Furloughs at Delta and Northwest

[Bob_Sacamano]

Not until after the fact. I do recall there being quite a bit of discussion on the ALPA forum about that. But within just a few days, the company stated that any new-hire would have to resign their seniority numbers, so that pretty much ended the debate.

I don't recall any election margins. But that was just one issue. (Remember this was right after 9/11.) I think it might be a bit much to draw the conclusion that resigning a seniority number was the only thing the pilot group was endorsing or censuring the MEC for.

Was the membership aware of the actions taken on their behalf by the MEC? Did anyone object to the actions taken by the MEC? Once again didn’t the MEC get re-elected by a large margin? Sound like the membership approved of the actions of the MEC to me.

 

[Jmoney]

Luckily, I've always had an outside business interest, so I was fine. And I fly for a much more secure airline now. But it's nice that you're still making fun of the fact that some pilots were on assistance. Real classy.

Pay no attention to 737/General Lee..... They are one in the same. This freakshow has actually posted about 15000 times here in the vain hope that anyone gives a rats butt what he thinks. Definitely not a stable person.

The really funny part is that I know exactly who he really is, and exactly what he does for DAL.... Cat's out of the bag-idiot! Oh, BTW-how is that mentoring going these days, BM-hmmmm? Not too much business, I see.... Well, best of luck, pal-freaks like you need some sort of distraction to draw you away from here.

At any rate, 737/General's only mission in life is to run around threatening and berating anyone who does not buy his B.S. about Delta taking over the known universe and flying to Mars one day soon. You may note that whenever someone attacks the General, 737 jumps right in to defend him... A very weak good-cop, bad-cop sort of thing.... Plainly sad, truth be told.

-Just be glad you don't ever have to share a cockpit with this moron! I feel really sorry for anyone who has to fly around listening to this fool all day!

 

[tblosser]

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I AM suggesting that while our MEC was working with the DAL MEC to try and define the struck work, the Delta Chairman said F us, and that Delta would do whatever they wanted.

I don’t understand. Were we working to define struck work or were we telling y’all to pound sand? I am sure there was some harsh language used given the heated nature of the subject matter but insinuating that we were flying struck work is a bit much.

 

[tblosser]

Not until after the fact. I do recall there being quite a bit of discussion on the ALPA forum about that. But within just a few days, the company stated that any new-hire would have to resign their seniority numbers, so that pretty much ended the debate.


So Comair management went along with the Comair MEC on seniority resignation after the MEC made it know that hiring furloughed Delta pilots with out resignation would create an unsafe condition in the cockpit. If you doubt that this was the opinion of the MEC I will be happy to forward you a copy of Captain Lawson’s memo on the subject.

I don't recall any election margins. But that was just one issue. (Remember this was right after 9/11.) I think it might be a bit much to draw the conclusion that resigning a seniority number was the only thing the pilot group was endorsing or censuring the MEC for.

So the answer to my question about any opposition form the rank and file is no. Thanks.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

For the second time, I didn't insinuate Delta pilots were flying struck work. You're simply trying to put words in my mouth.

My example is to refute that the Delta group bent over backwards to support us during our strike. One moron even suggested that Delta pilots opened OUR strike center. The simple truth is that your MEC was trying to control the Comair group, without showing anywhere near the support of that almost every other major airline showed us.

I don’t understand. Were we working to define struck work or were we telling y’all to pound sand? I am sure there was some harsh language used given the heated nature of the subject matter but insinuating that we were flying struck work is a bit much.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

There was plenty of opposition. But I guess you're looking to impugn the entire Comair pilot group for not recalling the MEC over an issue that was out of our hands (i.e. a corporate decision), go right ahead.

So the answer to my question about any opposition form the rank and file is no. Thanks.

 

[tblosser]

For the second time, I didn't insinuate Delta pilots were flying struck work. You're simply trying to put words in my mouth.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to try and put words in your mouth I was just trying to understand what you were saying

My example is to refute that the Delta group bent over backwards to support us during our strike. One moron even suggested that Delta pilots opened OUR strike center. The simple truth is that your MEC was trying to control the Comair group, without showing anywhere near the support of that almost every other major airline showed us.

Could we have done more to help y’all? I am sure we could but we did do a lot during your strike, both at the MEC and individual pilot level. I am sure the egos on both sides got in the way of helping the individual pilots during a difficult time.

 

[tblosser]

There was plenty of opposition. But I guess you're looking to impugn the entire Comair pilot group for not recalling the MEC over an issue that was out of our hands (i.e. a corporate decision), go right ahead.

There may have been plenty of internal opposition but form the outside it sure did not look like it. This is why I asked if there was ever any effort, regardless of how futile the effort may have been, to oppose the MEC’s decision. I am not looking to cast the entire Comair pilot group as being in lock step agreement over this issue or any other. Nor would I have expected the rank and file to attempt to recall the MEC over this issue. However it is disingenuous for you to suggest that the opinion of the MEC had no impact on the final corporate decision.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

With any stressful situation, there's always more that could be done. But that should never take away from the genuinely nice things that were done by a lot of folks.

But as an example, there simply was a lot more financial support from almost every other airline than Delta. We kept track of it. Since American wasn't part of ALPA, they didn't pay an assessment. But we had something like eleven pages of names from contributors from American. And there were like eight pages of contributors from Northwest and United. We had UPS guys who would pick up extra trips and donate the pay from the entire trip to our fund. At the end of the strike, there was less than half a page of donations from Delta pilots.

And obviously nothing was required. But when you factor that in with the fact that your MEC chairman said "F U" when we tried to define struck work, and that we did get heckled by Delta pilots while our guys were walking on the picket lines, it's not too hard to understand why there were hard feelings.

Could we have done more to help y’all? I am sure we could but we did do a lot during your strike, both at the MEC and individual pilot level. I am sure the egos on both sides got in the way of helping the individual pilots during a difficult time.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Oh, the MEC's letter may very well have impacted Comair's decision. But I'm 99% convinced that decision came down to the System Chief Pilot. I don't know if he's even still at Comair, but I recall Steve Briner saying he wouldn't hire anybody if they wouldn't resign their number. He mentioned training costs for a guy who was guaranteed to be a short-timer.

There may have been plenty of internal opposition but form the outside it sure did not look like it. This is why I asked if there was ever any effort, regardless of how futile the effort may have been, to oppose the MEC’s decision. I am not looking to cast the entire Comair pilot group as being in lock step agreement over this issue or any other. Nor would I have expected the rank and file to attempt to recall the MEC over this issue. However it is disingenuous for you to suggest that the opinion of the MEC had no impact on the final corporate decision.

 

[tblosser]

With any stressful situation, there's always more that could be done. But that should never take away from the genuinely nice things that were done by a lot of folks.

But as an example, there simply was a lot more financial support from almost every other airline than Delta. We kept track of it. Since American wasn't part of ALPA, they didn't pay an assessment. But we had something like eleven pages of names from contributors from American. And there were like eight pages of contributors from Northwest and United. We had UPS guys who would pick up extra trips and donate the pay from the entire trip to our fund. At the end of the strike, there was less than half a page of donations from Delta pilots.

And obviously nothing was required. But when you factor that in with the fact that your MEC chairman said "F U" when we tried to define struck work, and that we did get heckled by Delta pilots while our guys were walking on the picket lines, it's not too hard to understand why there were hard feelings.

I have no trouble understanding why there are hard feelings between the two groups.

 

[tblosser]

Oh, the MEC's letter may very well have impacted Comair's decision. But I'm 99% convinced that decision came down to the System Chief Pilot. I don't know if he's even still at Comair, but I recall Steve Briner saying he wouldn't hire anybody if they wouldn't resign their number. He mentioned training costs for a guy who was guaranteed to be a short-timer.

We had guys on furlough for over 5 years. Is that a short-timer at Comair?

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Absolutely not. That company was such a craphole, I'd say 5 years is an eternity. However, when Briner made that statement, surely noone knew how bad things were going to be. I seem to recall 14 months being thrown about as the magic number for Comair getting back what they invested in training a new-hire. Anyone know if that's accurate?

We had guys on furlough for over 5 years. Is that a short-timer at Comair?

 

[Noserider76]

Excellent point. Seems like every time I fly JFK-DTW, ATL-DTW, or ATL-MSP we have a Delta guy riding the jumpseat or sitting in the back. How good of you to look after our best interests and seek to prevent those guys from flooding to "our" bases and affecting "our" quality of life. We absolutely need to fence those guys off of bidding DTW and MSP.

It works both ways, chief, and there's far more Delta guys itching to bid away from ATL and into the Heartland than you care to admit.

No problem at all. I'm all for protecting everyone equally. The last thing we need to do is give the company free reign to move equipment and create more uncertainty in our lives. I'm for fences around your bases and equipment as well. No Delta guy should be able to move into DTW and move you down your list or delay your upgrade during a generous transition period.

 

[Speedbird34]

It is funny to hear how a junior guy think he deserves and is entitled to the world... To say that you would leave DAL if you have to fly a DC9 is disingenuous at best. Are you a pilot? Do you REALLY like flying planes? Your comments show different..

Well JAMBRO this is a free world and we all have choices and expectations. The new breed of pilot getting hired selects where he wants to go fly from a big list of choices from every continent out there. We considered equipment, bases, culture, lifestyle, pay, growth and a few more things. We just do not take whatever is out there.
We also do not just respect the opinion of a guy who is in a major before us because he got there first. We have many of our past first officers flying there years before we get there.
You have your expectations and I have mine. You may be a small minded folk for all I know. To everyone his own. I can choose to leave any company if it changes too much and I realise it does not meet my expectations.
Right now we have new hires who have quit Delta for better prospects in their opinion.
I have seen a 11 year B757 FO quit Northwest. This are all personal choices and have little to do with love of flying.
I will not have a crap job because I love flying. At a stage if we do not do this right we would have guys leave in droves for the better options elsewhere in the world.
My buddy brother makes $18,000 a month with everything paid for housing etc flying captain on a Global express for Exxon in UAE. His wife is a doctor and almost their entire income is saved and tax free in DXB.
They are very young millionaire couple after a few years of employment.
We need to chase that dream here in the USA and stop bickering over flying some old airplanes in a rapidly developing international aviation market.
Instead of seniority is forever and all those slogans.
We should be fighting for excellent work rules and conditions of employment forever.
The last guy at an Airline should be happy to be there or the company is almost worthless in my opinion.
I repeat right now the most junior guy is happy to be at this Delta and it should be that way at the new Delta. Every single pilots wellbeing taken care of.
You do not see a fedex, UPS, Southwest, Emirates, Cathay ,British Airways, Air france, KLM, JAL, South African, Virgin Atlantic etc pilot unhappy with his job because he is at the bottom of the list.
We need to start considering changing our bidding system to one that reduces the advantages of seniority quite a bit and shares the pain. Everyone does a month of reserve. Like the Emirates model where you have five rotating groups. You have your seniority withen the group but each group ends up on top and picks schdules first and then goes to the bottom and rotates its way back up. Everyone does a month of reserve and every pilot starts at $96,000 per annum tax free and gets free housing fully furnish and this does not include perdeim, tax free car loans, free tuition amounting to $11,000 per annum for each kid. It does not include the fact that they had a profit sharing of 3.5(three and a half) months pay last year for every employee.
Guys wake up and smell the roses. That is the competition folks and those are the standards. Even though you may not believe it as you scramble to keep sub standard pilot employment the world is suffering a global shortage of qualified pilots.

 

[ASADFW7]

Uhm is it just me, or if everyone else begins to furlough won't DL and NWA announce furloughs as well. It would follow the same logic regards of the merger. It looks like they are in a tough position being held to their statements of no furloughs in the merger when perhaps they desperately need them as well to reduce costs right now.

 

[Raskal]

Uhm is it just me, or if everyone else begins to furlough won't DL and NWA announce furloughs as well. It would follow the same logic regards of the merger. It looks like they are in a tough position being held to their statements of no furloughs in the merger when perhaps they desperately need them as well to reduce costs right now.

Whoa, easy there Mr. Logic...this conversation is for almost baseless opinions and emotions only! Mod, please do something with this guy...

 

[General Lee]

Uhm is it just me, or if everyone else begins to furlough won't DL and NWA announce furloughs as well. It would follow the same logic regards of the merger. It looks like they are in a tough position being held to their statements of no furloughs in the merger when perhaps they desperately need them as well to reduce costs right now.

What about when you are still getting airplanes? These planes will fuel your INTL expansion to gain some needed revenue, so would you park those? I think there is a perfect storm here. Delta doesn't want to "politically spook" any politicians into thinking that the merger won't work, so they are doing whatever they can to not make waves. Does that mean they won't furlough later? Probably not. But, when it comes around to the Spring and Summer, those are our busiest times. So, if there aren't any announcements by Xmas, then it might be too expensive for DL to furlough and then retrain before our busy seasons. At least that is what it looks like SO FAR. Also, we are getting those new planes (6 777s that need close to 38 pilots each, and 6 737-700s), and the NWA pilots will benefit from our rules when the joint contract is created, and that will necessitate new pilots for them immediately, or atleast provide some sort of cushion I would think....It will be interesting, and fingers crossed...



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ASADFW7]

Gen, I understand. Something still has to give. Time will tell what it is.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ASADFW7:

DAL and NWA came out of bankruptcy staffed about as low as they could go. NWA's pilot shortage made headlines last year and they have not hired many since then.

Some categories at Delta are still very short.

I think we are on the bubble. Right now there are no furloughs planned. If oil trends the direction I expect with the election Delta and NWA both could independently be hiring before the merger. If jet A remains at $170 with the crack spread then we are all in serious trouble.

SWA will have to renew their hedges at some point. Hedges just take the uncertainty out of prices, they don't actually lower the price over the long term.

You made an excellent call, so did the Delta folks. This is going to effect everyone.