Furloughs at Delta and Northwest

[ACL65PILOT]

I am sure that at the end of the day revenue will not matter in the SLI. Wide body A/C, and a whole slew of other things will.

 

[kiteflyer]

DC9's or any mainline aircraft taking flying back is good for the industry. Its the first step to correcting the big scope mistakes. Lets hope you're right. Cheers :beer:

After keeping an eye on this board for many years, I can't believe I'm going to say this. General, you're right.

How about taking it one step further. Negotiate seniority numbers for the Compass pilots in the new Delta. Compass pilots are already part of the NWA group. They pay union dues to NWA, work under a contract negotiated by NWA, are represented by NWA officers and are already at the de facto bottom of NWA's list. All that is missing is a seniority number.

Capturing 76 seat flying at mainline would go a long way toward "fixing" Alpa's greatest mistake.

 

[Terry Hunter]

Capturing 76 seat flying at mainline would go a long way toward "fixing" Alpa's greatest mistake.

Agreed, and thus, the CRJ900's at Mesaba should be included as well. Thus, 36 planes x approx. 10 pilots/plane should equate to 360 pilots from Mesaba being placed on the new list...

 

[NuGuy]

I am sure that at the end of the day revenue will not matter in the SLI. Wide body A/C, and a whole slew of other things will.

A some DAL guys seem to want a fence around the DC-9s. The argument is that if they are parked, those pilots should go first.

What about replacement aircraft? If you fence the DC-9, then ANY aircraft with 125 seats or less (note that 319s have 124) that DAL subsequently gets should be considered "replacement aircraft", thus permitting those fenced pilots first dibs at re-upgrade or recall first. Any previous DAL pilots would be excluded from bidding those aircraft OR if furloughed, being recalled into those aircraft.

Fences work both ways.

This is precisely the reason the Robert's award had subsequent arbitrations. Lots of unintended consequences. Plenty of previous precedent for what could be considered a "replacement" aircraft (IE 330 for a DC10).

Nu

 

[Superpilot92]

DL brings in 50% more revenue than NW. Cash on hand may be about the same but DL has been spending like crazy buying and leasing new airframes, putting new interiors in the entire fleet and in-seat entertainment systems in 50% of the fleet.

2007 Revenue

DL 19.2 B
NW 12.5 B

DAL is bigger so i would hope so. Like i said its a moot point and its pointless to argue about it.

 

[Superpilot92]

A some DAL guys seem to want a fence around the DC-9s. The argument is that if they are parked, those pilots should go first.

What about replacement aircraft? If you fence the DC-9, then ANY aircraft with 125 seats or less (note that 319s have 124) that DAL subsequently gets should be considered "replacement aircraft", thus permitting those fenced pilots first dibs at re-upgrade or recall first. Any previous DAL pilots would be excluded from bidding those aircraft OR if furloughed, being recalled into those aircraft.

Fences work both ways.

This is precisely the reason the Robert's award had subsequent arbitrations. Lots of unintended consequences. Plenty of previous precedent for what could be considered a "replacement" aircraft (IE 330 for a DC10).

Nu

Fences do nothing but restrict the new DAL from getting all the necessary "synergies" out of this merger.

 

[Noserider76]

DAL is bigger so i would hope so. Like i said its a moot point and its pointless to argue about it.

I agree. It's just that you stated they bring in about the same amount of revenue and I've seen many mis-statements about DL's debt, balloon payments, and finances in general. Not saying you would do it but some like to mis-state the facts to further their agenda.

Nothing anyone writes here is going to have any effect on the very ugly before and aftermath of the almost certain to be arbitrated SLI.

 

[Noserider76]

Fences do nothing but restrict the new DAL from getting all the necessary "synergies" out of this merger.

Disagree. They will do wonders to protect the current expectations and quality of life of all the participants.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I would venture to guess, and it is only a guess that if we get 737's they will be replacement jets. Until there is an SLI I would guess that the NWA side would get the seats if they replace the 9.
But again it depends on how it is negotiated. If the order is placed for the DAL side or before the joint PWA and DCC then all bets are off.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fences make good neighbors, but they also lead to people misjudging what their neighbors are doing when they cannot see them.
There are good things and bad things to a fence.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I would venture to guess, and it is only a guess that if we get 737's they will be replacement jets. Until there is an SLI I would guess that the NWA side would get the seats if they replace the 9.
But again it depends on how it is negotiated. If the order is placed for the DAL side or before the joint PWA and DCC then all bets are off.

Doesn't LOA19 award growth 60/40? I was thinking that LOA 19 actually provided protections for both sides to prevent whipsaw with retire and replace schemes.

I don't see a different 737 program being started for NWA, or a new A319/320 program being started at Delta.

My guess is that the DC9's will be replaced by established regional jet programs & a few 737's. Of course, I support one list with Compass and the others.

 

[Superpilot92]

Fences make good neighbors, but they also lead to people misjudging what their neighbors are doing when they cannot see them.
There are good things and bad things to a fence.

Agreed. however they also restrict the company from gaining ALL the benefits of this. I don't think there will be any reason to fence any aircraft other than some peoples fragile egos. The benefits of a fence anywhere in the combined company wont do anything but distract from the common goal of complete integration.

 

[Superpilot92]

Doesn't LOA19 award growth 60/40? I was thinking that LOA 19 actually provided protections for both sides to prevent whipsaw with retire and replace schemes. retire and replace schemes are why fences arent going to help us gain complete integration and get past the division asap.

I don't see a different 737 program being started for NWA, or a new A319/320 program being started at Delta. I agree hence why its pointless to fence anything.

My guess is that the DC9's will be replaced by established regional jet programs & a few 737's. I am guessing the 50ish remaining dc9s will be around for a while in place of the 50 seaters until mainline gets the dc9s replaced. Of course, I support one list with Compass and the others.

LOA 19 wont mean anything once the joint contract is completed and signed off.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fin;
I should have spelled that out better. It does and FDJ2 reminded me of that.
What I was referring to is DC-9's parked and 737 delivered. All bets are off for the NWA folks. Absent a joint PWA LOA 19 prevails. I would venture to guess that due to the issues of the LOA for the NWA pilot our management will do everything they can to avoid announcing more airframes until the joint PWA is ratified. Now if that is not possible they will just deal with the bad blood. They made that choice once, and I am willing to bet that they will do it again, if they need to.

 

[Noserider76]

Agreed. however they also restrict the company from gaining ALL the benefits of this. I don't think there will be any reason to fence any aircraft other than some peoples fragile egos. The benefits of a fence anywhere in the combined company wont do anything but distract from the common goal of complete integration.

Nothing at all to do with fragile egos. It's about protecting everyone's current quality of life and expectations during a transition period. Previous commuters flooding a desireable base or piece of equipment will create bad feelings on one side and a windfall for the other. The company will of course want no restrictions but that's tough. Five years seems like a reasonable amount of time for people to adjust. A deal this big needs to minimize the impact on the employees lives as much as possible and phase in the changes to keep people focused on the job, not the changes.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

quite a valid point. The million dollar question is whether management will entertain that notion this time around.
In Feb. they were willing to give us pay incentives to not have fences. Will they again in Jun?

 

[Superpilot92]

Nothing at all to do with fragile egos. It's about protecting everyone's current quality of life and expectations during a transition period. Previous commuters flooding a desireable base or piece of equipment will create bad feelings on one side and a windfall for the other. The company will of course want no restrictions but that's tough. Five years seems like a reasonable amount of time for people to adjust. A deal this big needs to minimize the impact on the employees lives as much as possible and phase in the changes to keep people focused on the job, not the changes.

I agree to an extent but there are negative aspects to fences that would effect both sides not to mention effect the benefits to the company in general. It further divides the pilot groups and brings up all questions involved with how future aircraft orders are managed. There isnt going to be a bump flush for anyone so why the worry. Both sides will have people who move around to different bases it wont just be NWA people.

 

[Noserider76]

I agree to an extent but there are negative aspects to fences that would effect both sides not to mention effect the benefits to the company in general. It further divides the pilot groups and brings up all questions involved with how future aircraft orders are managed. There isnt going to be a bump flush for anyone so why the worry. Both sides will have people who move around to different bases it wont just be NWA people.

There's nothing to stop the company from flying any piece of equipment from any base except a little deadhead/credit time. Fences do not have to divide the group at all. There will be agreements on how to handle new orders. It should give both sides a warm feeling that at least they can count on life as they know it for a period of time, unless there were those who thought all their commuting problems were about to be solved. No bump/flush is a given but watching your seniority deteriorate bid after bid is a non-starter.

 

[clippyrip]

Delta Air Lines Reports March 2008 Quarter Financial Results

As of March 31, 2008, Delta had $3.6 billion in unrestricted liquidity, including $1 billion available under its revolving credit facility.

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=11053

Northwest Airlines Reports First Quarter 2008 Results

Northwest ended the quarter with $3.2 billion in unrestricted cash and $484 million in restricted cash.

http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/newsc/2008/pr042320081987.html

Also from that same article was the losses for that quarter. I'm sure you just forgot to put that in, so here you go:


Delta’s reported net loss for the March 2008 quarter was $6.4 billion, or $16.15 per diluted share.

Northwest Airlines today reported a first quarter 2008 net loss of $4.1 billion, or $15.78 per share.

 

[Noserider76]

quite a valid point. The million dollar question is whether management will entertain that notion this time around.
In Feb. they were willing to give us pay incentives to not have fences. Will they again in Jun?

Money might have been a factor in a negotiated SLI but there's almost no chance of that now. We'll have an arbitrated settlement and fences should be an integral part of our arguement.