boeing projections (subject to change ) show the 787 possibly being delivered around June of next year which would require pilots also early next year. We shall see.

Here you go.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]For a period of 12 bid periods following Bid Period 5, the ALV for the pilots in positions that were originally NWA positions will be adjusted so that at the end of 12 bid periods the ALV is in compliance with the 72 to 82 hour window. Not later than the beginning of the 24[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]th [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]bid period following Bid Period 5, all positions will be in compliance with the TLV. [/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]The staffing formula for former NWA categories must be in compliance with the PBS Staffing formula not later than the 24[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]th [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]bid period following Bid Period 5 and no premium pay adjustment (value H in the PBS Staffing Formula) will be applied until such bid period. [/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]Based on this there will be no pressing need to hire and if NW is overstaffed now the JCBA doesn't require the Delta staffing level for 1.5 - 2.5 years...... [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]Here are some other interesting items:[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]Former NWA pilots who are assigned a reserve line will continue to be scheduled in accordance with the NWA CBA through Bid Period 5. During this time they will continue to be paid the reserve guarantee and have days off in accordance with the NWA CBA. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]NW pilots will receive an additional 5 hours per month reserve guarantee for 5 months (at the new "parity pay rates"). Delta Pilots will be getting 5 hrs less per month for a loss of apx $1250 - $2000 for the 5 months....:beer: [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]A former NWA pilot who has failed to complete two or more initial, transition, upgrade or requalification training prior to CBAID will be considered to have only failed to complete one program of such training. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]..... [/FONT]​

 

[General Lee]

If the list is done and it is ratio dynamic as has been suggested do not assume DC9 F/O will be the bottom seniority numbers. We could easily have a situation where the bottom #'s go something like 3xDC9 F/O, 2x737 F/O, and so on, and if there were furloughs announced they would come off the bottom in that order. You are assuming that all bottom positions will be on NWA acft. I wouldn't be so sure of that.

Your number is your number, and furlough will be based on that, not what your position is.

Again, if there are fences and they only park the DC9s, (and the DC9s are fenced), only NWA pilots or newhires after the DCC would be sent to compass.
Also, if Delta only wanted to dump the DC9s, would they HAVE TO park MD88s (if they didn't want to) to satisfy the seniority deal you are saying? What about not having the combined certificate for 6-12 months from the FAA?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I am sure that if we furlough it will be equally shared. Probably 300-350 from each side. It will not be the merger, it will be fuel. Voting No will not change this.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fact is that the recalls do their recurrent/INDOC on a CD. It could be done here. I would much prefer to have it done that way. There is a lot of mess to do it that way, but it is quite possible

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I have to say that having the NWA displacements canceled makes me nervous. Why? Because it could just be their way of saving training events on pilots that they know they will kick to the street after this is voted on. Not ratified, but just a pass vote. They could get around this whole furlough from what side and what list issue if it is done prior to DCC. That way all of the guys let go (read all new hires) would be at the bottom of the list either way.
Just thinking out loud. May I am nuts, but this thought is one that I keep going over.

 

[General Lee]

I am sure that if we furlough it will be equally shared. Probably 300-350 from each side. It will not be the merger, it will be fuel. Voting No will not change this.

Which Delta planes will be parked do you think? What about the 737-700s and 777s that are coming?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

You guys keep talking about Furloughs like they have been announced. As of right now no furloughs are planned and to offset the chances of a furlough the NWA side has already established NUMEROUS plans to get some of the old guys to punch out. They did this to COA in the event of either side undermining the no furlough clauses. we have about 300-400 people with papers that are on the fence on whether to leave or not. The company knows these people are going to punch out as soon as they get their equity. Also the guys on the fence have the option of leaving pre-merger and getting their medical and dental coverage covered through retirement. If they stay they will be looking at expensive medical coverage in retirement. is DALPA looking at tne same programs? We'll see.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

More detail will be forthcoming. There are a lot of ifs general. I have realized that things are moving a lot quicker that we realize. FWIW no matter what happens there is no way to get away from this freight train.
Vote no on the JPWA and NWA will probably get what is in it and we will get LOA 19. We will be divided and that is not a good thing. The SLI will happen no matter what we or anyone else tries to do to derail it. Many may not like it, but the TFA basically spells it out.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Though vague there is a MOA that states that DAL and the association will look in to early outs. That says something guys.

 

[Superpilot92]

More detail will be forthcoming. There are a lot of ifs general. I have realized that things are moving a lot quicker that we realize. FWIW no matter what happens there is no way to get away from this freight train.
Vote no on the JPWA and NWA will probably get what is in it and we will get LOA 19. We will be divided and that is not a good thing. The SLI will happen no matter what we or anyone else tries to do to derail it. Many may not like it, but the TFA basically spells it out.

Exactly. NWA will get our own "LOA 19" but it will be the gains in JPWA. The SLI will be done in the same process regardless of the outcome with the TA. We need to take the gains and run help build this company and pilot group up so we can get the industry leading contract when our negotiating environment is better.

 

[exeagle]

You guys keep talking about Furloughs like they have been announced. As of right now no furloughs are planned and to offset the chances of a furlough the NWA side has already established NUMEROUS plans to get some of the old guys to punch out. They did this to COA in the event of either side undermining the no furlough clauses. we have about 300-400 people with papers that are on the fence on whether to leave or not. The company knows these people are going to punch out as soon as they get their equity. Also the guys on the fence have the option of leaving pre-merger and getting their medical and dental coverage covered through retirement. If they stay they will be looking at expensive medical coverage in retirement. is DALPA looking at tne same programs? We'll see.

Just curious, how do you know we have 300 to 400 guys on the fence about leaving?

 

[~~~^~~~]

.... deleted, I'm not sure.

 

[DTW320]

You guys keep talking about Furloughs like they have been announced. As of right now no furloughs are planned and to offset the chances of a furlough the NWA side has already established NUMEROUS plans to get some of the old guys to punch out. They did this to COA in the event of either side undermining the no furlough clauses. we have about 300-400 people with papers that are on the fence on whether to leave or not. The company knows these people are going to punch out as soon as they get their equity. Also the guys on the fence have the option of leaving pre-merger and getting their medical and dental coverage covered through retirement. If they stay they will be looking at expensive medical coverage in retirement. is DALPA looking at tne same programs? We'll see.

This is from the latest Council 20 update clipped from a long discussion of the pros/cons of the TA:
·

Retiree health insurance is the BIG problem. The DAL plans have NO “premium sharing” (active and retired pilots) for pre-age 60 retirees (resulting in a 250% to 400% increase in premiums); and age 60-64 retirees pay a 50% shared premium on a split risk pool limited to that age category (rather than the blended pool currently in use for the NWA plan) leading to a 200% to 300% increase in premiums.
·Pilots who retire before DCC willbe grandfathered under the NWA Plan (and premiums).

This needs to be posted on every base bulletin board/mailroom/left seat clipboard at NWA.

NWA Seniors (to me anyway): Get out now while you still can!!

 

[DTW320]

Hence the supercharged, JATO bottle assisted, Mach 3 drive to get an SLI, ASAP.

This, also from our Council 20 update:

Seniority List Integration (SLI).
In the meantime, the seniority list integration process will begin (again). On July 8, the NWA and DAL “Representatives” (as discussed earlier) will begin a 30-day process to attempt to negotiate a seniority list. The DAL “Representatives” are expected to include the DAL MEC CH and others rather than just specifically their Merger Committee. If an agreement cannot be reached on a combined seniority list by August 8, they will then submit the issues in dispute to a three-member arbitration panel. The arbitration panel will be bound to deliver a single, complete seniority list decision by November 20, 2008, with the option of writing a detailed justification NLT the December 20, 2008.

The stated goal of all parties is to create a single list that will be in place before the Date of Corporate Closing. The joint contract will not become effective without a joint seniority list (with some possible exceptions limited to a DAL management breach of the agreement or rejection of the seniority list).

 

[Superpilot92]

This is from the latest Council 20 update clipped from a long discussion of the pros/cons of the TA:
·This needs to be posted on every base bulletin board/mailroom/left seat clipboard at NWA.

Retiree health insurance is the BIG problem. The DAL plans have NO “premium sharing” (active and retired pilots) for pre-age 60 retirees (resulting in a 250% to 400% increase in premiums); and age 60-64 retirees pay a 50% shared premium on a split risk pool limited to that age category (rather than the blended pool currently in use for the NWA plan) leading to a 200% to 300% increase in premiums.
·Pilots who retire before DCC willbe grandfathered under the NWA Plan (and premiums).

NWA Seniors (to me anyway): Get out now while you still can!!

Exactly!! this will get a lot of guys. They dont want $1000+ dollars a month taken out of their retirement per month just to stick around and fly till they die.