Furloughs at Delta and Northwest

[clippyrip]

NWA brings more pilots than pilot jobs.

We also bring an almost equal amount of cash on hand and less debt. Try remembering that when you complain.

 

[General Lee]

We also bring an almost equal amount of cash on hand and less debt. Try remembering that when you complain.

But hey, your senior guys have a frozen pension...... I wouldn't brag you have an equal amount of cash on hand while your pay rates and work rules were inferior.....please try to remember that.... Steenland really appreciates your sacrfice during BK, and that extra cash means all the world to him. How much of the merger pie "loot" did we have to use up to bring you up to our rates and give you our better rules? Thanks for the DC9s, though...


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[clippyrip]

But hey, your senior guys have a frozen pension...... I wouldn't brag you have an equal amount of cash on hand while your pay rates and work rules were inferior.....please try to remember that.... Steenland really appreciates your sacrfice during BK, and that extra cash means all the world to him. How much of the merger pie "loot" did we have to use up to bring you up to our rates and give you our better rules? Thanks for the DC9s, though...


Bye Bye--General Lee

I understand we all have things to be proud of and things that we are not. I just hate to see some Delta boys start bitching about the deal as if they got screwed. They were happy with LOA 19 before NWA joined up and then did an about face on it once we joined on. Oh no, NWA is getting a bigger raise, boo hoo, I want more money, I'm gong to vote it down, boo hoo. Its all ego and its lame. Everyone is getting a raise, good deal. Yes, initially NWAs will be bigger, big deal. Such petty cr@p to be whining about. For those that feel that way, like Speedbird, I have a little viloin that is playing your tune.

 

[tomgoodman]

Minefield

Some Delta pilots clearly feel there is an advantage in shooting down the JPWA to get the SLI put back in front of the contract. I dare say that they control the internal debate right now. The current expectation is that the JPWA will be voted down. (current, as in "subject to change")

Politically every option seems risky given the USAPA precedent.

Fins,

You're right about the political risk, which all MECs hate, and that's why I think the list will end up in arbitration anyway. I fear that shooting down the JPWA would only delay the inevitable, and management would take the opportunity to substantially reduce its next JPWA offer, (if there is one). If they or the creditors are having second thoughts about the merger, this would be a perfect excuse to call it off.

 

[IXLR8]

Steenland really appreciates your sacrfice during BK, and that extra cash means all the world to him.
Bye Bye--General Lee

As I am sure Anderson will enjoy his cash you put forward in the future...enjoy.

 

[General Lee]

As I am sure Anderson will enjoy his cash you put forward in the future...enjoy.

Ummmm, ooooooh-kay? What? Do you want me to drive a Delorean Back to the Future? Huh?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[brainhurts]

I wasn't talking about who is dressed up, but rather, the content of most posts to the right of that clown.

Yes, he is a tool.

 

[Superpilot92]

The latest from the NWA side. Good News!!

“ No involuntary, out-of-category, displacements or layoffs will occur as a result of the 2008 fall schedule reduction. Involuntary, out-of-category, displacements previously published for October 2008 will, at pilot option, be reversed. A pilot previously identified to be displaced for October 2008 will be contacted to elect whether he wishes to remain in his position or to be displaced. A pilot electing displacement shall retain the attendant 24.E.10. recall rights to which he is entitled in the Agreement.”

 

[Redmeat]

“ No involuntary, out-of-category, displacements or layoffs will occur as a result of the 2008 fall schedule reduction. Involuntary, out-of-category, displacements previously published for October 2008 will, at pilot option, be reversed. A pilot previously identified to be displaced for October 2008 will be contacted to elect whether he wishes to remain in his position or to be displaced. A pilot electing displacement shall retain the attendant 24.E.10. recall rights to which he is entitled in the Agreement.”

Yeah, I'm sure the displacement announcement was a mistake by some mid-level manager drone trying to do the right thing managerial wise.

Broke the *no negativity until the merger is complete referendum*

They gotta get everyone back into Kumbaya mode now.

 

[cessnapilot]

Thanks for the DC9s, though...


Bye Bye--General Lee

Your welcome!
cp

 

[Occam's Razor]

Yeah, I'm sure the displacement announcement was a mistake by some mid-level manager drone trying to do the right thing managerial wise.

Not a mistake. It was probably accurate at the time, but circumstances changed.

1. The plan for dealing with the ridiculous run-up of fuel prices has changed. It changed because the plans of the competition changed.

2. There was influence from decision makers outside NWA who weren't consulted while the original plan was being constructed.

 

[Noserider76]

“ No involuntary, out-of-category, displacements or layoffs will occur as a result of the 2008 fall schedule

Good news indeed. We get used to the displacement and furlough word being thrown around in this crappy business but it's generally a life changing event for the person it affects.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

2. There was influence from decision makers outside NWA who weren't consulted while the original plan was being constructed.

OOooooo...do elaborate....

 

[Superpilot92]

OOooooo...do elaborate....

I would guess that means Mother Delta

 

[Flyer1015]

Yes, he is a tool.

Ha.

Still pis$ed from our heated arguments from over 6 months ago?

Yeah, I know it must hurt. You resorting to namecalling only proves that point.

Grow up.

 

[Flyer1015]

I don't know who that is, could you spill the beans on that guy? Thanks.

Phil Trenary, the CEO of Pinnacle Airlines. Or should I say, Pinnacle Airlines Corporation.

He created a subshell/holding company BS to circumvent our scope when it came to buying Colgan.

PT the Clown lives in infamy. He's hated by pretty much every pilot at Pinnacle.

 

[Flyer1015]

I wasn't talking about who is dressed up, but rather, the content of most posts to the right of that clown.

I post valid points regarding the potential outcome of flowthrough/flowback agreements, and suddenly, I'm the bad guy?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Not a mistake. It was probably accurate at the time, but circumstances changed.

1. The plan for dealing with the ridiculous run-up of fuel prices has changed. It changed because the plans of the competition changed.

2. There was influence from decision makers outside NWA who weren't consulted while the original plan was being constructed.

Occam:

There might be another angle at play. While we have separate operating certificates we can not fly each other's airplanes. That means furloughs and displacements can't be done (in order) until we have the SOC.

The time line is very, very, quick. ACL said it well, when he said we will be talking about our new seniority numbers while we eat Thanksgiving Turkey.

In other news, Delta is now saying they will NOT be hiring this fall. This fits with everything that I was told that Delta would hire IF they did nt have an SLI.

Almost makes me wonder if we already have a handshake agreement on a SOC. As a training god, you probably know this stuff before we do.

Congrads on the pay rates - BTW.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I post valid points regarding the potential outcome of flowthrough/flowback agreements, and suddenly, I'm the bad guy?

You committed the cardinal sin of question convential wisdom within ALPA....That will draw cheap attacks from the bleachers.....

 

[Fly4hire]

Occam:

There might be another angle at play. While we have separate operating certificates we can not fly each other's airplanes. That means furloughs and displacements can't be done (in order) until we have the SOC.

If the list is done and it is ratio dynamic as has been suggested do not assume DC9 F/O will be the bottom seniority numbers. We could easily have a situation where the bottom #'s go something like 3xDC9 F/O, 2x737 F/O, and so on, and if there were furloughs announced they would come off the bottom in that order. You are assuming that all bottom positions will be on NWA acft. I wouldn't be so sure of that.

Your number is your number, and furlough will be based on that, not what your position is.

 

[Meiguy]

In other news, Delta is now saying they will NOT be hiring this fall. This fits with everything that I was told that Delta would hire IF they did nt have an SLI.

Not sure why this makes sense. NW says they are properly staffed for the fall. At least no furloughs. DAL is getting 777's and needs people and the fact that the new JPWA would require an additional 400 pilots or so due to work rule changes. Seems like hiring would have to happen then. If what you say is true it seems to suggest that NW is overstaffed and the surplus of NW guys would fill in the lack of pilots at DAL for the new deliveries coming. Which is fine since we will be one list by then. I haven't really gotten in to the new TA but how long does DAL have to get NW staffed per the new work rules. I guess that might be the answer here. But saying there won't be any hiring seems to me that more planes will be parked.

 

[Superpilot92]

Not sure why this makes sense. NW says they are properly staffed for the fall. At least no furloughs. DAL is getting 777's and needs people and the fact that the new JPWA would require an additional 400 pilots or so due to work rule changes. Seems like hiring would have to happen then. If what you say is true it seems to suggest that NW is overstaffed and the surplus of NW guys would fill in the lack of pilots at DAL for the new deliveries coming. Which is fine since we will be one list by then. I haven't really gotten in to the new TA but how long does DAL have to get NW staffed per the new work rules. I guess that might be the answer here. But saying there won't be any hiring seems to me that more planes will be parked.

I am curious also. I looked through the TA details and didnt see what the staffing model would be for the NWA aircraft. Did anyone catch that in the TA details or does anyone know what the changes will be? If the nwa aircraft are brought up to a similar staffing model like DALs we could be short on pilots thus your right the 777s and 737s would need additional pilots. Also the Boeing projections (subject to change ) show the 787 possibly being delivered around June of next year which would require pilots also early next year. We shall see.

 

[Meiguy]

The other weird thing here is I didn't think we could intermingle pilots until we have a single certificate. Maybe this doesn't apply to a/c not already on property. But if this is true then again it would seem we would need to hire to fill these slots unless we are planning to reduce staff somewhere else. Not trying to be negative just trying to understand the change of heart.

 

[NuGuy]

Almost makes me wonder if we already have a handshake agreement on a SOC. As a training god, you probably know this stuff before we do.

Congrads on the pay rates - BTW.

Heyas Fins,

My guess is that the DOJ is going to sign off on this by October, with the DCC following in days, maybe hours immediately after.

DALtoid management types have been all over the training center in MSP last few weeks. Plans for the SOC are well underway. My guess is that the 757 will be the template for the integration.

All of the fleets at NWA are vertically integrated. Meaning they write the manuals using a standards guide. Checklists, callouts, and proceedures follow the exact same format and sequence from fleet to fleet. You could probably go from the 757 to the 747-400 with one sim and be comfortable (not saying you'd want to).

Since DALs and NWAs 757s are basically identical, they'll use that fleet as a template. My guess (yes, another) is that we'll adopt 3 core templates: DC-9/MD-88, A-319/320/330, 737,777,747,787, with the Boeings and MDs following DALs procedures, and the 'buses on NWAs. Down the road, those two will be vertically integrated, standards and procedures wise.

My guess is that they have a pretty good plan for the SOC. But this is all a WAG from me.

Nu

 

[NuGuy]

The other weird thing here is I didn't think we could intermingle pilots until we have a single certificate. Maybe this doesn't apply to a/c not already on property. But if this is true then again it would seem we would need to hire to fill these slots unless we are planning to reduce staff somewhere else. Not trying to be negative just trying to understand the change of heart.

Heyas,

You can have two certificates and one seniority list.

When new positions become available (say for a 777 or a 787), it is awarded in seniority order, like always.

If you certificate jump before the SOC, you would just need to go through 2 weeks of indoc (and then the normal AC training footprint), although I'd imagine they could trim that a bit.

There is plenty of precedent for this. Any number of outfits have done this in the past.

Nu

 

[vprMatrix]

I am curious also. I looked through the TA details and didnt see what the staffing model would be for the NWA aircraft. Did anyone catch that in the TA details or does anyone know what the changes will be? If the nwa aircraft are brought up to a similar staffing model like DALs we could be short on pilots thus your right the 777s and 737s would need additional pilots. Also the Boeing projections (subject to change ) show the 787 possibly being delivered around June of next year which would require pilots also early next year. We shall see.

Here you go.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]For a period of 12 bid periods following Bid Period 5, the ALV for the pilots in positions that were originally NWA positions will be adjusted so that at the end of 12 bid periods the ALV is in compliance with the 72 to 82 hour window. Not later than the beginning of the 24[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]th [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]bid period following Bid Period 5, all positions will be in compliance with the TLV. [/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]The staffing formula for former NWA categories must be in compliance with the PBS Staffing formula not later than the 24[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]th [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]bid period following Bid Period 5 and no premium pay adjustment (value H in the PBS Staffing Formula) will be applied until such bid period. [/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]Based on this there will be no pressing need to hire and if NW is overstaffed now the JCBA doesn't require the Delta staffing level for 1.5 - 2.5 years...... [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]Here are some other interesting items:[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]Former NWA pilots who are assigned a reserve line will continue to be scheduled in accordance with the NWA CBA through Bid Period 5. During this time they will continue to be paid the reserve guarantee and have days off in accordance with the NWA CBA. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]NW pilots will receive an additional 5 hours per month reserve guarantee for 5 months (at the new "parity pay rates"). Delta Pilots will be getting 5 hrs less per month for a loss of apx $1250 - $2000 for the 5 months....:beer: [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]A former NWA pilot who has failed to complete two or more initial, transition, upgrade or requalification training prior to CBAID will be considered to have only failed to complete one program of such training. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, serif]..... [/FONT]​

 

[General Lee]

If the list is done and it is ratio dynamic as has been suggested do not assume DC9 F/O will be the bottom seniority numbers. We could easily have a situation where the bottom #'s go something like 3xDC9 F/O, 2x737 F/O, and so on, and if there were furloughs announced they would come off the bottom in that order. You are assuming that all bottom positions will be on NWA acft. I wouldn't be so sure of that.

Your number is your number, and furlough will be based on that, not what your position is.

Again, if there are fences and they only park the DC9s, (and the DC9s are fenced), only NWA pilots or newhires after the DCC would be sent to compass.
Also, if Delta only wanted to dump the DC9s, would they HAVE TO park MD88s (if they didn't want to) to satisfy the seniority deal you are saying? What about not having the combined certificate for 6-12 months from the FAA?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I am sure that if we furlough it will be equally shared. Probably 300-350 from each side. It will not be the merger, it will be fuel. Voting No will not change this.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fact is that the recalls do their recurrent/INDOC on a CD. It could be done here. I would much prefer to have it done that way. There is a lot of mess to do it that way, but it is quite possible

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I have to say that having the NWA displacements canceled makes me nervous. Why? Because it could just be their way of saving training events on pilots that they know they will kick to the street after this is voted on. Not ratified, but just a pass vote. They could get around this whole furlough from what side and what list issue if it is done prior to DCC. That way all of the guys let go (read all new hires) would be at the bottom of the list either way.
Just thinking out loud. May I am nuts, but this thought is one that I keep going over.